quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

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ORIGINAL: Ricky J

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ORIGINAL: ronhextall

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ORIGINAL: David Levine

Dianna Russini@DMRussini

The Vikings and tight end T.J. Hockenson have been working on an extension, but both sides are far apart, per league sources.
Hockenson wants to reset the market with a historic contract extension for tight ends.
He has been limited at practice because of an ear infection and back soreness.

Maybe why Detroit moved him? Not worth the pain in the ass.

Say everything that is said was true, and we don't know jack, how is his approach more of a pain in the ass than anyone else?

Haha I was about to post basically the same thing. This is a GOOD problem to have and is unavoidable. That said - I'm still surprised they are reportedly "far apart". I'd like to know which side is being unrealistic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Darren Waller's $17M is currently the biggest TE contract by AAV.

So, if true, he's looking at 18+?

I love Hock, but he's, at best, a Top 5 (maybe Top 8) TE.

Fortunately the franchise tag for a TE next year is around 12M (which might be the reason for the "soft holdout"...

Agree ... the tag / soft holdout is an interesting comment ... hadn't thought of that angle.

I also like TJ. Hope we keep him.

But I could also easily see us over-valuing TJ, given KOCs TE fetish.

I saw a fresh take on it. Kwesi hasn't signed anyone to a long term contract outside of the drafted rookies since he took over.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Darren Waller's $17M is currently the biggest TE contract by AAV.

So, if true, he's looking at 18+?

I love Hock, but he's, at best, a Top 5 (maybe Top 8) TE.

Fortunately the franchise tag for a TE next year is around 12M (which might be the reason for the "soft holdout"...

Agree ... the tag / soft holdout is an interesting comment ... hadn't thought of that angle.

I also like TJ. Hope we keep him.

But I could also easily see us over-valuing TJ, given KOCs TE fetish.

I saw a fresh take on it. Kwesi hasn't signed anyone to a long term contract outside of the drafted rookies since he took over.

That probably has more to do with inheriting a tight cap full of over-priced under-performing veterans … than GM style.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

No to resetting the TE market. He's good, but the very top TEs dominate when called on.

Another case where stats do not tell the whole story.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Darren Waller's $17M is currently the biggest TE contract by AAV.

So, if true, he's looking at 18+?

I love Hock, but he's, at best, a Top 5 (maybe Top 8) TE.

Fortunately the franchise tag for a TE next year is around 12M (which might be the reason for the "soft holdout"...

Agree ... the tag / soft holdout is an interesting comment ... hadn't thought of that angle.

I also like TJ. Hope we keep him.

But I could also easily see us over-valuing TJ, given KOCs TE fetish.

I saw a fresh take on it. Kwesi hasn't signed anyone to a long term contract outside of the drafted rookies since he took over.

That probably has more to do with inheriting a tight cap full of over-priced under-performing veterans … than GM style.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Darren Waller's $17M is currently the biggest TE contract by AAV.

So, if true, he's looking at 18+?

I love Hock, but he's, at best, a Top 5 (maybe Top 8) TE.

Fortunately the franchise tag for a TE next year is around 12M (which might be the reason for the "soft holdout"...

Agree ... the tag / soft holdout is an interesting comment ... hadn't thought of that angle.

I also like TJ. Hope we keep him.

But I could also easily see us over-valuing TJ, given KOCs TE fetish.

I saw a fresh take on it. Kwesi hasn't signed anyone to a long term contract outside of the drafted rookies since he took over.

That probably has more to do with inheriting a tight cap full of over-priced under-performing veterans … than GM style.

True...but he hasn't moved forward on any of the bigger 3 contracts yet either (JJ, TJ, and Darrisaw). So it seems like a fair take also.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

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ORIGINAL: David F.

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ORIGINAL: thebigo

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ORIGINAL: David F.

What hock is doing is unofficially referred to as a “hold in”. It’s like a hold-out except you show up so you don’t incur any fines but you still make it clear that you’re not going to be available to play. He’s probably worth a huge contract. Why did we trade for him if we didn’t anticipate this? I’d like to know what number they’re arguing over.

Not sure how faking an injury like vertigo anyone would expect that would increase their value

His value is established. He wants an extension and fears the franchise tag.

In reality he has reason to worry about it, doesn't he? I mean, cant the Vikes get 3 years out of him and he really can't do anything about it other than refuse to play?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Darren Waller's $17M is currently the biggest TE contract by AAV.

So, if true, he's looking at 18+?

I love Hock, but he's, at best, a Top 5 (maybe Top 8) TE.

