RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (Full Version)

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Toby Stumbo -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 4:47:54 PM)

http://www.patriots.com/news/index.c...=27642&pcid=41 STATEMENT FROM PATRIOTS HEAD COACH BILL BELICHICK "Earlier this week, I spoke with Commissioner Goodell about a videotaping procedure during last Sunday's game and my interpretation of the rules. At this point, we have not been notified of the league's ruling. Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players. Following the league’s decision, I will have further comment.”



Jeff Jesser -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 4:59:48 PM)

and my interpretation of the rules Let me translate. I am BB, I am above them.



Guest -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 5:05:23 PM)

[quote="John Childress"][quote="Kurtis Scaletta"]Dennis Green accused the Giants of doing it, and it was dismissed as him being a sore loser. Hm... maybe he was right after all.[/quote] I bet they did do it also. They knew everything in that game. No way was that team 41-0 better than us The NFL has a real serious problem - just like the betting ref in the NBA and the juice in Baseball Sports are falling apart[/quote] Yes John, I remember that 41-0 killing. NO WAY does a team hold our team to 0 points!! No way, UNLESS they had our radio signals. I remember I got lambasted on the strib board for believing this was a possibility, but NOW it could have REALLY HAPPENED. I really hope the Pats get major PUNISHMENT!! Lose TWO FIRST ROUNDERS and a SECOND ROUNDER. This will be fair. Maybe...



Toby Stumbo -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 5:08:25 PM)

We need Marty over here :)



Jeff Jesser -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 5:08:46 PM)

There may have been something more to that 41-0 thumping but I'll lay the blame squarely on us. We were down 14/zippy before the offense even hit the field. That, plus the fact that Moss got hurt right away, doomed us. We were totally unprepared for that game. Blame: Green Defensive Coord Injury to Super Freak Duante was the only person who gave effort that day.



Jake Carlson -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 5:12:03 PM)

[quote="Easy E"]To me the baseball equivalent would be similar to planting people in the stands with cameras and mikes at a baseball game, and relaying them into a microphone in the hitters ear. "OK, Pujols, Clemens is going to be throwing you a fastball high and away on this pitch, get ready"..... that's just not sports, IMO. If Pujols sneaks a peek to see where the catcher is setting up, or if his teammate on second tries to signal to him, that's one thing, just like Sean Salisbury trying to read Buddy Ryan's lips. You start using instant technology to let you know every move your opponent is making, and that's just wrong. That just totally destroys competeive fairness. [/quote] I agree with this. There are certain things throughout the course of games that you have to do in order to disguise/hide things from the naked eye/ear and that's part of competing, but it's completely unethical and low-class to bring technology into play in these areas. What's next? Wire-tapping? Audio enhancers to point at opposing coaches? Bugging opposing team's locker room? Putting audio in every player's helmet in order to run a flawless no huddle? Belicek seems like the kind of weasel that would try and bribe some ball boys on the other sidelines to spy for him. Goodell needs to come down hard on them for this in order to nip it in the bud before it does become something bigger for the entire league.



Guest -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 5:13:05 PM)

[quote="Jeff Jesser"]There may have been something more to that 41-0 thumping but I'll lay the blame squarely on us. We were down 14/zippy before the offense even hit the field. That, plus the fact that Moss got hurt right away, doomed us. We were totally unprepared for that game. Blame: Green Defensive Coord Injury to Super Freak Duante was the only person who gave effort that day.[/quote] I am not saying our team should not take any responsibility, BUT only RECENTLY Motorolla and crew engineered their HEADSETS with encryption to make it impossible for opposing teams to steal communication. At least this is what a NFL show discussed. Take it for what it is worth.



Jeff Jesser -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 5:17:44 PM)

I'm still pissed about that "effort" (and I use that lightly). Sorry. :evil:



Jeff Jesser -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 5:18:57 PM)

Cheating has always been around and always will be around. The funniest, IMO, was when opposing teams would send up hookers and blow to LT's hotel room to try and tire him out. He would still end up with about 10 QB hurries.



Guest -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 5:23:20 PM)

[quote="Jeff Jesser"]Cheating has always been around and always will be around. The funniest, IMO, was when opposing teams would send up hookers and blow to LT's hotel room to try and tire him out. He would still end up with about 10 QB hurries.[/quote] **************************************************** That's because he always saved a little blow for game day.



