RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (Full Version)

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djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 3:57:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

And I appreciate the support man. You, Ed and I are the hold outs against rampant homerism.

[&:]
Or, reality. [&:]


[&:][&:]

Exactly. I see it more as the holdouts FOR homerism. Thinking it's a way more attractive job than it actually is.



SoMnFan -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 3:57:48 PM)

Flips not a bad coach, maybe?



TJSweens -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 3:59:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete M.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

And I appreciate the support man. You, Ed and I are the hold outs against rampant homerism.

[sm=Homer.gif] Not that Homer.


So Tim, lay out the order in which you'd offer the job and who you think would be likely to accept.


Why do I need to do that? Isn't that why Teague and Ellis set up this whole Villa 7 thing? Let them go through their connections and find a good coach. Don't let the boosters pick the coach. A good coach, running a good program will make the boosters happy.



Pete M. -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 4:01:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete M.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

And I appreciate the support man. You, Ed and I are the hold outs against rampant homerism.

[sm=Homer.gif] Not that Homer.


So Tim, lay out the order in which you'd offer the job and who you think would be likely to accept.


Why do I need to do that? Isn't that why Teague and Ellis set up this whole Villa 7 thing? Let them go through their connections and find a good coach. Don't let the boosters pick the coach. A good coach, running a good program will make the boosters happy.


Just curious who -- if Flip is a "terrible coach" -- you think a good (realistic) option is. I'd like to see their sterling track record of success.



TJSweens -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 4:02:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

And I appreciate the support man. You, Ed and I are the hold outs against rampant homerism.

[&:]
Or, reality. [&:]


[&:][&:]

Exactly. I see it more as the holdouts FOR homerism. Thinking it's a way more attractive job than it actually is.


Unlike the holdouts who delude themselves into thinking Flip is a great coach and that the only way to get another coach here is to drug them and kidnap them.
The job may not be as attractive as I want to believe Dustin, but it's a hell of a lot more attractive than you make it out to be.



Dave E -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 4:02:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete M.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

And I appreciate the support man. You, Ed and I are the hold outs against rampant homerism.

[sm=Homer.gif] Not that Homer.


So Tim, lay out the order in which you'd offer the job and who you think would be likely to accept.


Why do I need to do that? Isn't that why Teague and Ellis set up this whole Villa 7 thing? Let them go through their connections and find a good coach. Don't let the boosters pick the coach. A good coach, running a good program will make the boosters happy.


Agreed. You hired Teague for a reason. Let him do his job.

Could he be a total failure? Yes, it's possible. But I don't see the reason for running down Teague's credentials before he's even made his first coaching hire at the U (and he did pretty well in the past at VCU) -- he is well respected among numerous young coaches by all reports, and has informerly advise many schools on coaching hires.

If you want an AD who is the Joel Maturi type, why hire Teague and then cut his nuts off? Doesn't make sense to me. If he sucks, he sucks, but at least give the man a chance to do his job.



Dave E -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 4:04:10 PM)

I don't get the logic that Flip Saunders is the only step up from Tubby Smith who would consider coming to Minnesota.



Pete M. -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 4:04:17 PM)

And if Teague thinks -- of the candidates who haven't yet turned him down -- Flip is the best option, then what?

Face it, any remaining candidate for this job has a huge risk-factor -- in my mind, a lot bigger risk than Flip. I think this would be a solid and extremely defensible hire.



djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 4:05:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

And I appreciate the support man. You, Ed and I are the hold outs against rampant homerism.

[&:]
Or, reality. [&:]


[&:][&:]

Exactly. I see it more as the holdouts FOR homerism. Thinking it's a way more attractive job than it actually is.


Unlike the holdouts who delude themselves into thinking Flip is a great coach and that the only way to get another coach here is to drug them and kidnap them.
The job may not be as attractive as I want to believe Dustin, but it's a hell of a lot more attractive than you make it out to be.


How so? Make the counter case. And be objective. 7th to 8th most attractive program currently in the Big10...and?

