RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (Full Version)

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Trekgeekscott -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/4/2013 8:18:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Childress

I am not sure

I was a big proponent of the Vikings getting Flynn but now that doesn't look so good.

However

1. Russell Wilson may have been the best QB in last year's draft so losing out to him is not a huge indictment

2. The Raiders suck and I will be SHOCKED if Pryor plays well. I think his success in the preseason was due to facing 2nd string players. If Oak switched places perhaps Flynn would have looked better.

We shall see if Flynn ever gets a chance to start again


Simply put, two years in a row, Flynn was beaten out by an unknown commodity. 

I am sure he will get an opportunity to start before the season is out as I don't think Pryor is that good, but still, If Flynn were truly any good, he would have had that much competition for the job in the first place.

Seattle gave him a lot of money.
Raiders traded a some draft picks for him.

both of them thought he was worth something to acquire, then found out later that he wasn't what they thought he was. 

At this point, he will have to come on in relief of Pryor and lead the Raiders to several wins before I will believe he's worth a shit any more.



John Childress -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/4/2013 9:03:23 AM)

Is he better than Ponder?



Lynn G. -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/4/2013 9:38:25 AM)

Doubtful.



Trekgeekscott -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/4/2013 10:05:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Childress

Is he better than Ponder?


Who knows?

If we are going to replace a mediocre QB, i would prefer we do it someone who isn't mediocre as well.  Even if Flynn is a little better than Ponder it wouldn't be worth the cost at this point.  I want a good QB, I still think Ponder can be good, but this is put up or shut up year for him.  Flynn has failed two years in a row to beat out a QB with zero NFL starting experience.  Sure Russell Wilson turned out to be pretty damn good, but come on.  They spent a lot to get Flynn and then hand the job to an unproven (at the time) rookie. 

Now the Raiders, who blow unheavenly chunks, have done the same.  Handing the job to a guy who to this point has done nothing in the NFL.

Flynn must be showing something in OTAs, Minicamps, camp, Preseason that HCs don't like while their supposed understudies are showing something much better.

Flynn is quickly becoming the next Scott Mitchell,the guy everyone coveted until he got to their team.




John Childress -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/4/2013 12:36:08 PM)

You have no idea if Flynn is mediocre

He has only played a couple of real NFL game and when he played he was very good.



Lynn G. -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/4/2013 12:45:52 PM)

We're taking our cues from the professionals who see him in practice every day and send him packing.



thebigo -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/4/2013 12:56:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Childress

Is he better than Ponder?


Who knows?

If we are going to replace a mediocre QB, i would prefer we do it someone who isn't mediocre as well.  Even if Flynn is a little better than Ponder it wouldn't be worth the cost at this point.  I want a good QB, I still think Ponder can be good, but this is put up or shut up year for him.  Flynn has failed two years in a row to beat out a QB with zero NFL starting experience.  Sure Russell Wilson turned out to be pretty damn good, but come on.  They spent a lot to get Flynn and then hand the job to an unproven (at the time) rookie. 

Now the Raiders, who blow unheavenly chunks, have done the same.  Handing the job to a guy who to this point has done nothing in the NFL.

Flynn must be showing something in OTAs, Minicamps, camp, Preseason that HCs don't like while their supposed understudies are showing something much better.

Flynn is quickly becoming the next Scott Mitchell,the guy everyone coveted until he got to their team.




You might be setting that bar a bit high, Scott Mitchell had at least 1 probowl season for the Lions.



John Childress -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/4/2013 3:02:52 PM)

I value game performance far higher than practice



Lynn G. -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/4/2013 4:28:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Childress

I value game performance far higher than practice


So does everybody plus the late Elvis Presley.

My comment was in response to your statement that we don't know if Flynn is mediocre.

No, we don't. But there are people who see him much more than we do, in both games and practice, and they know him as a person (motivation, drive, attention, ability to learn a playbook, ability to read a defense...) and they have passed on him.



John Childress -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/4/2013 5:06:18 PM)

Like I said,

1. Russell Wilson may have been the best QB in the draft last year and is already a top 10 QB. Losing out to him is no shame.

