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Guest -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/6/2008 11:06:05 PM)

-2 for Ed.




Duane Sampson -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/7/2008 6:40:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ed_Marotske

I will always contend that if Brett Favre played in Purple people in Minnesota and Green bay would view him completely different!



That's true of every player. Except McMahon. [&:] Gawd that was tough watching him in my colors.......




Easy E -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/7/2008 11:06:13 AM)

So Ed, I take it you think Favre is a top 5 QB?

Here's Favre's accomplishments - 1 Super Bowl win, 1 Super Bowl loss.

Stats supporting a top 5 QB
1 - passing attempts 
1 - passing completions
1 - passing touchdowns

Stats supporting a not top 5 QB
1 - interceptions
1 - sacks
3 - fumbles
15 - completion %
19 - passer rating
42 - yards per attempt
51 - % TD
180 - yards per completion

Just for comparison, here's Emmitt Smith - 3 Super Bowl wins

1 - rushing attempts
1 - rushing yards
1 - rushing TDs

I'm not going to go through his "bad" stats, because we all probably agree on them. Basically, I don't really see how someone who feels Brett Favre is a top 5 QB in all of history... doesn't also feel that Emmitt Smith is a top 5 back. Position aside, they are the same player.






Zoilo -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/7/2008 6:29:15 PM)

Favre - interception king

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKikPebj0sE




djskillz -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/7/2008 9:08:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

So Ed, I take it you think Favre is a top 5 QB?

Here's Favre's accomplishments - 1 Super Bowl win, 1 Super Bowl loss.

Stats supporting a top 5 QB
1 - passing attempts 
1 - passing completions
1 - passing touchdowns

Stats supporting a not top 5 QB
1 - interceptions
1 - sacks
3 - fumbles
15 - completion %
19 - passer rating
42 - yards per attempt
51 - % TD
180 - yards per completion

Just for comparison, here's Emmitt Smith - 3 Super Bowl wins

1 - rushing attempts
1 - rushing yards
1 - rushing TDs

I'm not going to go through his "bad" stats, because we all probably agree on them. Basically, I don't really see how someone who feels Brett Favre is a top 5 QB in all of history... doesn't also feel that Emmitt Smith is a top 5 back. Position aside, they are the same player.





YEP!

Not only the "stats", but also, I say again:

In a BIG game, there aren't 10 QB's you'd rather have than Favre?

I think I could name 20 probably, maybe more.




Trekgeekscott -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/7/2008 9:16:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz





Not only the "stats", but also, I say again:

In a BIG game, there aren't 10 QB's you'd rather have than Favre?


Let's see, Montana, Manning, Brady, Young ...um... Bradshaw.... um...  um... um....  NOPE.

quote:

I think I could name 20 probably, maybe more.


And you would be full of crap if you did. 




Guest -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/7/2008 11:38:00 PM)

Manning, Brady, Montanna,  Bradshaw, Elway, Starr, Unitas, Staubach, Aikmen, Namath, Jergenson, Griese, Young.....

And I would take Fran The Man way, way before Brett despite Tark's Superbowl shortcommings.

I you throw out superbowl "stats", I'd add  Marino, Fouts, Moon and Simms, Jim Kelly and as a throwback guy, Sammy Baugh.

yea 20 is tough, but 10 is easy....

13 QB's I would take before Farve, Plus Sir Francis makes 14




djskillz -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/8/2008 12:14:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Danimal

Manning, Brady, Montanna,  Bradshaw, Elway, Starr, Unitas, Staubach, Aikmen, Namath, Jergenson, Griese, Young.....

And I would take Fran The Man way, way before Brett despite Tark's Superbowl shortcommings.

I you throw out superbowl "stats", I'd add  Marino, Fouts, Moon and Simms, Jim Kelly and as a throwback guy, Sammy Baugh.

yea 20 is tough, but 10 is easy....

13 QB's I would take before Farve, Plus Sir Francis makes 14


Yep.




Easy E -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/8/2008 12:31:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz





Not only the "stats", but also, I say again:

In a BIG game, there aren't 10 QB's you'd rather have than Favre?


Let's see, Montana, Manning, Brady, Young ...um... Bradshaw.... um...  um... um....  NOPE.

quote:

I think I could name 20 probably, maybe more.


And you would be full of crap if you did. 