Steven JL -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 5:25:51 PM)

"My interpretation of the rules" ??!!?? I see another "depends on what the definition of the word 'is' is" defense... :roll: You see we weren't videotaping the Jets because it's a digital camcorder - no tape. What a weasel. They used to be a team I was growing to like - then the petty crap with their injury report, then hammering us at home last year in a game where it seemed like they knew exactly what we were doing, then the Childress thing, now this. When Brian brought up the Nixon analogy two days ago it seemed extreme but I think this guy is just as paranoid and willing to bend the rules as ole tricky dick.



Kurtis -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 5:29:10 PM)

[quote="Jeff Jesser"]There may have been something more to that 41-0 thumping but I'll lay the blame squarely on us. We were down 14/zippy before the offense even hit the field. That, plus the fact that Moss got hurt right away, doomed us. We were totally unprepared for that game. Blame: Green Defensive Coord Injury to Super Freak Duante was the only person who gave effort that day.[/quote] I merely speculated that Dennis Green might have been right about the Giants stealing signals, not that it was the reason the Vikings lost (and I don't even say the Giants did do that, just that it was treated as a nutcase conspiracy theory at the time, and it turns out that this kind of thing does go on all the time). Whether it's the reason the Vikings lost is another issue, but the two points that I will make are that, A., it is not a justification for cheating that you would have won anyway, and B., few people consider you to have really "won" once you've been caught cheating. The rules of sports have become so complicated that there's no clear sense of where the line between rule-breaking and cheating is. In particular I don't understand why the punitive measures don't really compensate the team that was cheated... I don't quite understand why there's no talk of simply forfeiting the game. It makes no sense to me that the Patriots would lose draft picks and pay fines, but the Jets still have the L and the Patriots the W.



Guest -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 5:40:16 PM)

I'm not sure what real advantage was gained here. Now, apparently everybody says it's common knowledge that the Pats were doing this for a long time. If that's the case, how stupid would a coach have to be to not use this against them? Decoy signals, dummy signals, multiple signal callers, etc...



Steven JL -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 5:56:53 PM)

[quote="Pete C"]I'm not sure what real advantage was gained here. Now, apparently everybody says it's common knowledge that the Pats were doing this for a long time. If that's the case, how stupid would a coach have to be to not use this against them? Decoy signals, dummy signals, multiple signal callers, etc...[/quote] Well how well known it was is debatable. It seem there were suspicions but perhaps people didn't realize how sophisticated it was. I think the worst case scenario for advantage gained would be this: You have a videographer for the signals, someone who records the defense pre-snap and post-snap (stunts, blitzes, coverages, etc), and an analyst or two who are experienced at matching up and translating the signals to match the outcomes. This team of 3 or 4 work thusly: 1) Videographer and pre-post-snap recorder start collecting information during each defensive series by the opponents 2) As this data is collected, it is transferred to the analyst(s) who being piecing together the matches. 3) As the game progresses the signals are decoded. A determination is made at halftime if changes have been made - it's likely that they won't be too complicated or the players won't follow the changes. 4) Once the decoding process is more accurate, someone in the booth gets on headsets with the offense and watches the defensive signals as they come in. 5) This is relayed to the person on the sidelines who relays it to the QB through the helmet mike. i.e Left side stunt and WSLB blitz 6) By this time the QB is already at the line so he takes this new information to determine if an audible is required. Sometimes the audible may only change the protection scheme. This seems feasible. Difficult? Not really but it would require great timing and training with the QB and the coaching staff. In a close game getting this right 2-3 times could be the difference between winning and losing.



