RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (Full Version)

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Stacey King -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/8/2008 8:58:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynn G.

So where did the talk about a tape of the Ram's walk through start?  It was made to sound as if Walsh had it.


Wild rumor.

Now the question is if these tapes Walsh sent were copies of the same ones the Pats turned over earlier and the NFL destroyed.

If they are the NFL can say, 'Nothing new here,' and try to move on.

Still fishy the NFL destroyed those tapes so quickly.



Lynn G. -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/8/2008 9:01:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stacey King



Still fishy the NFL destroyed those tapes so quickly.


At least in this case Walsh's attorney is keeping copies so the NFL can't destroy all evidence again.



Tim Cady -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/8/2008 12:22:42 PM)

Once again, I will say that I think this situation with the Patriots is about as unique as the Wolves signing Joe Smith and Mike Tice scalping tickets. Or the 49ers circumventing the salary cap at the end of their run.

I present this repost as evidence: Read the part about the best guy at stealing signals is an ex-Shottenheimer guy currently on Dungy's staff, Howard Mudd. Open this box and the Vikings might be able to make a case for deserving to be awarded a Super Bowl Trophy after all the other teams have to turn theirs back in.[&o]
Exerp from interview:

2008Jimmy Johnson thinks Spygate is overblownPosted by John Tomase at 10:58 am We originally posted this WFAN interview as having been conducted during Super Bowl week. It actually dates back to September. Regardless, it’s still interesting to note how commonplace former Cowboys coach Jimmy Johnson feels the use of cameras is by NFL teams. He admits he used them to steal signs all the time.Q: How about the spying thing Jimmy. You’re a coach does that bother you what Belichick did?JJ: Oh please. I’ve said it on our show. Eighteen years ago a scout for the Chiefs told me what they did, and he said what you need to do is just take your camera and you go and zoom in on the signal caller and that way you can sync it up. The problem is that if they’re not on the press box side you can’t do it from the press box, you have to do it from the sideline. This was 18 years ago.Q: You think the NFL came down too hard on them?JJ: No, no, I said it on the show. He was wrong for doing it for the simple reason that the league knew this was going on not just in New England but around the league. And the league sent out the memorandum to all of the teams saying you cannot do this. And so that’s when Bill Belichick was wrong. After he got the memorandum saying don’t do it any more, he did it.Q: Did you ever steal signals?JJ: Oh in a heartbeat, yeah. Yes I did.Q: Via video, Jimmy? Or no?JJ: Oh yeah, I did it with video and so did a lot of other teams in the league. Just to make sure that you could study it and take your time, because you’re going to play the other team the second time around. But a lot of coaches did it, this was commonplace.Q: But did you do it by taping the signal caller?JJ: Yeah.Q: Oh you did.JJ: That’s what I’m saying. I was saying one of Marty Schottenheimer’s scouts, Mark Hatley, who has passed away now, Mark told me that’s how they did it, and Howard Mudd their offensive line coach with Kansas City, who now coaches for Tony Dungy, he was the best in the entire league at stealing signals.Q: Where’d you put your guy who was videotaping? Where was he?JJ: My guy was up with my camera crew in the press box. So you’d just put an extra camera up with your camera crew in the press box who zoomed in on the signal callers. That’s the best way to do it, but anyway you can’t always do that because the press box camera crew might be on the same side as the opposing team. If they’re on the same side as the opposing team that’s when you need to do it from the sideline.

I know the news is slow, but we would have a better chance of proving the communication cheating, done by the Giants in 2001 NFC Chpmshp game as the reason we lost 41-0. Remember there those who leaked that the Giants were listening in to all our coaches, then anything substantial coming out of this.

Every team is believed to have tried to steal signals, this was Eric M. ratting out Bill B, cause he is just as big a puke as his mentor. I don't hear anyone else within the NFL crying for justice. It is called glass houses, folks.



Jake Carlson -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/8/2008 2:39:54 PM)

It's not surprising in the least that the Walsh tapes supposedly don't contain any "new evidence".  Did anyone believe that the big NFL money machine would let this go on much longer?!  The best thing for the league is for  Roger to appease the masses by meeting with Walsh so he can proceed to announce that this just confirms what they already know and then he can pat himself on the back while claiming they punished the Pats appropriately.  There was no doubt in my mind that the NFL was going to bury this no matter what they found, even if it meant making Matt Walsh's offshore bank account larger.  In my opinion, Roger's desire to make this entire incident go away is 1 million times stronger than his desire for truth!



djskillz -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/8/2008 5:58:12 PM)

I'm with you, Tim.

I could care less about this stuff.  It's really not that different than stealing signs in baseball, etc. to me.  Everyone's doing this stuff IMO.  The Pats just happened to get caught.