Favre is as likely to lose a big game as he is to win it. Despite being in Green Bay, and despite having man love from every announcer, even those people recognize it. He is just as likely to throw a game away with a stupid, unessesary throw, as he is to win one. Remember, he's the guy who could never, ever beat the Cowboys, he choked in every game against them. He basically just outlasted them, waited for them to fall apart and lose to someone else. He literally had no shot against them. I would hazzard a guess that Favre's record in the playoffs, where Reggie White (Green Bay's real MVP) wasn't on his team, is really, really poor.  

There are many more QBs I'd rather have in a "big" game, than I think are better than him overall. You have to give the guy some credit for putting in the time. Just like Emmitt Smith... but in a game you need to win? Favre? What?... . Johnny Unitas, Steve Young, Phil Simms, John Elway, Kenny Stabler, heck even Bart Starr...

I get the feeling you don't think much of players before the 90's?




David Levine -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/8/2008 11:11:45 AM)

Agree with Eric.

As good as Favre was, and as many regular season come-backs as he had, he had a tendency to melt down in playoff games.




Lynn G. -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/8/2008 11:13:01 AM)

You mean like six interceptions against the Rams?   [:D]




Toby Stumbo -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/8/2008 3:10:12 PM)

Overhyped: Favre didn't deliver in second half of career



By Sal Paolantonio
ESPN.com

We interrupt the continued deification of Brett Favre -- a first-ballot Hall of Famer and the most durable player in NFL history -- with the following reality check. Yes, Favre played long enough to throw the most touchdown passes and collect the most wins by an NFL quarterback. But let's examine the second half of No. 4's career. The truth is, Favre did little over the past decade to earn the gushing praise heaped upon him by our fawning brethren in the media.


Best-Ever Debate[image]http://assets.espn.go.com/i/nfl/profiles/players/mugs/65x90/112.jpg[/image] In his 17 seasons, Brett Favre set numerous NFL records, including most yards passing (61,655) and most touchdowns (442). But do those numbers, combined with Favre's three MVP awards and one Super Bowl victory, put him among the top 10 quarterbacks of all time? Recently, ESPN.com's Mike Sando and Football Outsiders' Aaron Schatz examined the best-ever debate.
After beating the San Francisco 49ers in the 1997 NFC Championship Game, Favre won just three of his last 10 playoff games. Eli Manning had more postseason wins in a 29-day span this past season than Favre had in his last decade with the Green Bay Packers. (ouch [image]http://media.scout.com/media/forums/emoticons/63/lol3.gif[/image])

Yes, Favre won a Super Bowl -- 11 years ago! But as his career arc spiraled downward, the blind adulation only got worse. Favre's passer rating in his last 12 postseason games was a pedestrian 77.8. In his last five wild-card games, he went 2-3 with more interceptions (nine) than touchdown passes (seven). In his last three divisional playoff games, he went 1-2 with seven TDs and seven interceptions.

That's a 3-5 record with 14 touchdown passes and 16 picks. In two of his last four postseason appearances, Favre threw two of the most unthinkable playoff interceptions in NFL history, both in overtime -- to Brian Dawkins of the Philadelphia Eagles in 2003 and to Corey Webster of the New York Giants in January.

In fact, Favre is the only quarterback in NFL history to throw overtime interceptions in two playoff games. In his last nine playoff games, Favre threw 18 interceptions. In the first 81 years of the Green Bay franchise, the most hallowed in all of pro football, the Packers were 13-0 at home in the postseason.

But since 2002, the Packers have gone 2-3 in playoff games at Lambeau Field, with Favre losing to three not-quite Hall of Fame quarterbacks: Michael Vick , Daunte Culpepper and Manning. If Manning had a decade like that, he'd be run out of New York. If Philip Rivers kept chucking ridiculous overtime interceptions in the postseason, he would be branded a first-round bust. If Drew Brees came up short in three out of five home playoff games, he'd be mocked.

But no matter how many dumb passes he threw and how many playoff games he lost, Favre remains immune to criticism. Favre isn't even the greatest quarterback in the history of the Packers. It's not even close. Bart Starr won five NFL championships -- four more than Favre -- and retired as the NFL's most accurate passer.

Oh, you say Starr was surrounded by a Hall of Fame roster with a legendary coach. But Starr still is the NFL record holder with a 104.8 career playoff passer rating, nearly 20 points higher than Favre's. That wasn't Vince Lombardi or Ray Nitschke throwing those passes for Starr, whose career postseason passer rating, by the way, is 38 points higher than Johnny Unitas'.

Favre's career playoff record was 12-10. Starr's was 9-1 -- without the benefit of wild-card games. Favre threw 28 interceptions in 22 playoff games. Starr threw three in 10. Think about that -- just three picks in 213 postseason attempts. But Bart Starr gets the Ringo Starr treatment -- underappreciated and overlooked.

