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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/19/2024 1:00:28 PM

marty

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Let's not forget, this team has not lost a game since McCarthy became a Viking (5-0, including pre-season games).

McCarthy is a winner.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/19/2024 1:05:56 PM

marty

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While I agree with several of the points you were making Dave, defenses need to respect your going deep, or it gets easier to defend you.

But I also think most deep passes are completed early in seasons, and it gets harder to complete deep passes later in the season, when defenses are gelling, and they have more film on you.

Even a team like the Rams when they had all their deep threats, didn't get a lot of deep passes late in their season. In fact, they didn't complete ANY deep passes against the Titans in the Super Bowl, and the only somewhat deep pass completed, was an underthrow where the wide receiver had to come back for it.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/19/2024 1:09:41 PM

Tom Sykes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

We also need to see if we can maintain this level of defense through a whole year.

We had this exact same conversation well into last year, and then we got a bit exposed and finished the year 13th in Points and 16th in Yards - and Flores was a total non-factor in HC searches.

Same conversation but less talent....to end up 13th last year was a miracle with Flores smoke and mirrors.

To be determined.

Absolutely.

Flores did wonders last year relative to the year before. However, if you break it down farther, he did much better early than late. Which is the opposite of what you want.

This year we actually have something fair to compare this defense to ... last year.

Its just two weeks in. No need to anoint people with blessed oils and the waving of incense.

No need to fire O'Connell right this very moment out of fear that Flores will move on after the season.

Or jump on extending Darnold for starter money. We just broke free from those starter money shackles. We just wriggled through that barbed wire penitentiary fence ... for some free air.

So far so good. One step at a time.

Post #: 2128

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/19/2024 1:12:45 PM

marty

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Joined: 12/28/2007
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Umm why? 2-0 and now you want a different HC? KOC does not equal Chilly.

No, I want to keep what is the main ingredient as to why we are 2-0, and that's Brian Flores.

It's not like the Vikings are scoring 30 or 40 points a game, and 7 of the points in the 1st game was a defensive score, and they almost had a score of an INT in the 2nd game.

While I have liked what I have seen in KOC's play calling so far, there were some concerns in the past, I am just happy we have Flores for another season, this season.

Super Bowl winning head coaches: Dungy, Billick, Tomlin, BFlo ?

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Post #: 2129

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/19/2024 1:14:19 PM 1 votes

marty

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Umm why? 2-0 and now you want a different HC? KOC does not equal Chilly.

No, I want to keep what is the main ingredient as to why we are 2-0, and that's Brian Flores.

It's not like the Vikings are scoring 30 or 40 points a game, and 7 of the points in the 1st game was a defensive score, and they almost had a score off an INT in the 2nd game.

While I have liked what I have seen in KOC's play calling so far, there were some concerns in the past, I am just happy we have Flores for another season, this season.

Super Bowl winning head coaches: Dungy, Billick, Tomlin, BFlo ?

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Post #: 2130

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/19/2024 1:33:20 PM

TJSweens

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

We also need to see if we can maintain this level of defense through a whole year.

We had this exact same conversation well into last year, and then we got a bit exposed and finished the year 13th in Points and 16th in Yards - and Flores was a total non-factor in HC searches.

Not to mention Tua Tagovailoa had some pretty sharp criticism of the way Flores treated players as a head coach. Short of an elite defensive season and a playoff run, I think losing Flores to a head coaching job is less inevitable than some might think.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/19/2024 1:36:03 PM 1 votes

beo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Umm why? 2-0 and now you want a different HC? KOC does not equal Chilly.

No, I want to keep what is the main ingredient as to why we are 2-0, and that's Brian Flores.

It's not like the Vikings are scoring 30 or 40 points a game, and 7 of the points in the 1st game was a defensive score, and they almost had a score off an INT in the 2nd game.

While I have liked what I have seen in KOC's play calling so far, there were some concerns in the past, I am just happy we have Flores for another season, this season.

Super Bowl winning head coaches: Dungy, Billick, Tomlin, BFlo ?

"Dungy, Billick, Tomlin"
Those guys were all previously failed head coaches right?
Ones that had former players blasting them?

We have a great team culture at the moment... winning... and you want to blow it up to go back to the Zimmer days.

You think Flores wants to have owners that are willing to throw out coaches during a winning year... that after his experience in Miami he wants owners that are that fickle...

Flores is a great DC, imo.
There is no evidence he is a great HC.

Maybe focus on keeping the train rolling... become the new Dungy/Kiffin or Cowher/LeBeau combo and win some superbowls.

Post #: 2132

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/19/2024 1:49:21 PM 1 votes

David Levine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Umm why? 2-0 and now you want a different HC? KOC does not equal Chilly.

No, I want to keep what is the main ingredient as to why we are 2-0, and that's Brian Flores.

It's not like the Vikings are scoring 30 or 40 points a game, and 7 of the points in the 1st game was a defensive score, and they almost had a score off an INT in the 2nd game.

