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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/20/2024 9:39:03 PM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

So Tom, why do you think the odds are stacked against Flores ?

I wasn't asking for a complete list of OCs or DCs for the Vikings.

I was talking about coordinators that did very well for the Vikings, then got head coaching positions. The 3 I listed, all went on to win Super Bowls as head coaches.

Stefanski did ok as an OC for Minnesota, but it was only one season, and the verdict is still out on him as a head coach.

Can you list OCs or DCs that did well in those positions in Minnesota, then got head coaching positions, and then failed as a head coach ?

no.

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 9/21/2024 9:39:31 AM >

Post #: 2151

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2024 11:11:00 AM

David Levine

Posts: 77942
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline

How about list guys that failed as HCs and then found that they’re better coordinators?

I’ll start.

Brian Flores.

Post #: 2152

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2024 11:52:07 AM

marty

Posts: 13049
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

When you've lost the argument, then change the parameters.

Can you list OCs or DCs that did well in those positions in Minnesota, then got head coaching positions, and then failed as a head coach ?

I listed 3 that went on to win Super Bowls as head coaches.

Flores did go 10-6, and 9-7 as a head coach at Miami, that isn't bad.

So if the Vikings continue to improve on defense, you don't think Flores will ever get a chance to head coach again ?

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 2153

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2024 12:29:30 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77942
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline

He might get another chance.

But to say because some guys, decades ago, won Suoer Bowls after leaving makes any kind of difference in Flores’ chances is absurd.

Post #: 2154

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2024 12:35:09 PM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

When you've lost the argument, then change the parameters.

Can you list OCs or DCs that did well in those positions in Minnesota, then got head coaching positions, and then failed as a head coach ?

I listed 3 that went on to win Super Bowls as head coaches.

Flores did go 10-6, and 9-7 as a head coach at Miami, that isn't bad.

So if the Vikings continue to improve on defense, you don't think Flores will ever get a chance to head coach again ?

Your premise that we should fire KOC and hire Flores before he gets away is way too premature at this point to call an argument.

Its you daydreaming and thinking you can support that daydream by looking at Brian Billick or any other coordinator.

I expect Flores to get a HC position at some point. Certainly if the defense keeps playing well.

Who knows when and in what situation ... which will have a lot to do with his success as a HC. Its not all on what the coach brings to the table.

As far as SB winning potential ... you are obviously just pulling that out of your back-end. Past coordinators have nothing to with Flores' situation.

Post #: 2155

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2024 12:45:31 PM

beo

Posts: 2394
Joined: 3/18/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Now do the list of former Vikings' coordinators to not win Super Bowls.

Be my guest David, since this is YOUR idea. And be sure to only include guys that were great coordinators for the Vikings, defense or offense, and not coaches that didn't even reach the level of being a coordinator.

It will be interesting to see what your research shows David.

My quick research, off the top of my head, produced 2 great defensive coordinators and one offensive coordinator for the Vikings, that ALL went on to become head coaches that won Super Bowls.

Let's see what you come up with David ....

Off the top of my head (accuracy questionable...)

Scott Linehan
Leslie Frazier
Pat Shurmur
Kevin Stefanski

Move over for The Google please

Wes Phillips 2022-2024
Klint Kubiak 2021
Gary Kubiak 2020
Kevin Stefanski 2019
John DeFilippo 2018
Pat Shurmur 2017
Norv Turner 2014-2016
Bill Musgrave 2011-2013
Darrell Bevell 2006-2010
Steve Loney 2005
Scott Linehan 2002-2004
Sherman Lewis 2000-2001
Ray Sherman 1999
Brian Billick 1994-1998
Jack Burns 1992-1993
Tom Moore 1991
Bob Schnelker 1986-1990
Jerry Burns 1968-1985
---------
Brian Flores 2023-2024
Ed Donatell 2022
George Edwards 2014-2019
Alan Williams 2012-2013
Fred Pagac 2011
Leslie Frazier 2007-2010
Mike Tomlin 2006
Ted Cottrell 2004-2005
George O'Leary 2003
Willie Shaw 2002
Emmitt Thomas 2000-2001
Foge Fazio 1996-1999
Tony Dungy 1992-1995
Monte Kiffin 1991
Floyd Peters 1986-1990
Bob Hollway 1967-1970, 1978-1983, 1985 86
Floyd Reese 1984
Neill Armstrong 1971-1977

Far from a complete list but for anybody not using martymath, the odds are stacked against Flores becoming a HC and winning a SB.

Does Flores even want to be a head coach after his experience in Miami? Of course he does. I think he'll be extra picky and take his time finding the right fit. In the meantime, he can continue building his reputation as an outstanding coordinator – the higher that goes, the better his choices. He might not automatically be gone next offseason.