Favre gets put on a pedestal. Yes, he had a Pro Bowl season in 2007 with the youngest roster in the NFL. But his final moment on Lambeau Field was a wildly errant pass that turned into the NFC title for the Giants.

Indeed, a decade after his last moments of glory, the football hype machine continues to paint Favre as a hallowed icon of Americana, a symbol of all that is right with sports, a Wild West gun-slinging good ol' boy. There's Brett on the farm! There's Brett with his family! There's Brett on the cover of Sports Illustrated! There's Brett throwing another overtime interception!

Favre was among the best in the game, once upon a time. Those days are long gone. Only the idolatry remains.

This is adapted from the best-selling book "The Paolantonio Report: The Most Overrated and Underrated Players, Teams, Coaches and Moments in NFL History" by Sal Paolantonio with Reuben Frank, which is available in local bookstores and at Amazon.com.




So.Mn.Fan -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/8/2008 3:21:03 PM)

Just had that all que-ed up and ready to go, Toby.
Sal P nailed it for me on Favre.
Bright comet for quite awhile, but flamed out and lived on the fumes for a lonnnng time.




Lynn G. -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/8/2008 3:25:08 PM)

Sal Paolantonio is very brave to write that - but dead on accurate too.  I think in many cases sports writers have continued to idolize Favre out of habit, but in reality they have seen the extreme flaws themselves.




Justin Sampson -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/8/2008 7:03:23 PM)

Finally! Someone in the media finally had the guff to say it. Fav Ray is the definition of over-hyped.

He throws a pick in triple coverage - he was a gun slinger trying to make a play.
He loses a playoff game by having multiple turnovers - wasn't his fault, it's the players around him not playing with the same amount of heart.
He doen't make it to mandatory training camps - who cares, he's Brett Favre!




Steve Archer -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/8/2008 8:29:39 PM)

This is getting ridiculous.  Farve was a great QB and had a great career, but come on. The way the sports reporters and writers are carrying on you would think the man had died instead of retired.  How many times is the NFL Network going to show the Raiders &  Packer game played after Farve's dad died.  I know it had to be hard for him, I know what it was like when my father died.  But I'm sure he is not the only player to play a game after his father died.






djskillz -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/9/2008 12:16:13 AM)

Sal Pal is the MAN!  Great article, and 100 percent dead-on accurate too.




thebigo -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/9/2008 12:44:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E


The biggest reason that people love Favre is because he turned around a franchise that has a lot of history... but turning around Green Bay should be no more or less of an accomplishment than turning around, say, Miami. They myth and legend that Favre is, is built more on that than anything.


IMO Reggie White is the player that turned that franchise around.




Easy E -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/9/2008 3:11:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E


The biggest reason that people love Favre is because he turned around a franchise that has a lot of history... but turning around Green Bay should be no more or less of an accomplishment than turning around, say, Miami. They myth and legend that Favre is, is built more on that than anything.


IMO Reggie White is the player that turned that franchise around.


I agree. Like I said, Reggie was the real MVP of that team. And like I said, Favre's record without him is pretty poor as far as any "big" game goes.

Perception is that Favre turned around the greatest football team in the best football city. Perception is often wrong.




Lynn G. -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/9/2008 9:06:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Archer

This is getting ridiculous.  Farve was a great QB and had a great career, but come on. The way the sports reporters and writers are carrying on you would think the man had died instead of retired.  How many times is the NFL Network going to show the Raiders &  Packer game played after Farve's dad died.  I know it had to be hard for him, I know what it was like when my father died.  But I'm sure he is not the only player to play a game after his father died.





And I've actually always held a little different take on that game.  The talking heads have gone on and on for years about how "brave" he was to play in that game so soon after his father's death, and a "how is he able to hold up?" mentality.

I think that the people who were "brave" were Favre's mom and siblings who didn't have the luxury of losing themselves in a game of football.  They were the ones who had to go to the funeral home and make arrangements, and talk to the pastor/priest about the funeral service, etc. 

Favre's father died a short time after my own father's death and I was one of the ones at the funeral home dealing with all of those extremely hard issues.  I would have LOVED to have been able to play a game that I loved instead of doing all of those things.

That's always bothered me - that he has been deified for playing a game on the night that his siblings were back home calling relatives, picking out a casket, deciding on songs for the service, buying a funeral plot, reading through solemn verses to choose one for the memorial service program...

I don't give him anywhere near the kind of credit most people do.  He played a game, for cripes sake.  Lucky him.