While I have liked what I have seen in KOC's play calling so far, there were some concerns in the past, I am just happy we have Flores for another season, this season.

Super Bowl winning head coaches: Dungy, Billick, Tomlin, BFlo ?

"Dungy, Billick, Tomlin"
Those guys were all previously failed head coaches right?
Ones that had former players blasting them?

We have a great team culture at the moment... winning... and you want to blow it up to go back to the Zimmer days.

You think Flores wants to have owners that are willing to throw out coaches during a winning year... that after his experience in Miami he wants owners that are that fickle...

Flores is a great DC, imo.
There is no evidence he is a great HC.

Maybe focus on keeping the train rolling... become the new Dungy/Kiffin or Cowher/LeBeau combo and win some superbowls.

Zero evidence.

3 years as a HC, 24-25 Overall:

2019: 5-11, Missed Playoffs. Offense: 27th in Yards, 25th in Points. Defense: 30th in Yards, 32nd in Points.
2020: 10-6, Missed Playoffs. Offense: 22nd in Yards, 15th in Points. Defense: 20th in Yards, 6th in Points.
2021: 9-8, Missed Playoffs. Offense: 25th in Yards, 22nd in Points. Defense: 15th in Yards, 16th in Points.

That's not to say he won't do better if given another chance, but its not some kind of given. And definitely not basing a decision on Vikings history from decades ago.

Post #: 2133

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/19/2024 3:07:10 PM

Phil Riewer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Umm why? 2-0 and now you want a different HC? KOC does not equal Chilly.

No, I want to keep what is the main ingredient as to why we are 2-0, and that's Brian Flores.

It's not like the Vikings are scoring 30 or 40 points a game, and 7 of the points in the 1st game was a defensive score, and they almost had a score of an INT in the 2nd game.

While I have liked what I have seen in KOC's play calling so far, there were some concerns in the past, I am just happy we have Flores for another season, this season.

Super Bowl winning head coaches: Dungy, Billick, Tomlin, BFlo ?

Way too much credit to the DC and not enough to the other 2 that brought in the talent. Simple example/exhibit 1: KOC mentioned Van Ginkel first to Flores. Talent and depth is needed to win in the league.

Would you rather have Mullens or Darnold. Would you rather have Hicks or Cashmen.....DJ Wonnum or Van Ginkel.....Mattison or Jones . None of those four examples were decided by Flores but upgraded your team.

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 9/19/2024 3:09:46 PM >

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/19/2024 4:21:26 PM

marty

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"Dungy, Billick, Tomlin"
Those guys were all previously failed head coaches right?
....

They are three former Vikings' coordinators that went on to win a Super Bowl as a head coach, BFlo could be next.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/19/2024 4:24:24 PM

marty

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Also, there was zero evidence that Dungy, Billick and Tomlin would become great head coaches, head coaches that would win Super Bowls. BFlo at least has the Dolphins winning games at the end of the season where he was a head coach.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/19/2024 4:26:01 PM

David Levine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

"Dungy, Billick, Tomlin"
Those guys were all previously failed head coaches right?
....

They are three former Vikings' coordinators that went on to win a Super Bowl as a head coach, BFlo could be next.

Now do the list of former Vikings' coordinators to not win Super Bowls.

Post #: 2137

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/19/2024 4:30:24 PM

David Levine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Also, there was zero evidence that Dungy, Billick and Tomlin would become great head coaches, head coaches that would win Super Bowls. BFlo at least has the Dolphins winning games at the end of the season where he was a head coach.

Was Billick a "great head coach"?

He was an offensive coach that inherited a great defense and special teams. He had the 15th ranked offense the year they won the SB.

He had 8 Playoff games in 9 years. 4 of them in a single season.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/19/2024 9:01:00 PM

Bill Johanesen

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Smackdown city!

Post #: 2139

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/19/2024 11:46:38 PM

beo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

"Dungy, Billick, Tomlin"
Those guys were all previously failed head coaches right?
....

They are three former Vikings' coordinators that went on to win a Super Bowl as a head coach, BFlo could be next.

Yes, but you are missing my point, Marty.

None of those guys flopped in their 1st head coaching gig.
Flores did... so the pattern that you see is not one I agree with.

Just my opinion, but I think it's likely Flores is a much better DC than HC.

Post #: 2140

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/20/2024 7:44:06 AM

Todd M

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It’s hard for me to just let it unfold. Having a fast forward mindset is not the best for me.

Life in between Sundays.

It’s so hard. I think we’re good and could roll.

Post #: 2141

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/20/2024 7:54:39 AM

Todd M

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**** it. It’s 20-0 or bust. Imma peak into the future…

.
.
.

damn

Post #: 2142

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/20/2024 1:14:58 PM

marty

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Was Billick a great head coach ?

I will take ANY great coordinator that goes on to win a Super Bowl as a head coach, even if you don't think they were great head coaches.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/20/2024 1:19:27 PM

marty

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Now do the list of former Vikings' coordinators to not win Super Bowls.

