RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens)

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twinsfan -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/19/2011 7:20:14 AM)
The Gophers weren't that good with Nolen, and they are just a touch worse without him. I do retract my statement that we are better without Nolen. You hit the nail on the head. We are a little worse.

TJSweens -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/19/2011 8:51:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JT2 The Gophers weren't that good with Nolen, and they are just a touch worse without him. That just isn't true at all. The Gophers were a top 20 program with major wins over other top 20 programs before Nolen went down. They are now a team that loses to Northwestern.

panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/19/2011 9:10:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: JT2 The Gophers weren't that good with Nolen, and they are just a touch worse without him. That just isn't true at all. The Gophers were a top 20 program with major wins over other top 20 programs before Nolen went down. They are now a team that loses to Northwestern. These are difficult concepts for some people to grasp. Top 15 program (and rising) is more accurate, though.

twinsfan -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/19/2011 7:35:49 PM)
hi drew

JT2 -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/19/2011 10:45:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: panndder Nolen is the magic bullet for this squad. We need ball-handling and outside defense and he is quite good at both. There's a reason we almost won at Wisconsin and Michigan St. (pre-implosion) with him. Really, Nolen is the reason we almost won those two games? Was it his combined 1-10 shooting? Was it his 4 combined points? His 5 assists and 5 turnovers? Maybe it was his lock down defense. Did he lock down Taylor and Lucas? Go ahead and tell me what the reason was.

JT2 -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 1:28:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: JT2 The Gophers weren't that good with Nolen, and they are just a touch worse without him. That just isn't true at all. The Gophers were a top 20 program with major wins over other top 20 programs before Nolen went down. They are now a team that loses to Northwestern. You do realize that we beat Northwestern WITHOUT Nolen, right? A top 20 program, based on the same meaningless, highly subjective "rankings" that had Michigan State as a TOP 3 program? We beat a highly overrated (at the time) Carolina team, two weeks in. And we beat a good Purdue team, and I will admit Nolen was impressive in that one, best game of his career. Where was/is that guy? Was Tubby handcuffing him? Why hasn't he improved as a player over the course of four years? Is he that good defensively that it makes up for his complete lack of ability to put the ball in the hole? The experts over hyped the conference early. Fact is, the big ten really kind of sucks this year. There are several freshman PG's in conference that are better than our magic bullet senior hero. He really did get better in the eyes of many, post-injury.

JT2 -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 1:49:13 AM)
I'm really having trouble letting this one go. We "almost won" these two games, even though we LOST by a combined 17 points. We almost won these two games because of stellar play from our PG? Even though this PG shot 10% from the floor, tallied a grand total of four points in 50+ minutes, and turned it over as many times as he assisted. Difficult concept to grasp indeed.

SoMnFan -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 2:02:52 AM)
http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/116091704.html Yeouuuuuuch. Souhan railing on Tubby. Deserved?

JT2 -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 2:13:38 AM)
Who gets the blame for the games we almost lost?

panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 10:19:08 AM)
The MSU and WI games we might have lost by 17 points, but we were within a possession with less than a minute to go in both and started fouling. That's how a close game can be lost by 10. If you want to blame Nolen for this basic coaching strategy, so be it. Furthermore I've never argued that Nolen is anything approaching a scoring juggernaut (although he shoots the 3 at a clip over 30% which isn't horrid for a PG, so I'd almost call him underrated based upon what I'm hearing here) but he does make our offense click. He's also the guy who prevents the oher team's best guard from totally lighting us up (see: Battle, Talor). As for freshmen PG in the league, there are none I'd rather have this year over a healthy Nolen. Craft is starting to figure it out and could very well be a star, but he still makes a lot of freshman mistakes. Nolen DID play very well against Purdue, but that was hardly a career game. He has a lot of career games where he puts the team on his back. See: Louisville, Butler, North Carolina, West Virginia (off the top of my head). If Nolen's not the style of point guard you like to watch that is fine, but I knew (and a cursory viewing of a few games has proven) that this season's success post-Joseph relied on Nolen.

panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 10:19:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JT2 Who gets the blame for the games we almost lost? I thought Nolen was your go-to whipping boy...?