Also pretty sure no one on here has called Flip a "great" coach. He's just one of the best options the Gophers realistically have.



Pete M. -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 4:10:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

I don't get the logic that Flip Saunders is the only step up from Tubby Smith who would consider coming to Minnesota.


I don't believe that logic for a second. But look at Illinois -- it's undoubtedly a better job than Minnesota's. Undoubtedly. And they hired something named John Groce from Ohio. That's the level we're looking at. And I'm not so convinced that Flip's a demonstrably worse option than that level. I guess we'll just disagree.



twinsfan -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 4:13:20 PM)

Why didn't the Big 10 get Marquette instead of freakin' Rutgers? Oh yeah....we want to get the East coast market. Are there actually enough Rutgers fans to make a difference? Marquette would have been much better.



Pete M. -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 4:14:21 PM)

Obviously superior jobs: Michigan State, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio State.

Superior jobs: Purdue, Wisconsin, Illinois.

Roughly on-par: Iowa, maybe Northwestern.

Inferior jobs: Penn State, Nebraska (but with way better facilities).



TJSweens -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 4:15:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete M.

Just curious who -- if Flip is a "terrible coach" -- you think a good (realistic) option is. I'd like to see their sterling track record of success.


You're kidding, right? The who's who of the candidates that have been thrown out there are all Villa 7 products. The ones who worked directly for Teague (Smart and Grant), the others who came out of Villa 7 and got head coaching jobs elsewhere (Stevens, Enfield, Buzz, Mack). Rayno, interviewed Greg Burton of ESPN Richmond. He said Teague and Ellis are a search committee by themselves. He along with couple of head coaches siad that universities all over the country call Teague and Ellis for recommendations on coaching candidates.



TJSweens -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 4:17:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

And I appreciate the support man. You, Ed and I are the hold outs against rampant homerism.

[&:]
Or, reality. [&:]


[&:][&:]

Exactly. I see it more as the holdouts FOR homerism. Thinking it's a way more attractive job than it actually is.


Unlike the holdouts who delude themselves into thinking Flip is a great coach and that the only way to get another coach here is to drug them and kidnap them.
The job may not be as attractive as I want to believe Dustin, but it's a hell of a lot more attractive than you make it out to be.


How so? Make the counter case. And be objective. 7th to 8th most attractive program currently in the Big10...and?



I've already made the case several times, quoting a Big Ten coach with no connection to Minnesota. All you have provide is "Dustin says it isn't."



Pete M. -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 4:18:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete M.

Just curious who -- if Flip is a "terrible coach" -- you think a good (realistic) option is. I'd like to see their sterling track record of success.


You're kidding, right? The who's who of the candidates that have been thrown out there are all Villa 7 products. The ones who worked directly for Teague (Smart and Grant), the others who came out of Villa 7 and got head coaching jobs elsewhere (Stevens, Enfield, Buzz, Mack). Rayno, interviewed Greg Burton of ESPN Richmond. He said Teague and Ellis are a search committee by themselves. He along with couple of head coaches siad that universities all over the country call Teague and Ellis for recommendations on coaching candidates.


So you think Anthony Grant would be a good hire? Andy Enfield? Chris Mack?



TJSweens -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 4:31:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete M.

Face it, any remaining candidate for this job has a huge risk-factor -- in my mind, a lot bigger risk than Flip. I think this would be a solid and extremely defensible hire.


And this is the crux of our disagreement. One that isn't going to be resolved. Flip is a bad coach. Flip has always had horrible defensive teams. Flip's teams have always underachieved. Multiple first round sweeps. Taking over over an NBA champion and running them decline steadily in his tenure until they imploded. Flip also can't control a locker room. I have had that one confirmed by a very close friend of Sam Mitchell, who told him how Flip tried controlling things by sucking up to KG in hopes that he would keep everyone line. When that would backfire, he would run to McHale including one time that had Garnett shouting after him "that's right, run to your mom like you always do you little bitch". He even turned to Randy Wittman to be his enforcer at one point. The inmates ran the asylum under Flip. Teenagers aren't going to be any more respectful to him.

