RE: General Vikes Talk (Full Version)

All Forums >> [The Minnesota Vikings] >> Vikes Talk



Message

Todd M -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/7/2024 5:30:21 PM)

That’s a solid counter beo.



beo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/7/2024 5:32:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

That’s a solid counter beo.


Wouldn't it be nice to have a list of past drafts and be able to say HELL YEAH i'd trade for 2 of those guys...

Of course, we wouldn't probably be having this discussion then.



Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/7/2024 5:50:03 PM)

Jets will end up with a weaker opponent SOS than us so will pick ahead of us. Just a couple of games today flipped the slight advantage we had, but the results of those games were needed to just get to tied records. And Cincy beating Clev.

Best hope to gain a spot is with LV currently beating Denver. Chi still in it vs GB.

I think Raiders win and we'll pick 11th.



Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/7/2024 5:52:13 PM)

If Dobbs didn't go nuts and win those two games, we'd be tied with the NYG at #5. Loved those games, what a story... but we need a QB!



Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/7/2024 6:09:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

For the shop JJ crowd...
(which is a legit strategy, he could be at his peak value this off season, save cap, etc... I get it)

Here is my counter argument.

Say you get a couple of 1st round picks.

2015. Trae Waynes
2016. Laquon Treadwell
2017 no pick
2018 Mike Hughes
2019 Garrett Bradbury
2020 Justin Jefferson
2020 Jeff gladney
2021 Darrisaw
2022 Cine
2023 Addison

Are there 2 guys on that list that trade for JJ?
Your chances of missing are SIGNIFICANT.

JJ is a known.
JJ produces even with Mullins at qb.

Get a cheap qb (rookie would be my first choice).
The expense of JJ is palatable with a rookie qb.

I don't know that you improve the team by getting rid of your best young player.



Spielman's picks have no bearing on having multiple extra first round picks in the future. And it appears Kwesi's second draft is an improvement on the initial one... but then again it's not that difficult to climb a bit higher than a collective rotting trash heap of draft busts.

Ultimately, assuming fair value (however that could be determined) of a JJ trade, the variability of the success/failure of the picks is THE barometer. Perhaps one way to roughly view that ahead of time for us armchair GMs is to discount the draft haul by say 40% (one could even translate to points and picks via the draft value charts). Also, it would be nice to take the cap savings from JJ and apply it to a pair of CBs but stuff like that is a gamble because they don't often become available.

So maybe the return of trading JJ isn't all that.

I don't think JJ is worth 1/7th of the cap (yes depending on the structure and maybe less over time), but predict the team extends him before the draft which means we have to go with a rookie QB. Not really a prediction because it's the likely outcome. The numbers suggest that. Kwesi's tenure is going to be based on a QB decision in his third year. The year he releases his well worn KFC security blanket... or more aptly his chewed up binky.



Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/7/2024 6:23:25 PM)

We're picking 11th.



Ricky J -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/7/2024 6:55:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

2016. Laquon Treadwell




Really surprised to see him still in uniform on Sat.



joejitsu -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/7/2024 7:39:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

2016. Laquon Treadwell




Really surprised to see him still in uniform on Sat.


I noticed that, too! Amazing. He let a pass go right through his hands. It reminded me of the old days with us.



Ricky J -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/7/2024 7:49:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joejitsu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

2016. Laquon Treadwell




Really surprised to see him still in uniform on Sat.


I noticed that, too! Amazing. He let a pass go right through his hands. It reminded me of the old days with us.


Pretty good gig if you can get it. Most certainly wouldnt have made that kind of money as a teacher.



David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/7/2024 8:35:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

For the shop JJ crowd...
(which is a legit strategy, he could be at his peak value this off season, save cap, etc... I get it)

Here is my counter argument.

Say you get a couple of 1st round picks.

2015. Trae Waynes
2016. Laquon Treadwell
2017 no pick
2018 Mike Hughes
2019 Garrett Bradbury
2020 Justin Jefferson
2020 Jeff gladney
2021 Darrisaw
2022 Cine
2023 Addison

Are there 2 guys on that list that trade for JJ?
Your chances of missing are SIGNIFICANT.

JJ is a known.
JJ produces even with Mullins at qb.

Get a cheap qb (rookie would be my first choice).
The expense of JJ is palatable with a rookie qb.

I don't know that you improve the team by getting rid of your best young player.


This is a fantastic post. I think we need to add in one more thing to it though. If we trade JJ we don’t just get the draft picks we also get the cap space which equals even more players. The 30 mil in space could equal a great guard and a decent corner.



beo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/7/2024 9:12:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

For the shop JJ crowd...
(which is a legit strategy, he could be at his peak value this off season, save cap, etc... I get it)

Here is my counter argument.