Let's move on.  The NFL has already made their point in my mind.  Move on and let's start talking about football again.



So.Mn.Fan -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/8/2008 6:00:17 PM)

Agreed.
Much ado about nuttin'.



Duane Sampson -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/10/2008 8:24:46 AM)

    Patriots Also Stole Offensive Signals
    Fri May 9, 2008

    ESPN's Mike Fish reports the Patriots Spygate tapes delivered via FedEx from Matt Walsh to NFL headquarters in New York on Thursday morning include evidence of an effort by New England to steal offensive signals, which would broaden the extent of the team's surveillance operation. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell and staff members began viewing the eight tapes within hours of their long-awaited delivery, in anticipation of Tuesday's scheduled interview with former Patriots video assistant Matt Walsh. As part of an indemnification pact reached last month with the league, Walsh agreed to turn over any videotapes or related materials he had from his tenure with the team. Perhaps the surprise entry on the list of videotaping documents Walsh turned over to the league was tape No. 3, labeled "OFF Signals" from New England's game against the Miami Dolphins on Oct. 7, 2001. That is the only tape labeled as such on a copy of the list obtained by ESPN.com. Walsh's attorney, Michael Levy, confirmed it was the lone footage in Walsh's possession of offensive coaches' signaling from the sidelines. "We don't know [about attempts to steal offensive signals] yet because we haven't looked at the tapes," NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said Thursday before the league had completed its review of the new evidence. "All we have is the list supplied last night [by Walsh's attorney]. One of them is labeled 'OFF signals.' None of the others are listed that way. Let us look at the tapes and we'll have more to say about that." Goodell is likely to quiz Walsh on these issues at their meeting scheduled for 7:30 a.m. Tuesday. Walsh is scheduled to travel to Washington later in the day to meet with Pennsylvania Sen. Arlen Specter, the ranking Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee.



djskillz -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/10/2008 10:50:30 PM)

[sm=yawn.gif][sm=yawn.gif][sm=yawn.gif]



Jake Carlson -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/11/2008 11:52:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Duane Sampson
     Walsh is scheduled to travel to Washington later in the day to meet with Pennsylvania Sen. Arlen Specter, the ranking Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee.




Isn't it wonderful to live in a time of overwhelming world peace and endless prosperity throughout our country so that our elected officials can focus their time and energy on the truly important things in life?!



Tim Cady -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/12/2008 2:09:03 PM)

I was thinking the same thing Jake! Is Spector an Eagle fan? Get over it Arlen! Work on the 1,000 other more important priorities that should be on your priority list.



Jeff Jesser -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/13/2008 11:57:57 AM)

He probably lost money on the games.  



Jim Frenette -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/14/2008 10:53:44 AM)

With all the hype of these new tapes would show something the NFL hadn't seen before and that Walsh had extra Info, it sure came down to a dud. Whay did it take so long for this whole process to take place and why was Walsh asking for protection? I'm betting he has a new off shore bank account



Lynn G. -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/14/2008 11:54:42 AM)

Good questions Jim.  And who was the person who leaked that there were tapes of the St. Louis walk-through?  The information must have seemed credible enough for the Boston Globe to run the story, but now they're apologizing to the Patriots.   Maybe the whole thing boiled down to a sour grapes vendetta.



Lynn G. -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/14/2008 11:58:02 AM)

I DO think it was funny that one of the pieces of information that was revealed was that someone in the Patriots organization was scalping Superbowl tickets.  [:D]

When Tice was caught, it was talked about that every team had someone who was in charge of brokering Superbowl tickets, but Tice was the only one charged.  I've said several times that there was someone on every team that owed Tice big time for taking the bullet and not squealing on the group.



Jake Carlson -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/14/2008 12:06:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Frenette

With all the hype of these new tapes would show something the NFL hadn't seen before and that Walsh had extra Info, it sure came down to a dud. Whay did it take so long for this whole process to take place and why was Walsh asking for protection? I'm betting he has a new off shore bank account


No doubt in my mind that financially Walsh doesn't need the golf gig anymore.  In my opinion, the NFL knew that there's a great mix of fans that are either sick of this whole story and consider it a non-issue and also a group that wants them to keep digging to punish the Pats harsher. In this case, the best course of action to appease the majority is to be able to claim they did more digging, found out nothing new and are now putting this entire incident behind them.  I think the reason it took so long was that they were figuring out how to organize this from every angle including whatever Walsh could possibly bring to the table (which was probably more compelling before his off shore bank account grew).



Duane Sampson -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/15/2008 7:36:47 AM)

Jay Fiedler: Dolphins Tried to Steal Patriots Signals
Wed May 14, 2008
 
The Palm Beach Post reports retired QB Jay Fiedler said the Dolphins tried to steal defensive signals when he played for them. “Everyone loves to get an advantage,” Fiedler said. “We were looking to steal their signals as well. There were times in games when we knew certain defensive calls from what we able to gather during the game or our scouts' eyesight.”



