RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (Full Version)

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panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/17/2011 10:16:58 PM)

We have four more wins is Nolen is healthy all season. Virginia + IU, Ill, and PSU. I have absolutely NO doubt in my mind.



djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/17/2011 10:55:23 PM)

Maybe so. You won't get an argument from me that the Gophers are a better team with Nolen than without him.

But that still doesn't mean he's all that good. That just points to how ridiculously bad the Gophers' PG situation is right now.

That's kind of the point.

It's like them and the Wolves are having a contest to see which team can field a worse roster of PG's.



Mr. Ed -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 8:26:04 AM)

Their path to those additional victories contains challenges against more crafty point guards: Michigan State's Kalin Lucas on Tuesday, Michigan's Darius Morris on Saturday, Northwestern's Michael Thompson on March 2 and Battle again March 6.
Without Al Nolen, they might encounter the same problems they had Thursday against Battle.
"It's just a totally different team now," Battle said. "They play a 2-3 zone. I've never seen that in four years playing against these guys. When Al was out there, he could pretty much guard anybody's best perimeter player."



panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 9:19:57 AM)

I noticed that quote as well. Tubby was lucky to have Nolen and Johnson for a few years.



Pete M. -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 9:23:57 AM)

Yeah, that's the problem -- having to go zone. I still wouldve liked to see Tubby go to man earlier. The deflating thing about this team is their mind-boggling ability to give up absolutely critical open threes after they've just taken momentum. After a big Gophers run, you can set your watch to a defensive breakdown and a wide open three. Frustrating, in the extreme.

And I agree with pannder -- at least three, and probably four more wins with Nolen. On the other hand, injuries happen, and the added experience for Hollins and Armelin have been a bonus. I LOVE Hollins as a player. He's going to be a rock solid starter for the next three years.



twinsfan -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 9:33:02 AM)

This is a Gophers team that has shown no ability to win Big 10 games on the road over the years. Nolen was the PG on those teams. You're giving him way too much credit by saying we'd win at Indiana, at Penn State, etc., if we had Nolen. We've lost plenty of those types of games this season and last and last and last with Nolen. He's not a magic bullet.



djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 9:51:34 AM)

I like Hollins a lot too, Pete.



Jim Frenette -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 10:08:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete M.

Yeah, that's the problem -- having to go zone. I still wouldve liked to see Tubby go to man earlier. The deflating thing about this team is their mind-boggling ability to give up absolutely critical open threes after they've just taken momentum. After a big Gophers run, you can set your watch to a defensive breakdown and a wide open three. Frustrating, in the extreme.

And I agree with pannder -- at least three, and probably four more wins with Nolen. On the other hand, injuries happen, and the added experience for Hollins and Armelin have been a bonus. I LOVE Hollins as a player. He's going to be a rock solid starter for the next three years.


Pete would it work to have a zone and 1 guy play man up on Battle?



Mr. Ed -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 10:23:23 AM)

Jim, I'll take a shot at your ?

Depends on who you have chase Battle. It would have had to have been Hollins, maybe Armelin all game.

I don't see Mav as a very good defender yet, and would have been picked off too easily. Same for Hoffarber.



Pete M. -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 10:34:10 AM)

Jim, the box and 1 is possible, but it's more of a junk defense that might work in short spurts. Penn St. has too many other offensive weapons, especially shooters, for it to have any lasting success.



Jim Frenette -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 10:44:43 AM)

Thanks guys. The reason I asked was Battle was shooting from 6-7 ft beyond the arc and it's hard to extend the zone out that far and be successful



panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 11:06:25 AM)

Nolen is the magic bullet for this squad. We need ball-handling and outside defense and he is quite good at both. There's a reason we almost won at Wisconsin and Michigan St. (pre-implosion) with him.



djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 11:27:16 AM)

Almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

Nolen's decent, nothing special, and not a good starting PG for a top 25 team.



David Levine -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 11:28:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: panndder

I noticed that quote as well. Tubby was lucky to have Nolen and Johnson for a few years.