Say you get a couple of 1st round picks.

2015. Trae Waynes
2016. Laquon Treadwell
2017 no pick
2018 Mike Hughes
2019 Garrett Bradbury
2020 Justin Jefferson
2020 Jeff gladney
2021 Darrisaw
2022 Cine
2023 Addison

Are there 2 guys on that list that trade for JJ?
Your chances of missing are SIGNIFICANT.

JJ is a known.
JJ produces even with Mullins at qb.

Get a cheap qb (rookie would be my first choice).
The expense of JJ is palatable with a rookie qb.

I don't know that you improve the team by getting rid of your best young player.


This is a fantastic post. I think we need to add in one more thing to it though. If we trade JJ we don’t just get the draft picks we also get the cap space which equals even more players. The 30 mil in space could equal a great guard and a decent corner.


Very true... that is the other side of the coin... adding players with money saved on moving JJ.

However, I'd bet that history might say FA additions are 50/50 chance of working out as well.
(meaning you sign 2 significant contracts... one seems to pay off, one is disappointing)

Would have to look into that more I guess.



Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/8/2024 9:22:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

For the shop JJ crowd...
(which is a legit strategy, he could be at his peak value this off season, save cap, etc... I get it)

Here is my counter argument.

Say you get a couple of 1st round picks.

2015. Trae Waynes
2016. Laquon Treadwell
2017 no pick
2018 Mike Hughes
2019 Garrett Bradbury
2020 Justin Jefferson
2020 Jeff gladney
2021 Darrisaw
2022 Cine
2023 Addison

Are there 2 guys on that list that trade for JJ?
Your chances of missing are SIGNIFICANT.

JJ is a known.
JJ produces even with Mullins at qb.

Get a cheap qb (rookie would be my first choice).
The expense of JJ is palatable with a rookie qb.

I don't know that you improve the team by getting rid of your best young player.


This is a fantastic post. I think we need to add in one more thing to it though. If we trade JJ we don’t just get the draft picks we also get the cap space which equals even more players. The 30 mil in space could equal a great guard and a decent corner.


Very true... that is the other side of the coin... adding players with money saved on moving JJ.

However, I'd bet that history might say FA additions are 50/50 chance of working out as well.
(meaning you sign 2 significant contracts... one seems to pay off, one is disappointing)

Would have to look into that more I guess.


Another thing to add---WR is easier to find than QB and the Line positions. I absolutley love watching JJ but if someone wanted to send a haul of picks and players for JJ...there would be pause.



Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/8/2024 9:27:07 AM)

However, I'd bet that history might say FA additions are 50/50 chance of working out as well.
(meaning you sign 2 significant contracts... one seems to pay off, one is disappointing)

That's my general impression, although with zero data to back it up.

And their performance and value are both subjective. Take Murphy for example. 2 yrs, 17 million. He plays IMO like a bare minimum starter, but his salary isn't outlandish. So while he isn't helping the team reach the SB, perhaps we are getting our money's worth and he'd be considered a successful signing.

Plus, it's difficult to determine the real cost of free agents until the contract is expired. Za Smith is an example. No way was he going to play out year 3 of his contract here. He didn't even last for two years.



Daniel Lee Young -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/8/2024 10:11:46 AM)

I can’t see the point of pouring more money into the rathole of KFC, given the needs we have to address.. JJ

Three IOL
3 min CB
3min DL
2 LB

I mean, really, our defense was decimated, and exposed at the end of the season..

Points allowed off the charts..

The OL is a mash unit in critical care.

Give 20% of the cap to KFC?

Insanity.



fmaltes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/8/2024 10:43:56 AM)

Justin Jefferson is a generational player. We won the lottery here. You don't trade him for more lottery tickets. THis is like talking about trading Michael Jorden or Wayne Gretzky at their prime. You just don't do it. If they were stupid enough to trade JJ like we traded Moss, I will quit being a Vikings fan and I have been a fan for 57 years. JJ is like Giannis of the Bucks (I am a bucks fan). As a Bucks fan, I waited 50 years for such a player. The JJ discussion would be like trading Giannis. In terms of what will they actually do, they will sign JJ to a contract that makes him the highest paid WR in the league the same way they made Hoc the highest paid TE. That is the right move. Second, the salary cap is a fantasy number that can always be pushed into the future IF YOU HAVE COOPERATIVE PLAYERS. Essentially, every year you delay a cap hit, you reduce its actual hit by around 8-10% because of the expected annual increases in the salary cap. Kirk Cousins will have a current legacy cap hit of around $28 million. The "net cost" in 2024 if we sign him for $40 million is $12 million. That is not an unreasonable cost for even a bridge QB. Third, a lot of what Flores did was with smoke and mirrors because he had little talent to work with. This is a huge problem that can only be fixed through SEVERAL good drafts, not free agency. A strong offense can hopefully give us some hope and entertainment while we work to upgrade the overall talent of the team especially on defense. The place to get salary cap savings is by getting rid of Harrison Smith, Oniel and Phillips and gamble on developing young drafted players. That is a big gamble. A tougher question is whether we decide that Kwesi and KOC are the right team to lead this long-term rebuild.