Be my guest David, since this is YOUR idea. And be sure to only include guys that were great coordinators for the Vikings, defense or offense, and not coaches that didn't even reach the level of being a coordinator.

It will be interesting to see what your research shows David.

My quick research, off the top of my head, produced 2 great defensive coordinators and one offensive coordinator for the Vikings, that ALL went on to become head coaches that won Super Bowls.

Let's see what you come up with David ....

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/20/2024 3:48:21 PM

ratoppenheimer

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From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
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.
out this sunday....

addison
turner
pace

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/20/2024 3:50:35 PM

beo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Now do the list of former Vikings' coordinators to not win Super Bowls.

Be my guest David, since this is YOUR idea. And be sure to only include guys that were great coordinators for the Vikings, defense or offense, and not coaches that didn't even reach the level of being a coordinator.

It will be interesting to see what your research shows David.

My quick research, off the top of my head, produced 2 great defensive coordinators and one offensive coordinator for the Vikings, that ALL went on to become head coaches that won Super Bowls.

Let's see what you come up with David ....

Off the top of my head (accuracy questionable...)

Scott Linehan
Leslie Frazier
Pat Shurmur
Kevin Stefanski

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/20/2024 3:51:46 PM

beo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
out this sunday....

addison
turner
pace

Really want to see Addison back on the field... could make the offense turbocharged.

Wondering how serious that Turner injury is.
Should be fine... pass rushing depth has been a pleasant surpise.

Anyone know what happened to Pace?

Post #: 2147

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/20/2024 5:31:12 PM

ratoppenheimer

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From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
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quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
out this sunday....

addison
turner
pace

Really want to see Addison back on the field... could make the offense turbocharged.

Wondering how serious that Turner injury is.
Should be fine... pass rushing depth has been a pleasant surpise.

Anyone know what happened to Pace?

from o'connell's presser, it sounds like they'll all be back against the packers....

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/20/2024 6:21:15 PM

Tom Sykes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Now do the list of former Vikings' coordinators to not win Super Bowls.

Be my guest David, since this is YOUR idea. And be sure to only include guys that were great coordinators for the Vikings, defense or offense, and not coaches that didn't even reach the level of being a coordinator.

It will be interesting to see what your research shows David.

My quick research, off the top of my head, produced 2 great defensive coordinators and one offensive coordinator for the Vikings, that ALL went on to become head coaches that won Super Bowls.

Let's see what you come up with David ....

Off the top of my head (accuracy questionable...)

Scott Linehan
Leslie Frazier
Pat Shurmur
Kevin Stefanski

Move over for The Google please

Wes Phillips 2022-2024
Klint Kubiak 2021
Gary Kubiak 2020
Kevin Stefanski 2019
John DeFilippo 2018
Pat Shurmur 2017
Norv Turner 2014-2016
Bill Musgrave 2011-2013
Darrell Bevell 2006-2010
Steve Loney 2005
Scott Linehan 2002-2004
Sherman Lewis 2000-2001
Ray Sherman 1999
Brian Billick 1994-1998
Jack Burns 1992-1993
Tom Moore 1991
Bob Schnelker 1986-1990
Jerry Burns 1968-1985
---------
Brian Flores 2023-2024
Ed Donatell 2022
George Edwards 2014-2019
Alan Williams 2012-2013
Fred Pagac 2011
Leslie Frazier 2007-2010
Mike Tomlin 2006
Ted Cottrell 2004-2005
George O'Leary 2003
Willie Shaw 2002
Emmitt Thomas 2000-2001
Foge Fazio 1996-1999
Tony Dungy 1992-1995
Monte Kiffin 1991
Floyd Peters 1986-1990
Bob Hollway 1967-1970, 1978-1983, 1985 86
Floyd Reese 1984
Neill Armstrong 1971-1977

Far from a complete list but for anybody not using martymath, the odds are stacked against Flores becoming a HC and winning a SB.

Does Flores even want to be a head coach after his experience in Miami? Of course he does. I think he'll be extra picky and take his time finding the right fit. In the meantime, he can continue building his reputation as an outstanding coordinator – the higher that goes, the better his choices. He might not automatically be gone next offseason.

Also ... KOC and KAM fit together like a hand inside a velvet glove. I'm not sure what that means but it insinuates that their partnership is healthy and even vigorous.

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 9/20/2024 6:29:10 PM >

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/20/2024 7:39:30 PM

marty

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Joined: 12/28/2007
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So Tom, why do you think the odds are stacked against Flores ?

I wasn't asking for a complete list of OCs or DCs for the Vikings.

I was talking about coordinators that did very well for the Vikings, then got head coaching positions. The 3 I listed, all went on to win Super Bowls as head coaches.

Stefanski did ok as an OC for Minnesota, but it was only one season, and the verdict is still out on him as a head coach.

Can you list OCs or DCs that did well in those positions in Minnesota, then got head coaching positions, and then failed as a head coach ?

< Message edited by marty -- 9/20/2024 7:42:22 PM >

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