Duane Sampson -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/9/2008 9:35:29 AM)

Aaron Rodgers: I'm Not Brett Favre
Sat Mar 8, 2008

AP reports QB Aaron Rodgers has a message for Green Bay Packers fans. "I'm not QB Brett Favre," he said Saturday. "And if they're wanting me to be the next Brett Favre, I'm not going to be him. I'm Aaron Rodgers. That's who I am." After spending three years running the scout team and watching game film during the week -- only to spend Sundays wearing a headset and toting a clipboard -- Rodgers' turn finally arrived when Favre retired. "I'm going to be the best quarterback I can be," said Rodgers, who was in Green Bay for the Packers' annual fan fest. "He did it his way, I'm going to do it my way. And hopefully, I can be successful." The Packers' first-round pick in 2005 has thrown a grand total of 59 passes in seven career games. But he played well when called on in a game at Dallas in November, and will be surrounded by young talent next season. "I'm in a good situation," said Rodgers, who turned 24 in December. "I've got a great team around me. A lot of people are focusing on what I'm going to do -- it's what the team's going to do, really. I'm an important part of that. I know my role and I need to play it well. And I'm not going to really have a grace period, either."


I wish I had a dime for each time you get reminded that you're not BF, Mr. Rodgers. [&:]




Easy E -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/9/2008 12:29:55 PM)

Lynn - the thing is, Brett really had no intention of playing in that game. His wife and family had to actually talk him into playing in that game, and they all watched and used it as an escape. Football was probalby as important to his father as anyone, and they all wanted Brett to have that game for him.

I don't give him credit for being brave, but I can respect him for putting his personal feelings aside and doing what his family wanted. Tradgedy is always hard to deal with and he did what he and his family thought would help them the most.

I don't hate Brett. He was a very good QB... he just got pumped up to a level beyond belief, where some people actualy believe he's one of the all time greats. And it's about 85% due to him being in Green Bay. If Brett had played his career in, say Atlanta, he'd have had the same career, a 2-3 year run as a great QB, etc. But he'd be viewed like Steve Young.




Lynn G. -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/9/2008 12:46:39 PM)

Eric,

There were differing reports.  Favre said a couple of times that he played to honor his father, which conflicts with the version that his family talked him into it.




djskillz -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/9/2008 1:57:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

Lynn - the thing is, Brett really had no intention of playing in that game. His wife and family had to actually talk him into playing in that game, and they all watched and used it as an escape. Football was probalby as important to his father as anyone, and they all wanted Brett to have that game for him.

I don't give him credit for being brave, but I can respect him for putting his personal feelings aside and doing what his family wanted. Tradgedy is always hard to deal with and he did what he and his family thought would help them the most.

I don't hate Brett. He was a very good QB... he just got pumped up to a level beyond belief, where some people actualy believe he's one of the all time greats. And it's about 85% due to him being in Green Bay. If Brett had played his career in, say Atlanta, he'd have had the same career, a 2-3 year run as a great QB, etc. But he'd be viewed like Steve Young.


Personally, I'd take Steve Young over Favre any day of the week and twice on Sunday. 

Young's QB rating still is the highest in the history of the league, right?




Guest -> RE: RE:The Packers (3/9/2008 7:15:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynn G.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Archer

This is getting ridiculous.  Farve was a great QB and had a great career, but come on. The way the sports reporters and writers are carrying on you would think the man had died instead of retired.  How many times is the NFL Network going to show the Raiders &  Packer game played after Farve's dad died.  I know it had to be hard for him, I know what it was like when my father died.  But I'm sure he is not the only player to play a game after his father died.





And I've actually always held a little different take on that game.  The talking heads have gone on and on for years about how "brave" he was to play in that game so soon after his father's death, and a "how is he able to hold up?" mentality.

I think that the people who were "brave" were Favre's mom and siblings who didn't have the luxury of losing themselves in a game of football.  They were the ones who had to go to the funeral home and make arrangements, and talk to the pastor/priest about the funeral service, etc. 

Favre's father died a short time after my own father's death and I was one of the ones at the funeral home dealing with all of those extremely hard issues.  I would have LOVED to have been able to play a game that I loved instead of doing all of those things.

That's always bothered me - that he has been deified for playing a game on the night that his siblings were back home calling relatives, picking out a casket, deciding on songs for the service, buying a funeral plot, reading through solemn verses to choose one for the memorial service program...

I don't give him anywhere near the kind of credit most people do.  He played a game, for cripes sake.  Lucky him.


Absolutly rediculous!




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