Also ... KOC and KAM fit together like a hand inside a velvet glove. I'm not sure what that means but it insinuates that their partnership is healthy and even vigorous.

quote:

Scott Linehan
Leslie Frazier
Pat Shurmur
Kevin Stefanski

The question was coordinators who went on to head coach...
other than Marty's.... I think this is the list

Scott Linehan
Leslie Frazier
Pat Shurmur
Kevin Stefanski

Post #: 2156

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2024 1:31:37 PM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Now do the list of former Vikings' coordinators to not win Super Bowls.

Be my guest David, since this is YOUR idea. And be sure to only include guys that were great coordinators for the Vikings, defense or offense, and not coaches that didn't even reach the level of being a coordinator.

It will be interesting to see what your research shows David.

My quick research, off the top of my head, produced 2 great defensive coordinators and one offensive coordinator for the Vikings, that ALL went on to become head coaches that won Super Bowls.

Let's see what you come up with David ....

Off the top of my head (accuracy questionable...)

Scott Linehan
Leslie Frazier
Pat Shurmur
Kevin Stefanski

Move over for The Google please

Wes Phillips 2022-2024
Klint Kubiak 2021
Gary Kubiak 2020
Kevin Stefanski 2019
John DeFilippo 2018
Pat Shurmur 2017
Norv Turner 2014-2016
Bill Musgrave 2011-2013
Darrell Bevell 2006-2010
Steve Loney 2005
Scott Linehan 2002-2004
Sherman Lewis 2000-2001
Ray Sherman 1999
Brian Billick 1994-1998
Jack Burns 1992-1993
Tom Moore 1991
Bob Schnelker 1986-1990
Jerry Burns 1968-1985
---------
Brian Flores 2023-2024
Ed Donatell 2022
George Edwards 2014-2019
Alan Williams 2012-2013
Fred Pagac 2011
Leslie Frazier 2007-2010
Mike Tomlin 2006
Ted Cottrell 2004-2005
George O'Leary 2003
Willie Shaw 2002
Emmitt Thomas 2000-2001
Foge Fazio 1996-1999
Tony Dungy 1992-1995
Monte Kiffin 1991
Floyd Peters 1986-1990
Bob Hollway 1967-1970, 1978-1983, 1985 86
Floyd Reese 1984
Neill Armstrong 1971-1977

Far from a complete list but for anybody not using martymath, the odds are stacked against Flores becoming a HC and winning a SB.

Does Flores even want to be a head coach after his experience in Miami? Of course he does. I think he'll be extra picky and take his time finding the right fit. In the meantime, he can continue building his reputation as an outstanding coordinator – the higher that goes, the better his choices. He might not automatically be gone next offseason.

Also ... KOC and KAM fit together like a hand inside a velvet glove. I'm not sure what that means but it insinuates that their partnership is healthy and even vigorous.

quote:

Scott Linehan
Leslie Frazier
Pat Shurmur
Kevin Stefanski

The question was coordinators who went on to head coach...
other than Marty's.... I think this is the list

Scott Linehan
Leslie Frazier
Pat Shurmur
Kevin Stefanski

Yes you are right.

But ... I believe Marty is trying to narrow down the pool of candidates to increase the possibility of his asinine premise.

"And be sure to only include guys that were great coordinators for the Vikings, defense or offense, and not coaches that didn't even reach the level of being a coordinator."

EDIT: No small or complete review of past coordinators has anything to do with Flores POTENTIAL situation.

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 9/21/2024 2:02:15 PM >

Post #: 2157

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2024 2:18:14 PM

marty

Posts: 13049
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

I will simplify for you Tom, apparently you need that.

The Vikings have a little history of letting some good coordinators that go on to become head coaches that win Super Bowls, while the Vikings don't even make a Super Bowl appearance during that time. You hate to let another one get away.

The trick is recognizing someone that excels as a coordinator, and as a leader. I am not eager to move on from KOC, he is now securing his job, so there probably won't be need to hang onto Flores.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 2158

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2024 2:39:09 PM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I will simplify for you Tom, apparently you need that.

The Vikings have a little history of letting some good coordinators that go on to become head coaches that win Super Bowls, while the Vikings don't even make a Super Bowl appearance during that time. You hate to let another one get away.

The trick is recognizing someone that excels as a coordinator, and as a leader. I am not eager to move on from KOC, he is now securing his job, so there probably won't be need to hang onto Flores.

I know you’re trying to be insulting … its actually changed your ridiculous early comment into something more logical.

Glad I could assist.

Post #: 2159

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2024 2:47:03 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28619
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I will simplify for you Tom, apparently you need that.

The Vikings have a little history of letting some good coordinators that go on to become head coaches that win Super Bowls, while the Vikings don't even make a Super Bowl appearance during that time. You hate to let another one get away.