Jeff Jesser -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/8/2024 10:45:55 AM)

I agree Dan. I don't think anyone would argue (outside of the chance that either Penix/Daniels/rookie comes in and lights it up) that he gives us the best chance for the next 2 years but who cares? Best chance at what? Sneaking in to the playoffs and getting smoked??

He has 1 playoff win in 6 years. Move on and eat the cap for next year. We aren't doing anything anyway next year.

As much as I love what Hunter can do, let him go too. KAM was stupid not to trade him. Can he still produce for 2-3 years? Probably but again, so what? We have a 12-16 sack guy on a team that can barely make the playoffs? Big whoop.

I would also do one of the following depending on what they do with QB.

A. You get Pinex: Keep O'Neil and trade Darrisaw
B. You stay with some form of a RHQB. Sign Darrisaw to an extension and resign Quesenberry. Trade O'Neil.

We need to start thinking 2-3 years down the line and stop with this bullshit that we are 1 piece away.



Richard Neussendorfer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/8/2024 10:55:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

I agree Dan. I don't think anyone would argue (outside of the chance that either Penix/Daniels/rookie comes in and lights it up) that he gives us the best chance for the next 2 years but who cares? Best chance at what? Sneaking in to the playoffs and getting smoked??

He has 1 playoff win in 6 years. Move on and eat the cap for next year. We aren't doing anything anyway next year.

As much as I love what Hunter can do, let him go too. KAM was stupid not to trade him. Can he still produce for 2-3 years? Probably but again, so what? We have a 12-16 sack guy on a team that can barely make the playoffs? Big whoop.

I would also do one of the following depending on what they do with QB.

A. You get Pinex: Keep O'Neil and trade Darrisaw
B. You stay with some form of a RHQB. Sign Darrisaw to an extension and resign Quesenberry. Trade O'Neil.

We need to start thinking 2-3 years down the line and stop with this bullshit that we are 1 piece away.

Excellent post Jeff!



Mark Anderson -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/8/2024 10:59:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fmaltes

Justin Jefferson is a generational player. We won the lottery here. You don't trade him for more lottery tickets. THis is like talking about trading Michael Jorden or Wayne Gretzky at their prime. You just don't do it. If they were stupid enough to trade JJ like we traded Moss, I will quit being a Vikings fan and I have been a fan for 57 years. JJ is like Giannis of the Bucks (I am a bucks fan). As a Bucks fan, I waited 50 years for such a player. The JJ discussion would be like trading Giannis. In terms of what will they actually do, they will sign JJ to a contract that makes him the highest paid WR in the league the same way they made Hoc the highest paid TE. That is the right move. Second, the salary cap is a fantasy number that can always be pushed into the future IF YOU HAVE COOPERATIVE PLAYERS. Essentially, every year you delay a cap hit, you reduce its actual hit by around 8-10% because of the expected annual increases in the salary cap. Kirk Cousins will have a current legacy cap hit of around $28 million. The "net cost" in 2024 if we sign him for $40 million is $12 million. That is not an unreasonable cost for even a bridge QB. Third, a lot of what Flores did was with smoke and mirrors because he had little talent to work with. This is a huge problem that can only be fixed through SEVERAL good drafts, not free agency. A strong offense can hopefully give us some hope and entertainment while we work to upgrade the overall talent of the team especially on defense. The place to get salary cap savings is by getting rid of Harrison Smith, Oniel and Phillips and gamble on developing young drafted players. That is a big gamble. A tougher question is whether we decide that Kwesi and KOC are the right team to lead this long-term rebuild.

I think we all agree QB is the most important position.

Why trade away a generational talent who will help our new young QBOTF develop? It doesn't make sense. The cap will go up every year and eventually we will be out of the dead cap problem we have. Pay JJ

If we need capital to go up and get Daniels or Penix, dip into the future drafts, maybe throw in O'Neill.