2. Losing out to Pryor is a little different. I never thought much of him as a passer so this time I think it comes down to

A. It is Oakland - they always make bad QB decisions

or

B. You are right, the guy just can't cut it



Trekgeekscott -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/5/2013 7:32:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Childress

You have no idea if Flynn is mediocre

He has only played a couple of real NFL game and when he played he was very good.


Small sample size.

And the fact that he's lost out in open competition to what was at the time an unproven commodity, now twice, is enough to say he must be mediocre.




marty -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/5/2013 9:31:48 AM)

I'd agree and say he is probably mediocre, or it's likely he's mediocre But I don't think we REALLY know until he's started about 16 games.



thebigo -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/5/2013 9:43:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I'd agree and say he is probably mediocre, or it's likely he's mediocre But I don't think we REALLY know until he's started about 16 games.


This may never happen.



John Childress -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/5/2013 3:16:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Childress

You have no idea if Flynn is mediocre

He has only played a couple of real NFL game and when he played he was very good.


Small sample size.

And the fact that he's lost out in open competition to what was at the time an unproven commodity, now twice, is enough to say he must be mediocre.




That is ridiculous

You guys show no consistency in your arguments

So now practice > real games

But when talking about the poor play in preseason it was real games > preseason

So I guess it is


practice > real games > preseason


Even funnier is we have watched Ponder for 2 years of real games yet we are told that we don't know about him yet

Meanwhile, we are supposed to rate Flynn off of practices - that no one here has even seen - and we know he stinks

You guys don't see what is wrong with your argument?



Prescott -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/6/2013 7:51:34 AM)

I don't understand how losing out to a guy that proved to have the greatest rookie season of all time (arguably) proves you are mediocre. Similarly, I guess we'll have to see how good Pryor is to really know. Flynn could well be mediocre or worse. But not being handed the starting spot over Russell Wilson doesn't prove anything in my mind. If Pryor plays like I expect him too, it will. But maybe Pryor is better than I think.



Trekgeekscott -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/6/2013 2:51:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

I don't understand how losing out to a guy that proved to have the greatest rookie season of all time (arguably) proves you are mediocre. Similarly, I guess we'll have to see how good Pryor is to really know. Flynn could well be mediocre or worse. But not being handed the starting spot over Russell Wilson doesn't prove anything in my mind. If Pryor plays like I expect him too, it will. But maybe Pryor is better than I think.


Well, I will give this one try.

Flynn signed a big contract with the Seahawks.  That ususally gives you a leg up to be the starter.  The Seahawks spent a lot to get him. 

He then lost out to a guy that, at the time, was an unproven 3rd round draft pick.  Sure.  Wilson ended up having a good season...but there is no way to predict that when Wilson was given the job.  You are judging the decision based on 20/20 hindsight.  at the time the decision was made he lost a training camp to a 3rd round rookie.

Now this year, the Raiders gave up draft picks for the guy.  They spent a lot to get him, and after a training camp and preseason, he lost out to a guy that was a supplemental draft pick and has no experience outside of preseason...

TWO YEARS IN A ROW, the guy has lost a training camp battle to a highly unproven commodity.  Teams took HUGE risks starting the rookie/inexperienced guy OVER Flynn, a guy some people, based on two actual NFL starts, insteand of what should be the more proven commodity in Flynn.

What I am saying is that the coaches must be seeing something in practices and training camps or meetings where Flynn is not showing an aptitude to lead effectively or something where the younger guy is. 

Flynn, in his two NFL Starts, benefitted from a very good offensive scheme with a good HC and OC, and did very well in those starts, which probably elevated a lot people's analysis of his abilities.

With the Raiders I guess you can say that they know they are going to suck so they are giving the young guy a try to see if they should move forward next year...

but two years in a row a team spent a lot to acquire him and then opted not to start him.  To me, that speaks volumes.



Prescott -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/6/2013 3:01:49 PM)

quote:

Wilson ended up having a good season...but there is no way to predict that when Wilson was given the job.


Wilson didn't have a good year. He had perhaps the greatest single season by a rookie QB ever. And of course Seattle predicted by giving him the starting spot over Flynn. They took a lot of heat over the decision but predicted great things for Wilson. You said it yourself:

quote:


What I am saying is that the coaches must be seeing something in practices and training camps or meetings where Flynn is not showing an aptitude to lead effectively or something where the younger guy is.