The trick is recognizing someone that excels as a coordinator, and as a leader. I am not eager to move on from KOC, he is now securing his job, so there probably won't be need to hang onto Flores.

I know you’re trying to be insulting … its actually changed your ridiculous early comment into something more logical.

Glad I could assist.

Nice

Post #: 2160

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2024 2:49:31 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28619
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

He might get another chance.

But to say because some guys, decades ago, won Suoer Bowls after leaving makes any kind of difference in Flores’ chances is absurd.

He's one of those people Vegas craves: the roulette wheel has come up black three times in a row and that history is key... so I'm all in on red!

Post #: 2161

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/21/2024 4:29:54 PM

marty

Posts: 13049
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

Thanks Tom.

I agree with your point that I am pushing the envelope a little too soon, and we should just wait and see how things play out.

Maybe we'll get lucky and teams will keep passing on BFlo, fearing he could be a problem.

The number is at 3 for coordinators that went in to win Super Bowls, while the Vikings have zero Super Bowl wins during that time, I would hate to see it go to 4, or to 5 or 6 in the next 10 or 15 years, while the Vikings still don't get one.

Let's hope the defense continues to be excellent, and KOC gets the offense rolling with Darnold and company.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 2162

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/22/2024 6:57:43 AM

Phil Riewer

Posts: 27433
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline

Usually you worry about coaches during very successful or unsuccessful seasons. 2-0 is neither at this point.

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KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq

Post #: 2163

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/22/2024 8:15:26 AM

Ricky J

Posts: 18357
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

Right, but who's not excited about today?

Id be nice to get another week out of this cautious optimism

Post #: 2164

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/22/2024 8:52:34 AM

Daniel Lee Young

Posts: 14017
Status: offline

I’m so confident that our HFA is gonna carry us, to a win.. that I actually picked the vikes in my parlay, +2 points..

Let’s GOOOOOO!!!

You all realize, I just cursed this team, right?

< Message edited by Daniel Lee Young -- 9/22/2024 8:53:39 AM >

Post #: 2165

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/22/2024 9:30:39 AM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9563
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

I’m so confident that our HFA is gonna carry us, to a win.. that I actually picked the vikes in my parlay, +2 points..

Let’s GOOOOOO!!!

You all realize, I just cursed this team, right?

.
one of the things that have carried us so far is our strong position depth...look for trishton jackson to catch a deep pass today....

The #Vikings have elevated OLB Bo Richter and TE Robert Tonyan to the active roster for tomorrow’s game.

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.

Post #: 2166

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/22/2024 9:58:06 AM

Bill Jandro

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Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

We should get a little more pass catching ability from Tonyan compared to Muse.There were very good reports about Tonyan during TC until he got injured.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 2167

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/22/2024 10:48:02 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28619
Status: offline

The win over SF should have shown teams like Houston they need to get up for the game and not take the Vikings lightly. So for a couple of reasons today is a bit of a statement game. Not that the team has 'arrived' with a win, but that there is at least an air of legitimacy in any early-season conversation.

More importantly, one game at a time and all the other cliches.

Post #: 2168

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/22/2024 4:39:52 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77942
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline

The Vikings have only trailed for 3 minutes and 46 seconds in 3 games.

And that was after the fumble where the Giants were up 3-0.

Post #: 2169

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/22/2024 4:43:18 PM

Jeff Jesser

Posts: 19462
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: offline

WOW! Corrupt much?

Goff threw a pick 6 and the refs called it back to say the play didn't get off before the 2 minute warning. They slow played the play and the ball was clearly snapped at 2:01. Not reviewable

Post #: 2170

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/22/2024 4:51:56 PM

thebigo

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Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

Watching the game today as things played out, rolling through the second half, increasing the lead, it took a while for me to realize that Vikings were dominating the steam on both sides of the line. Just because of my earlier expectations of this team I didn't expect such dominance over this Texans team.

Post #: 2171

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/22/2024 5:15:33 PM

Todd M

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Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

Getting hands and arms on balls at or near the LOS is so hot right now

Post #: 2172

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/22/2024 6:13:35 PM

Todd M

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Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

Chill Riechard .

No stress when he lines up. One impressive rookie.

< Message edited by Todd M -- 9/22/2024 6:30:30 PM >

Post #: 2173

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/22/2024 6:16:27 PM

Ricky J

Posts: 18357
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

Out of curiosity I checked out this weeks espn nfl power rankings:

1 KC
2 Buf
3 SF
4 Hou
11 MN

edit: seemed a little more impressive before LAR came back to win.

< Message edited by Ricky J -- 9/22/2024 6:46:11 PM >

Post #: 2174

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/22/2024 6:58:53 PM

TJSweens

Posts: 45022
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Chill Riechard .

No stress when he lines up. One impressive rookie.

I no longer cringe when we line up for a PAT.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 2175