JamieH -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 6:06:05 PM)

[quote="Steven JL"][quote="John Childress"]I don't think you can overestimate the importance of this issue. Have they been cheating throughout their Super Bowl runs? IS this why Brady has been nearly flawless in the playoffs - he knows what the defense is going to do? Now it COULD turn out to be minor but it also could be a bigger scandal than the NBA ref. The Pats could be the Barry Bonds of the NFL where no one respects their record any more because it was achieved outside of accepted fair play. Gooddell is in the hot seat. If he doesn't come down hard on them then he is a fraud.[/quote] Amen. I think he needs to put Belichick in the same spot he put VIck and Pac. A 'on the record' here's your chance to come clean interview early (and I mean today). Demand a full acccounting of what was done, how long it's gone on, how they used it, and who was involved. Then begin an investigation just as thorough with the same FBI caliber personnel to dig up every detail they can about this. Review sideline footage of old games looking for this videographer, talk to the dozens of former Pats players and personnel who would have knowledge of this, and leave no stone unturned. Then after THAT investigation make a determination about Belichick. If he lied to the commissioner this week in his one chance for mea culpa hit him very very hard. Like 8 game suspension, no contact with the club, 2 first round draft choice hard. PacMan is a thug, Vick is a sadist with dogs but this goes to the integrity of the game and directly to the legacy of the greatest team (perhaps ever) and certainly of the last 20 years. The league and fans must have a full and complete investigation. If Goodell does this and shows consistentcy between this and Vick/Pac/Tank he will set himself up as an awesome commissioner and steward of the game. If he doesn't he'll be seen as a fraud.[/quote] I agree...but the NFL wants to stop short of that. They have to be strict enough to shut everyone up.



Jim Frenette -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 6:16:10 PM)

And to think he tried this on a coach that was on his staff just a year and half ago.



Lynn G. -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 6:38:05 PM)

I wonder if the other coaches got together and decided they were going to have to put an end to this once and for all. The way to end it was to expose him. They all voted and Mangini got the nod as the guy to do it. :D



Jake Carlson -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 6:41:13 PM)

Belichick is just making himself more of a jackass everyday. They already cut Herron!
quote:

Vikings coach Brad Childress basically accused the Patriots of signing linebacker David Herron out of spite last week, and the Pats did little to dispel that notion by cutting him yesterday. According to an interview Childress conducted with a Minneapolis radio station on Sept. 2, he received a threatening phone call from Patriots coach Bill Belichick, who had gotten wind that the Vikings were preparing to sign tight end Garrett Mills. The Pats wanted Mills, who they had cut, for their practice squad, and Belichick said that if the Vikings signed him, then the Pats might have to sign some Vikings. -- Boston Herald



John Childress -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 10:55:12 PM)

Talk about irony Randy Moss is villified his whole career. He is hosed on calls constantly. He finally gets a trade to a "made" team so he can be the beneficiary of the sometimes shady refs and what happens? the Pats become the bad boys of the NFL!!! and he had nothing to do with it



Lynn G. -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/12/2007 11:01:37 PM)

I thought of that too John. And everyone is talking about how Belichick's strong hand and absolute sense of integrity was going to straighten Randy out - and now it appears that what Belichick did was worse (from an integrity standpoint) than anything Moss is accused of doing.



Guest -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/13/2007 12:35:00 AM)

Great points John and Lynn. I was listening to NFL RADIO and heard a caller with the most complete description of this Patriot mess. He said, "IF Belechick is found to be guilty of this rule breaking, then he should suffer at least what M. Vick has gone through in terms of penalties as in an indefinite suspesion." The radio hosts tried to hold the caller back and say that this "cheating" had no effects of the Jet game. However, the caller quickly squelched this defense. He stated that the Jet game was irrelevant and what only matters is if cheating indeed occurred. Cheating is cheating and it does not matter who does it and whatever ends up being the outcome, this should play no importance. My take is this... Does ANYONE REALLY believe that this is Belechick's FIRST TIME at cheating? Maybe Brad Childress was trying to let the media and public in on somethihig that has been occuring for several years now. They did square off in the Super Bowl a few years ago. Didn't he say that Belechick was not honest or something to that effect? The guy and the Pats should be punished so that NO COACH or STAFF would ever think about doing such things to gain any competitive advantage period. Goodell MUST follow through on this.