The coaches obviously saw this in Russell Wilson and it turned out they were absolutely correct. It proves nothing at all, IMO, that they made this choice and were right. Now, if Pryor is merely average, or even bad, then it probably does say something about Flynn. But you seem stuck in a mode where a team should stick with the higher paid QB even if a rookie blows their socks off, and I don't think that's true. That's an outdated and wrongheaded concept, IMO and a team would be dumb to stick to it.



Trekgeekscott -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/6/2013 3:10:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

Wilson ended up having a good season...but there is no way to predict that when Wilson was given the job.


Wilson didn't have a good year. He had perhaps the greatest single season by a rookie QB ever. And of course Seattle predicted by giving him the starting spot over Flynn. They took a lot of heat over the decision but predicted great things for Wilson. You said it yourself:

quote:


What I am saying is that the coaches must be seeing something in practices and training camps or meetings where Flynn is not showing an aptitude to lead effectively or something where the younger guy is.


The coaches obviously saw this in Russell Wilson and it turned out they were absolutely correct. It proves nothing at all, IMO, that they made this choice and were right. Now, if Pryor is merely average, or even bad, then it probably does say something about Flynn. But you seem stuck in a mode where a team should stick with the higher paid QB even if a rookie blows their socks off, and I don't think that's true. That's an outdated and wrongheaded concept, IMO and a team would be dumb to stick to it.


No, I am not stuck n any mode where a team should stick with a higher paid QB.  In most organizations that gives the Higher paid guy a leg up.  and with that advantage he still couldn't beat an unproven rookie.   I applaud the Seahawks guts and decision actually.  but this discussion isn't about whether the hawks made the right decisioni, it's why I think FLYNN is mediocre.

At this point, after twice losing out to an unproven commodity when he should have had the leg up to win the job, tells me I don't want him.  He is at this point no better than Ponder. 




John Childress -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/6/2013 4:43:34 PM)

Losing out to Wilson proves nothing

Pryor is a little more surprising

I think Flynn gets one more shot



Prescott -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/6/2013 5:00:56 PM)

quote:

this discussion isn't about whether the hawks made the right decisioni, it's why I think FLYNN is mediocre.


And you're basing off the Seahawks seeing greatness in Wilson. Which doesn't make anyone mediocre, just not capable of the greatest rookie season of all time, which the Seahawks did see in Wilson. If they played Flynn and kept Wilson on the bench, who is to say that he doesn't play decently, throws for 3000 yards, 18TDs and 12Ints, and the Seahawks improve to 9-7? That's the point, that is likely why they paid for Flynn, that's why they got him. Because they wanted and expected a good QB. And then they saw in Wilson, during the preseason, 'greatness'. They said so at the time, and took some hits for it. But that doesn't prove anything about Flynn at all. Nothing. I know you said this over and over last year, but it's not really true.

If Pryor plays and sucks, you're most likely right about Flynn.



David Levine -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/6/2013 5:36:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

If Pryor plays and sucks, you're most likely right about Flynn.


I don't see Prior starting 16 games this year, so we'll likely see Flynn get his chances as well.



marty -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/6/2013 9:08:26 PM)

I think Flynn is likely mediocre, with a small chance that he might be great. I also think there is a pretty good chance the Vikes can get Flynn for cheap next year. But I also think the Vikes won't be considering him because Ponder is going to play well this year.



Prescott -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/8/2013 3:33:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

If Pryor plays and sucks, you're most likely right about Flynn.


I don't see Prior starting 16 games this year, so we'll likely see Flynn get his chances as well.


217 yards passing, 1 TD, 112 yards on the ground. Looking like another guy better than Ponder....



David Levine -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/8/2013 3:37:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prescott

If Pryor plays and sucks, you're most likely right about Flynn.


I don't see Prior starting 16 games this year, so we'll likely see Flynn get his chances as well.


217 yards passing, 1 TD, 112 yards on the ground. Looking like another guy better than Ponder....


He did throw 1 fewer INT than Ponder...

But he isn;t going to last running that much - although he is a lot bigger than I remember him being.



David Levine -> RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season (9/8/2013 3:39:27 PM)

Its super early (and against the 49ers), but Lacy doesn't look like he has the quickness to be a stud RB.



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