Fortunately the franchise tag for a TE next year is around 12M (which might be the reason for the "soft holdout"...

Agree ... the tag / soft holdout is an interesting comment ... hadn't thought of that angle.

I also like TJ. Hope we keep him.

But I could also easily see us over-valuing TJ, given KOCs TE fetish.

I saw a fresh take on it. Kwesi hasn't signed anyone to a long term contract outside of the drafted rookies since he took over.

That probably has more to do with inheriting a tight cap full of over-priced under-performing veterans … than GM style.

Agree. Plus he signed several FAs to multi-year contracts and by default has a bunch of draftees with multi-year contracts. And it appears he is negotiating with Hock's agent. JJ is up next, assuming they want him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Darren Waller's $17M is currently the biggest TE contract by AAV.

So, if true, he's looking at 18+?

I love Hock, but he's, at best, a Top 5 (maybe Top 8) TE.

Fortunately the franchise tag for a TE next year is around 12M (which might be the reason for the "soft holdout"...

Agree ... the tag / soft holdout is an interesting comment ... hadn't thought of that angle.

I also like TJ. Hope we keep him.

But I could also easily see us over-valuing TJ, given KOCs TE fetish.

I saw a fresh take on it. Kwesi hasn't signed anyone to a long term contract outside of the drafted rookies since he took over.

That probably has more to do with inheriting a tight cap full of over-priced under-performing veterans … than GM style.

Agree. Plus he signed several FAs to multi-year contracts and by default has a bunch of draftees with multi-year contracts. And it appears he is negotiating with Hock's agent. JJ is up next, assuming they want him.

I doubt Hock is actually trying to 'reset the TE market' (regardless of some tweet from nobody).

Although it wouldn't surprise me if that was his agent's first sortie.

If true, Hock needs to go out and buy one of those little rubber nozzles to help him keep his ears clean. He's not getting that any time soon.

JJ and Darrisaw have to be the first big cash pits moving forward. It should be QB, LT, Pass Rusher (DE or Edge or OLB whatever) (or QB, Pass Rusher, LT if your HC is defensive minded).

A top 5 player like JJ changes that. But TE?

Not unless we're trying to get that out of the way / absorb some money this year to free up space for next year's actual position setting contracts ... which I highly doubt since we're at about 8+M right now (according to sportrac).

It will be interesting to see how hard a bargain we can get from our skinny slacks and high-priced loafer GM.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

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ORIGINAL: David F.

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ORIGINAL: thebigo

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ORIGINAL: David F.

What hock is doing is unofficially referred to as a “hold in”. It’s like a hold-out except you show up so you don’t incur any fines but you still make it clear that you’re not going to be available to play. He’s probably worth a huge contract. Why did we trade for him if we didn’t anticipate this? I’d like to know what number they’re arguing over.

Not sure how faking an injury like vertigo anyone would expect that would increase their value

His value is established. He wants an extension and fears the franchise tag.

In reality he has reason to worry about it, doesn't he? I mean, cant the Vikes get 3 years out of him and he really can't do anything about it other than refuse to play?

Since the Vikings have the franchise tag option how about Hock accepts a reasonable contract. If the tag is at 12 million and the Vikings offer 13.5 that seems like a nice compromise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

What hock is doing is unofficially referred to as a “hold in”. It’s like a hold-out except you show up so you don’t incur any fines but you still make it clear that you’re not going to be available to play. He’s probably worth a huge contract. Why did we trade for him if we didn’t anticipate this? I’d like to know what number they’re arguing over.

Not sure how faking an injury like vertigo anyone would expect that would increase their value

His value is established. He wants an extension and fears the franchise tag.

In reality he has reason to worry about it, doesn't he? I mean, cant the Vikes get 3 years out of him and he really can't do anything about it other than refuse to play?

Since the Vikings have the franchise tag option how about Hock accepts a reasonable contract. If the tag is at 12 million and the Vikings offer 13.5 that seems like a nice compromise.

Granted that the average annual value can be irrelevant depending on what the guaranteed money is, a contract averaging 13.5 million would put Hock at the 8th highest AAV, right between David Njoku and Dawson Knox. He's going to get more than that. Hock's contract is going to have to look A LOT like George Kittle's contract. Kittle got $75 million over 5 years with $40 million guaranteed. And considering that Kittle's contract was signed in 2020 we could easily add 20% to those numbers - say $90 million over 5 years with $50 million guaranteed.

All that being said - Kittle put up way bigger stats than Hockenson - it's just that Kirk threw to him so damn much last year that Hock has never looked better at any point in his career.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Darren Waller's $17M is currently the biggest TE contract by AAV.