Easy E -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/13/2007 1:18:02 AM)

[quote="Pete C"]I'm not sure what real advantage was gained here. Now, apparently everybody says it's common knowledge that the Pats were doing this for a long time. If that's the case, how stupid would a coach have to be to not use this against them? Decoy signals, dummy signals, multiple signal callers, etc...[/quote] Pete, it's scary when you have the same take as Sean Salisbury, isn't it? Here's my deal. I think this was cheating, and wrong, and should be punished. I have heard a couple people say, now, "ah, it's not that big a deal and they didn't gain anything by doing it anyway, they would have beat them anyway..." First off, who cares, if it's cheating it's cheating. That's like saying "ah, who cares if the guy held, it didn't affect the play anyway". The NFL doesn't do that, a penalty is a penalty and cheating is cheating. The second thing, though, is.... WHY would Bill B go to all this trouble, and risk all this shame, fines, etc..... if there truly was no point in it?!?!? Everyone probably knows who the Sports Guy is and how to get to page 2, but here it is anyway. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070912 Look, even a die hard, extreme Bahstin apologist know it's a seedy thing to do. But it brings up a real connundrum. In an effort to convince themselves that there really wasn't a competetive advantage being gained, Patsy fans are going to have to convince themselves that their "genius" coach is really a dithering fool who risked his legacy and the leagacy of the Patsy's run, over something that didn't help them at all. Because he'd really have to be an idiot to keep doing this, when they know the NFL is pissed off and trying to stop it. And if he did it all the while knowing it gained him virtually nothing, he's one of the dumbest people in the histroy of sports. Do not be fooled. Bill B is a very smart guy. If he was doing it, it was for a damn good reason, you can bet he made a lot of good use out of this competetive advantage. He probably has a library of calls on every team in the leauge. One last point, the other apology Sean Steakman made for Bill B... a "smart" team would just change their signals anyway. Helllloooooo, that's the point of videotaping it, so that you know what the changed signal is. For crying out loud, it's hard enough to find 11 defenders that are all on the same page after an entire offseason, training camp and preseason that can keep the plays straight, can you imagine if you had to change signals every 5 minutes? I still say, since the Patriots argument and only defene is going to be "eh, it's not that big a deal, who cares if we knew the other teams plays, we'd have beaten them anyway", that the most suitable punishment is to allow every opponent they face that same advantage. Make sure they know what plays and coverages the Patriots are going to be in. We'll find out pretty quickly if it's an advantage or not.



Todd M -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/13/2007 1:30:39 AM)

The Pats - way worse than Barry Bonds.



Easy E -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/13/2007 1:40:10 AM)

[quote="Todd Mallett"]The Pats - way worse than Barry Bonds.[/quote] Especially since one of their captains, you know, admits to doing what everyone thinks Bonds did. I still find it amazing that people (meaning sports writers, ESPN, and senators) get all worked up about phd's in baseball, but could care less about the obvious abuse in football.



Guest -> RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (9/13/2007 2:02:49 AM)

[quote="Easy E"][quote="Pete C"]I'm not sure what real advantage was gained here. Now, apparently everybody says it's common knowledge that the Pats were doing this for a long time. If that's the case, how stupid would a coach have to be to not use this against them? Decoy signals, dummy signals, multiple signal callers, etc...[/quote] Pete, it's scary when you have the same take as Sean Salisbury, isn't it? Here's my deal. I think this was cheating, and wrong, and should be punished. I have heard a couple people say, now, "ah, it's not that big a deal and they didn't gain anything by doing it anyway, they would have beat them anyway..." First off, who cares, if it's cheating it's cheating. That's like saying "ah, who cares if the guy held, it didn't affect the play anyway". The NFL doesn't do that, a penalty is a penalty and cheating is cheating. The second thing, though, is.... WHY would Bill B go to all this trouble, and risk all this shame, fines, etc..... if there truly was no point in it?!?!? [/quote] ********************************************** I didn't say he shouldn't be punished, in fact, I think he should be. I'm saying, if this was common knowledge around the league, like people are saying now, it certainly could have been used against him by oppossing teams. Coaches tend to be paranoid, hell, they even hide their mouths when calling plays in fear of some gifted lip reader catching them from accross the field. To think they are not using decoy signals, multiple signal callers and dummy signals is naive. My point was that I don't think there was a big advantage gained. Rules were apparently violated and if guilty he should be punished. Personally, I'm more concerned about the allegations about the radio/frequency issues. If it is discovered that they were attempting to intercept or jam radio signals that would be a much bigger issue, IMO.



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