The absolute best I would hope for is another 3 tournament appearance in 6 year run like Tubby. Tout him all you want. I think a weak coach who will just perpetuate the stagnation we have experienced.

We don't agree on this and we never will. I'm moving on.



Pete M. -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 4:37:27 PM)

Yep, we'll agree to disagree. I hope whoever Teague hires succeeds.



twinsfan -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 6:38:55 PM)

If nobody hears a tree fall in the woods, does it actually make a noise?

If a serious question is not acknowledged and just skipped over by everybody, was the question actually posted?



Dave E -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 6:44:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Why didn't the Big 10 get Marquette instead of freakin' Rutgers? Oh yeah....we want to get the East coast market. Are there actually enough Rutgers fans to make a difference? Marquette would have been much better.


Yes. Big 10 network is on in Milwaukee already. Now they'll be on Cablevision. That's all that matters.



ruffenach -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 8:39:11 PM)

Hiring Flip is a lot like kissing your sister. Doesn't feel real good but sometimes you have to do it. While Flip isn't the greatest x's and o's man, he is good enough for the job. Flip's positives is his long NBA coaching history and that has real credibility with the young men considering the U of M. Most guys are looking to play in the NBA and a good selling point is I coached KG, CB and a ton of top level players. That will be a big consideration with potential recruits. He has real credibility with the boosters and money counts. You can't run a first rate program without it. He is not a big disciplinarian and most recruits don't want this. The discipline problems with the Wolves were on KG. He ran the team and it was KG's way or the high way. If you don't believe this ask Clem. I would rather take a chance on Flip then on a guy like Hoiberg. That's just me.



djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 9:42:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete M.

Obviously superior jobs: Michigan State, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio State.

Superior jobs: Purdue, Wisconsin, Illinois.

Roughly on-par: Iowa, maybe Northwestern.

Inferior jobs: Penn State, Nebraska (but with way better facilities).


Spot on. It's really a fairly terrible job right now, despite what some random ex-Big 10 coach/homer says.



TJSweens -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 9:47:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete M.

Obviously superior jobs: Michigan State, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio State.

Superior jobs: Purdue, Wisconsin, Illinois.

Roughly on-par: Iowa, maybe Northwestern.

Inferior jobs: Penn State, Nebraska (but with way better facilities).


Spot on. It's really a fairly terrible job right now, despite what some random ex-Big 10 coach/homer says.


Yes, you know far more about it than somebody who actually has coached college basketball. Dustin says so. [&o]



djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 10:06:08 PM)

No, I'm saying 1 random big10 coach touting a big10 job isn't much of an endorsement for evidence.

Look at the objective facts about the MN coaching job vs. others in the conference and other major programs in the country. That's all I'm saying.

It's not a very attractive job if you look at it objectively.



TJSweens -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 10:24:04 PM)

No, it's not an attractive job if you look at it from your opinion. I have seen nothing in what you write that is any more objective than what anyone else says other than you saying that you're being more objective.

A former Big Ten coach, who has no ties to Minnesota, saying that it actually is an attractive job and presenting a list or reasons is far more objective than anything you have put forth. You have always been a hard core Duke / ACC guy, so frankly you are not exactly the poster child for objectivity on coaching jobs.



djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (3/29/2013 10:28:04 PM)

Yes, I'm a huge Duke fan, but I love the Gophers still and want them to do well. But what I offered were objective FACTS on what MN's history has been as a basketball program, their facilities, their place in the Big10, etc. I'm no different than Pete really in this.

You offered an opinion of one former Big10 coach basically saying: It's a Big10 job, it's great.

What is "good" about the U job right now for a coach other than it being in the Big10? I have yet to hear that from you, at all. That's all I'm asking.

NC State (which has had far more success than MN over time) isn't a "great" job just because "it's in the ACC".



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