Duane Sampson -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/15/2008 7:42:51 AM)

Arlen Specter Calls for Independent Spygate Investigation
Wed May 14, 2008
 
The Boston Globe reports Pennsylvania Senator Arlen Specter called today for an independent investigation into the Patriots' illegal taping practices, citing what he called an obvious conflict between the interest of the NFL and the public interest. "After a lot of consideration it's my judgment that there ought to be an impartial investigation, an outside investigation, like the [steroids] investigation that baseball had with former [Maine] Senator George Mitchell," said Specter at a Capitol Hill news conference. Specter, who is the ranking Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, stopped short of saying the government would conduct an investigation if the NFL didn't do so, but didn't rule out Congressional hearings to look into the matter, if action wasn't taken. Specter met with former Patriots video assistant Matt Walsh for three hours yesterday in his Hart Senate Office Building office. He said that Walsh told him that a former offensive player for the Patriots told Walsh a few days before a Sept. 11, 2000 game against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers that the offensive player was called into a meeting with HC Bill Belichick, then OC Charlie Weis and Belichick confidant Ernie Adams. During the meeting it was explained to the player how the signal tapes would be used. According to Specter's recount of what Walsh detailed to him, the offensive player, who was on the sidelines for the game, would memorize the signals then watch for the Tampa Bay defensive calls during the game. He would then pass the call along to Weis, who would give instructions to the quarterback on the field. Specter's statement said that the offensive player told Walsh that it helped the Patriots anticipate 75 percent of the defensive plays being called.



Duane Sampson -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/17/2008 10:12:53 AM)

Belichick Speaks
Sat May 17, 2008

AP reports New England Patriots HC Bill Belichick lashed out at the team's former video assistant Friday, saying in a televised interview that Matt Walsh was a low-level staffer who was fired for "poor job performance" "There's not a lot of credibility," Belichick said in an interview broadcast on "CBS Evening News." "You know, he's tried to make it seem like we're buddies, and belong to the same book club and all. That's really a long, long stretch." Belichick acknowledged that he violated NFL rules prohibiting filming opponents signals but insisted there was no intent to hide what he was doing. "I made a mistake," he said in the interview. "I was wrong. I was wrong." That rationale has already been rejected by NFL commissioner Roger Goodell, who fined the coach $500,000 and docked the Patriots $250,000 and its first-round draft pick. "I didn't accept Bill Belichick's explanation for what happened," Goodell said Tuesday, "and I still don't to this day." In an interview with HBO for "Real Sports With Bryant Gumbel," Walsh dismissed Belichick's attempts to minimize the impact of the taping. Walsh told HBO he was coached on how to evade NFL rules, and that team officials instructed him on ways to avoid detection. "When I was doing it, I understood what we were doing to be wrong," Walsh said. "Coach Belichick's explanation for having misinterpreted the rules, to me, that really didn't sound like taking responsibility for what we had done, especially considering the great lengths that we had gone through to hide what we were doing." Belichick denied telling Walsh to hide what he was doing. "You look at the tape. You see him filming the game," the coach told CBS. "You tell me how discrete it is." Belichick has said he didn't even know Walsh, who was fired for poor performance and for making a tape recording of a meeting with player personnel director Scott Pioli. "For him to talk about game-planning and strategy and play-calling and how he advised coordinators, it's embarrassing; it's absurd," Belichick said. "He didn't have any knowledge of football. He was our third video assistant."



Duane Sampson -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/18/2008 10:13:39 AM)

    Some Senate Members Don't Believe Congress Should Get Involved with Spygate
    Sat May 17, 2008