So, if true, he's looking at 18+?

I love Hock, but he's, at best, a Top 5 (maybe Top 8) TE.

Fortunately the franchise tag for a TE next year is around 12M (which might be the reason for the "soft holdout"...

Agree ... the tag / soft holdout is an interesting comment ... hadn't thought of that angle.

I also like TJ. Hope we keep him.

But I could also easily see us over-valuing TJ, given KOCs TE fetish.

I saw a fresh take on it. Kwesi hasn't signed anyone to a long term contract outside of the drafted rookies since he took over.

That probably has more to do with inheriting a tight cap full of over-priced under-performing veterans … than GM style.

Agree. Plus he signed several FAs to multi-year contracts and by default has a bunch of draftees with multi-year contracts. And it appears he is negotiating with Hock's agent. JJ is up next, assuming they want him.

I doubt Hock is actually trying to 'reset the TE market' (regardless of some tweet from nobody).

Although it wouldn't surprise me if that was his agent's first sortie.

If true, Hock needs to go out and buy one of those little rubber nozzles to help him keep his ears clean. He's not getting that any time soon.

JJ and Darrisaw have to be the first big cash pits moving forward. It should be QB, LT, Pass Rusher (DE or Edge or OLB whatever) (or QB, Pass Rusher, LT if your HC is defensive minded).

A top 5 player like JJ changes that. But TE?

Not unless we're trying to get that out of the way / absorb some money this year to free up space for next year's actual position setting contracts ... which I highly doubt since we're at about 8+M right now (according to sportrac).

It will be interesting to see how hard a bargain we can get from our skinny slacks and high-priced loafer GM.

Not exactly a nobody. She was one of ESPN's Top NFL people for the past decade and left to become the senior NFL Insider at The Athletic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

Maybe I'm cynical.

'Far apart on negotiations according to league sources' (league sources like herself?) ... I buy that as smoke.

'Resetting the market at his position'? I'll buy that as agent speak / tactics ...

We'll see, I'm a horrible judge of people ... Hock doesn't seem like the acrimonious, go tooth and nail with my employer type ... even if I like my job.

Unless Kwesi 'insulted him' with a Nordstroms coupon / lowball offer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

Maybe I'm cynical.

'Far apart on negotiations according to league sources' (league sources like herself?) ... I buy that as smoke.

'Resetting the market at his position'? I'll buy that as agent speak / tactics ...

We'll see, I'm a horrible judge of people ... Hock doesn't seem like the acrimonious, go tooth and nail with my employer type ... even if I like my job.

Unless Kwesi 'insulted him' with a Nordstroms coupon / lowball offer.

How do you come to that judgement of hockenson? I saw you disclaimed it by admitting you can be a horrible judge, but I’m wondering how you even form an opinion on a pro athlete’s motivation and/or character. By how they celebrate a touchdown? What kind of suit they wear?

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Poster "Krauser" actually makes some really good points in favor of trading for Lance in the comments here:

https://www.dailynorseman.com/2023/8/23/23843722/should-the-vikings-trade-for-trey-lance

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Poster "Krauser" actually makes some really good points in favor of trading for Lance in the comments here:

https://www.dailynorseman.com/2023/8/23/23843722/should-the-vikings-trade-for-trey-lance

+1
Few points he made:
1) His roster bonus is paid this year, so it's $940K for 2023. Next year would be $5.3M not $10M.
2) One rumor floated by Benjamin Albright (Broncos insider) on twitter was the Vikings sending a pass rusher to SF for Lance, with picks moving both ways. That could be something like this:
DJ Wonnum and a mid-round pick (4th?)
for Trey Lance and a late round pick (6th?)
...the difference in draft capital there would be equivalent to an early 5th, plus Wonnum who might be worth a 6th, would be roughly equal to a 4th
3)Last PreSeaon Game All 22
…the good stuff is high quality: pocket movement and escapability, good arm strength, throws under pressure, improvising and making plays off script, throws with anticipation, throws to tight windows downfield over the middle

4)Last PreSeason Game All 22
…the bad stuff is mostly dumb mistakes: a bad throw on the screen, 2 missed reads, holding the ball on quick game and compounding that with a bad decision (he’s very good on several other quick game snaps)

5) Maybe he’ll never learn or improve, but if he’s able to clean up those mistakes with another year or two of experience, Lance has the tools to be a good starter
6) Another year or two of experience takes you out of his (relatively) cheap rookie deal and you'd have to pay him like a good starter. Right, but he might actually be a very good starter. Like I said in the other comment, they’re looking for an upgrade from Cousins, not just a cheaper replacement.