Jeff Jesser -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/8/2024 11:03:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: fmaltes

Justin Jefferson is a generational player. We won the lottery here. You don't trade him for more lottery tickets. THis is like talking about trading Michael Jorden or Wayne Gretzky at their prime. You just don't do it. If they were stupid enough to trade JJ like we traded Moss, I will quit being a Vikings fan and I have been a fan for 57 years. JJ is like Giannis of the Bucks (I am a bucks fan). As a Bucks fan, I waited 50 years for such a player. The JJ discussion would be like trading Giannis. In terms of what will they actually do, they will sign JJ to a contract that makes him the highest paid WR in the league the same way they made Hoc the highest paid TE. That is the right move. Second, the salary cap is a fantasy number that can always be pushed into the future IF YOU HAVE COOPERATIVE PLAYERS. Essentially, every year you delay a cap hit, you reduce its actual hit by around 8-10% because of the expected annual increases in the salary cap. Kirk Cousins will have a current legacy cap hit of around $28 million. The "net cost" in 2024 if we sign him for $40 million is $12 million. That is not an unreasonable cost for even a bridge QB. Third, a lot of what Flores did was with smoke and mirrors because he had little talent to work with. This is a huge problem that can only be fixed through SEVERAL good drafts, not free agency. A strong offense can hopefully give us some hope and entertainment while we work to upgrade the overall talent of the team especially on defense. The place to get salary cap savings is by getting rid of Harrison Smith, Oniel and Phillips and gamble on developing young drafted players. That is a big gamble. A tougher question is whether we decide that Kwesi and KOC are the right team to lead this long-term rebuild.

I think we all agree QB is the most important position.

Why trade away a generational talent who will help our new young QBOTF develop? It doesn't make sense. The cap will go up every year and eventually we will be out of the dead cap problem we have. Pay JJ

If we need capital to go up and get Daniels or Penix, dip into the future drafts, maybe throw in O'Neill.




That's the thing with this team. We are setup to succeed with a young QB. Look at the talent on O?

JJ
Addison
Hock (assuming he recovers). We were all down on him to start the year but when he went down, he lead the league for TE's with catches and yards
2 good tackles should we chose to keep them

There are teams that would kill for that talent on O.



Jeff Jesser -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/8/2024 11:08:52 AM)

Non roster wise my biggest fear, moving forward, is KOC. I'm pretty shocked at the year he had. Maybe it was Zimmer fatigue but I was super geeked going in to year 2 with him after what I saw from year 1.

He was building a culture, was somewhat innovative, had pretty good in game situational instincts ect....

Year 2? He basically turned in Chilly with his "KAO if you run it my way". Conservative one play, over the top risky the next. They talked in the offseason how they would prioritize the run game, signed Oliver ect and just pretty much abandoned it early.



David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/8/2024 11:15:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

I agree Dan. I don't think anyone would argue (outside of the chance that either Penix/Daniels/rookie comes in and lights it up) that he gives us the best chance for the next 2 years but who cares? Best chance at what? Sneaking in to the playoffs and getting smoked??

He has 1 playoff win in 6 years. Move on and eat the cap for next year. We aren't doing anything anyway next year.

As much as I love what Hunter can do, let him go too. KAM was stupid not to trade him. Can he still produce for 2-3 years? Probably but again, so what? We have a 12-16 sack guy on a team that can barely make the playoffs? Big whoop.

I would also do one of the following depending on what they do with QB.

A. You get Pinex: Keep O'Neil and trade Darrisaw
B. You stay with some form of a RHQB. Sign Darrisaw to an extension and resign Quesenberry. Trade O'Neil.

We need to start thinking 2-3 years down the line and stop with this bullshit that we are 1 piece away.


Solid point I hadn't considered.



marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/8/2024 11:20:15 AM)

IF they drafted Penix, I would move Darrisaw to RT and trade O'Neill.



Todd M -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/8/2024 11:28:22 AM)

Michael Jordon and Wayne Gretzky won a lot of championships in their prime. JJ’s appeared in one playoff game, didn’t do much, and we lost.

Picks to land you a franchise QB and let’s say a starting corner would do a lot more for this team.



David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/8/2024 11:28:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

IF they drafted Penix, I would move Darrisaw to RT and trade O'Neill.


I know you think all offensive line positions are swappable, but Darrisaw has only every played LT dating back to HS.

There is no guarantee he's any good on the right side.



David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/8/2024 11:34:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Michael Jordon and Wayne Gretzky won a lot of championships in their prime. JJ’s appeared in one playoff game, didn’t do much, and we lost.

Picks to land you a franchise QB and let’s say a starting corner would do a lot more for this team.


Michael Jordan won his first Playoff series in his 4th season at age 24 before getting spanked in the 2nd round.

His first 3 season he was 1-9 in Playoff Games.

Won his first Championship at 27.



Page: <<   < prev  271 272 [273] 274 275   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5.5 Unicode