twinsfan -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 10:30:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: panndder quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: JT2 The Gophers weren't that good with Nolen, and they are just a touch worse without him. That just isn't true at all. The Gophers were a top 20 program with major wins over other top 20 programs before Nolen went down. They are now a team that loses to Northwestern. These are difficult concepts for some people to grasp. Top 15 program (and rising) is more accurate, though. So when Nolen returns, we should roll to the NIT title, right? I mean, there won't be another team in the Top 40 in the NIT. And we'll be Top 15. Are you ready to make that call?

panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 11:24:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: twinsfan quote: ORIGINAL: panndder quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: JT2 The Gophers weren't that good with Nolen, and they are just a touch worse without him. That just isn't true at all. The Gophers were a top 20 program with major wins over other top 20 programs before Nolen went down. They are now a team that loses to Northwestern. These are difficult concepts for some people to grasp. Top 15 program (and rising) is more accurate, though. So when Nolen returns, we should roll to the NIT title, right? I mean, there won't be another team in the Top 40 in the NIT. And we'll be Top 15. Are you ready to make that call? If we fail to reach the NCAA tournament (at this point we're still in) and we have a healthy Nolen back I'd expect that we're the favorites to win, yes.

djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 2:38:44 PM)
You very much overrate Al Nolen, panndder. He's just not very good, at all. The Gophers can and should do better for a PG.

panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 2:57:39 PM)
He's not very good but he is good and we desperately need even an okay PG to make all the difference. If we had everyone he'd be our least talented starter, yet without Joseph he's easily the most important.

djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 3:33:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: panndder He's not very good but he is good and we desperately need even an okay PG to make all the difference. If we had everyone he'd be our least talented starter, yet without Joseph he's easily the most important. Sure. But that isn't the argument; again, the fact that his loss hurts is more of a reflection on just how poor the Gophers' PG situation is. It's bad.

panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 3:37:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz quote: ORIGINAL: panndder He's not very good but he is good and we desperately need even an okay PG to make all the difference. If we had everyone he'd be our least talented starter, yet without Joseph he's easily the most important. Sure. But that isn't the argument; again, the fact that his loss hurts is more of a reflection on just how poor the Gophers' PG situation is. It's bad. That's been my argument. I don't think he's some super great player, but I think he's a very solid PG option at the college level. Furthermore, he's critically important for this team's success.

djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 3:40:06 PM)
I don't think he's a "very solid PG" for a top 25 team. That's been my point all along. Brad Tinsley is the same way at Vanderbilt, for instance. Both programs can and should be better at the very critical PG position.

panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 4:23:27 PM)
No, you're thinking of a top 5 (or better) team. Top 25 teams have a bunch of role players and a stud or else a great front line and solid guards (us at the beginning of the season) or vice versa. It's pretty clear that your expectations are not in line with reality. If Nolen was a super stud (and healthy) this would not be a top 25 team but a top 5 team.

djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 4:33:09 PM)
No, I'm not. I watch a LOT of college ball, all levels and teams. It's pretty much tied with baseball for my favorite sport. I'm not unrealistic at all. Nolen is one of the very worst PG's among the top 25 teams in the country.

panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 4:47:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz No, I'm not. I watch a LOT of college ball, all levels and teams. It's pretty much tied with baseball for my favorite sport. I'm not unrealistic at all. Nolen is one of the very worst PG's among the top 25 teams in the country. That might be true, but it's not unreasonable for someone of his skill to get major playing time on a Top 25 team and he's vitally important to the success of this season. I keep getting the feeling that we don't really disagree, but that we're just beating around the bush in a different manner.

TJSweens -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 8:49:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz I don't think he's a "very solid PG" for a top 25 team. That's been my point all along. He was a solid PG on a top 25 team before he got injured.

TJSweens -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/20/2011 8:53:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoMnFan http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/116091704.html Yeouuuuuuch. Souhan railing on Tubby. Deserved? No. That article is several days old now. Tubby is not without blame, but Souhan blamed things on Tubby that were not Tubby's fault.

djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/21/2011 9:38:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TJSweens quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz I don't think he's a "very solid PG" for a top 25 team. That's been my point all along. He was a solid PG on a top 25 team before he got injured. Not really. Solid "for the Gophers". But again, that's my point. To be a "really good" team they can and should do better at the PG position than a guy like Nolen that would be a backup PG on just about any other top 25 team.

Mr. Ed -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/21/2011 11:08:40 AM)
He is better than anything they have right now. I would hope we can all agree on that. And that, yes, it's a spot they Gophs CAN improve on. I would take Nolan on the team right now and go forward, rather than not.

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