    Washington Post's Mark Maske reports two Republican members of the Senate Judiciary Committee said yesterday they don't think Congress should get involved in the NFL's investigation of the videotaping scandal involving the New England Patriots. Sen. Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.) and Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) said in interviews they believe the NFL is capable of policing itself. That puts them in disagreement with Sen. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.), the ranking Republican member of the Judiciary Committee who this week called for the NFL to appoint an independent investigator and left open the possibility of pursuing Congressional action if the league fails to comply. "Number one, I have great respect for Senator Specter," Graham said in a telephone interview. "He is probably one of the most respected members of the body. But I respectfully disagree in terms of Congress getting involved. I don't see a need. I believe the NFL has the desire and capability to monitor its own business. It is in its best interests to do so, and there are far better matters for our time." Kyl also expressed respect for Specter but said in a separate telephone interview: "It doesn't seem to me that it's something the Congress should be involved in." NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell said after interviewing former Patriots video assistant Matt Walsh on Tuesday in New York that he did not plan to impose further penalties on the team. Goodell stopped just shy of declaring the case closed from the league's perspective, saying he would always look at any new information but saw nowhere else to turn at this point to find any. Specter was not satisfied. After having his own meeting with Walsh later Tuesday in Washington, Specter criticized the NFL's investigation during a Capitol Hill news conference Wednesday. He called the league's investigation incomplete and said Goodell and the NFL have a conflict of interest because uncovering further wrongdoing could erode fans' confidence in the sport. Specter said the league should hire an outside investigator as baseball did when it appointed former senator George Mitchell to write a report on steroid use. Specter also entered an 11-page written statement into the Congressional Record on Wednesday that said: "If the NFL does not initiate an inquiry like the investigation conducted by former Senator George Mitchell for baseball, it will be up to Congress to get the facts and take corrective action." Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.), a member of the committee, said in a written statement Thursday that Congress shouldn't get involved. Yesterday two members of Specter's party voiced those sentiments. Sen. Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.), the Judiciary Committee chairman, has not taken a formal position on whether to hold hearings, a spokesman for Leahy said, adding that Specter had not asked Leahy to hold hearings. Specter said during an appearance on Boston radio station WEEI yesterday that he wanted to give Goodell "every opportunity to have a thorough investigation" of the scandal. "My next step is to see what the public reaction is," Specter said during the interview, a recording of which was on the station's Web site. "I've been very careful not to call for Congressional hearings. We had Congressional hearings with the key Yankee player [Roger Clemens] and others, and I think they were not productive."



Lynn G. -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/18/2008 3:29:52 PM)

quote:

"You know, he's tried to make it seem like we're buddies, and belong to the same book club and all. That's really a long, long stretch."


This is so sophomoric and continued poor handling of things by Belichick.  Nothing in what I read of Walsh's statements indicated that he pretended to be best buddies with the coach.  He was doing a job as directed by Belichick, and now, with a mouth oozing full of sour grapes, Belichick is trying to act like he didn't even know the guy.

That's the kind of response you'd expect from a 9th grade girl who was just dissed by one of the popular crowd. 

"Oh her?  I don't even know who she is.  And I hate her hair."



djskillz -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/18/2008 11:20:03 PM)

I already respect Lindsey Graham as is, but this makes me respect him 10x more.  Bravo, sir:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3400913

I agree 100 percent with him on this.  This is getting ludicrous.  Congress has NO business whatsoever getting involved in this.



Tim Cady -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/19/2008 9:12:53 AM)

I love Dungy and I think think about the same as Lynn on Belichick's punkability, but Dungy should think about the glass house he lives in.
Jimmy Johnson quote:
That’s what I’m saying. I was saying one of Marty Schottenheimer’s scouts, Mark Hatley, who has passed away now, Mark told me that’s how they did it, and Howard Mudd their offensive line coach with Kansas City, who now coaches for Tony Dungy, he was the best in the entire league at stealing signals.

Now this: From his Tampa High School tour:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/colts/home.htm

Tony Dungy recently spoke at a Tampa, Fla., high school where he was asked when he would be returning to the city for good.
"I'm looking forward to try and win one more Super Bowl before I do that," Dungy said.
He was also asked if anything had happened since he wrote his best-selling book that he would like to include now.
"We talk about how important it is to do things the right way and have integrity so that when you do win, people can never ask that question," he said. "That's the great thing that I'm happy about with our team.
"Yes, we won (Super Bowl XLI). But no one is really going to ask, 'Did they cheat? Did they do things the right way?' I think our record speaks for itself and if you're a true champion, that's the way you'd like it to be."
 
 
Define Cheat, that is the question. Did Howard Mudd on your staff steal signals? Do we really want to open this box?



Lynn G. -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/19/2008 9:25:37 AM)

The difference is - did Mudd steal signals by observing during game time?  That's legal and frequently done.

Or did he secretly tape another team while disabling the red light on the camera to make it look like the camera wasn't on, and hide from security people because he knew that what he was doing was illegal?

HUGE difference in my mind.  Apples and oranges, and from what I've read, Dungy has nothing to apologize for.  Belichick does.



Tim Cady -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/19/2008 9:32:56 PM)

Splitting hairs, same as the ticket scalping. Can you prove they didn't film signals? Jimmy Johnson seems to think everyone filmed signals.



Lynn G. -> RE: RE:Those Lying Cheating Pats (5/20/2008 7:43:09 AM)

I can't prove it, but from everything I've heard, it sounds like Belichick was doing much more than the other guys.  And the big kicker is that he continued to do it even after the league gave him an easy out by distributing the league wide memo to stop.  His arrogance is what got ultimately got him into trouble.



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