I think Johnson is the guy we really miss. He was so long and quick that he could help out on the post and still get back and cover the 3pt line. Would have loved to see him play next to Trevor.



panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 11:44:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

Nolen's decent, nothing special, and not a good starting PG for a top 25 team.


Riiiiiight. No meaningful analysis can be had unless they win.



twinsfan -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 12:36:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

Nolen's decent, nothing special, and not a good starting PG for a top 25 team.

Exactly. Lots of "almost wins" on the road, with or without Nolen. They play these games tight to the end, for the most part, and leave it up to a coin flip at the end. We just usually end up on the wrong side of the coin, Nolen or no Nolen. No difference really.



TJSweens -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 12:57:20 PM)

Why do I have this dread feeling Tubby will leave after this season and be replaced by a newly fired Flip Saunders?



panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 1:24:23 PM)

Almost winning at Wisconsin or Michigan State (with Lucious/swagger) is on par with almost winning at Penn State or Indiana or being out of the game at home against Virginia or Illinois?


[image]http://captionsearch.com/pix/t1gb4klq3.jpg[/image]



djskillz -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 1:26:07 PM)

Again, "almost" doesn't count. I could care less if a player helps a team to "almost" win. That doesn't mean anything.



panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 1:55:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Again, "almost" doesn't count. I could care less if a player helps a team to "almost" win. That doesn't mean anything.


So if the Twins lose to another major league team by one run they've not proven they're any better than your local 5th grade B team because they didn't actually pull off the victory? Got it.



Karl Juhnke -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 7:11:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: panndder

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Again, "almost" doesn't count. I could care less if a player helps a team to "almost" win. That doesn't mean anything.


So if the Twins lose to another major league team by one run they've not proven they're any better than your local 5th grade B team because they didn't actually pull off the victory? Got it.


For the sake of getting a favorable NCAA seed, yes that is actually correct.



Karl Juhnke -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 7:13:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

Nolen's decent, nothing special, and not a good starting PG for a top 25 team.

Exactly. Lots of "almost wins" on the road, with or without Nolen. They play these games tight to the end, for the most part, and leave it up to a coin flip at the end. We just usually end up on the wrong side of the coin, Nolen or no Nolen. No difference really.


The point is not Nolen's skill.  He is a serviceable pg.  But the main advantage is it gets Blake out of that spot and back where he belongs - catching and shooting.  He is a complete waste at pg.



Jeff Jesser -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 7:44:22 PM)

Exactly.

I'm no BB expert but the way I see it.  Losing Nolan depleted this team 2 positions.  SG and PG. 



panndder -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/18/2011 8:31:14 PM)

Trust me, I know that close doesn't prove anything come Selection Sunday. The issue at hand was whether those close losses on the road to good teams when compared against close losses (and not so close losses) to mediocre teams on the road and at home could be construed as a sign of Nolen's importance.



JT2 -> RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) (2/19/2011 3:24:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

Nolen's decent, nothing special, and not a good starting PG for a top 25 team.

Exactly. Lots of "almost wins" on the road, with or without Nolen. They play these games tight to the end, for the most part, and leave it up to a coin flip at the end. We just usually end up on the wrong side of the coin, Nolen or no Nolen. No difference really.


The point is not Nolen's skill.  He is a serviceable pg.  But the main advantage is it gets Blake out of that spot and back where he belongs - catching and shooting.  He is a complete waste at pg.



I don't at all agree that Nolen is a serviceable PG. He has actually gotten worse as a basketball player over the last four years. And I dare anybody to find a worse shooting starting PG in recent Big Ten history. Seriously. His perimeter defense is missed, but his one and a half FG's per game is/was the problem.

I do agree that putting Hoffarber in that spot wasn't good for him or the team. But, lets not get too carried away about Hoffarber either. It's hard not to like him because he absolutely gets the most out of what he has, but a Nolen and Hoffarber backcourt is not putting fear into any defenders. Nolen can't shoot and Hoffarber can't put the ball on the floor. Bad combination. Defensively, what Nolen gives you, Hoffarber takes away. Hoffarber makes Steve Alford look quick-footed.

The Gophers weren't that good with Nolen, and they are just a touch worse without him.

Tubby maybe takes Hewitt's job. Then what?



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