RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens)

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/11/2011 7:32:52 PM

panndder

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But I should say I have been disappointed with the results the past two season, yes.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/11/2011 10:47:23 PM

Jake Carlson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: panndder

Ingram will be the 12th man, and is an insurance policy in case Mbakwe decided to leave (word is he's staying) or we have an injury or three.

THAT'S how you defend Tubby.

(Let me repeat: Hollins is one hell of a get)

Unfortunately, a team that ends the season losing 9 of 10 and is graduating two of it's best players doesn't have the luxury of recruiting insurance policies/ 12th man.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/11/2011 11:08:20 PM

panndder

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The big question mark is guards, not the front line. Tubby didn't land the next John Wall but he has two solid freshman and a juco coming in. What did you want to see?

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/11/2011 11:33:28 PM

Jake Carlson

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I agree with you about the guards. The fact that he didn't address the need to recruit a top true PG is amazing to me. My understanding is that both Hollins and Coleman are better off the ball. Welch played out here at UC Davis and is ok but he's a decent backup in the Big10.

So, to answer your question, I wanted to see two things from Tubby as far as recruiting is concerned. I wanted to see him have a clear plan for PG and I really wanted to see a little better grade of talent coming in rather than just two guys ranked in the 120-range (according to rivals). They have obvious holes in their team and I don't see him having a plan to fix them.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 12:04:37 AM

panndder

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Coleman is definitely not a PG. Hollins is a combo guard. Welch is a combo guard or PG, depending on who you ask.

If Hollins had committed to a top basketball school he'd be a top 30 recruit. He has the talent and has put up the numbers (on a good team and against good competition) but he's weighed down by Rivals and the like because he committed to "lowly" Minnesota. I understand your frustration, but next year should still be a net talent upgrade from this past year, and hopefully we don't have 2 season ending injuries again.

Post #: 1705

RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 12:39:43 AM

Jake Carlson

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Actually you have that backwards. "If Hollins had been a top 30 recruit he would have committed to a top basketball school."
Those ratings come out before most players choose schools and don't take into account their commitments at all. Rivals has Hollins rated in the 120's and ESPN has him rated in the 70's. I enjoy reading up on recruiting analysis and I can tell you there's no way Hollins was ever ranked anywhere near top 30. He's top 30 at his position maybe but not overall.

I just don't see the upgrade next year. They still don't have a proven ballhandler to manage the offense and they lost their only consistent outside shooting threat. If some shooters don't appear, Mbakwe will have a permanent, game-long double team every second he's in the game.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 9:42:19 AM

Mr. Ed

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MBrickwe could work on his 10-15 foot shot all off-season, might actually be tougher to defend next year.

Can't say much about the new guys since I've never seen them.

Hope they have more heart than this bunch had.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 10:11:31 AM

panndder

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jake Carlson

Actually you have that backwards. "If Hollins had been a top 30 recruit he would have committed to a top basketball school."
Those ratings come out before most players choose schools and don't take into account their commitments at all. Rivals has Hollins rated in the 120's and ESPN has him rated in the 70's. I enjoy reading up on recruiting analysis and I can tell you there's no way Hollins was ever ranked anywhere near top 30. He's top 30 at his position maybe but not overall.

I just don't see the upgrade next year. They still don't have a proven ballhandler to manage the offense and they lost their only consistent outside shooting threat. If some shooters don't appear, Mbakwe will have a permanent, game-long double team every second he's in the game.

The ratings aren't created once and then set in stone. They are updated many times over the two or three years a class is closely tracked. It's not a well-kept secret that the moment a top 30-100 type recruit commits to Kansas/UNC/etc. their stock goes up.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 10:36:12 AM

Jake Carlson

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Yes, the ratings are updated throughout but naturally the top programs will be targeting the top players. You feel that players drop because they are showing a strong interest in a 2nd/3rd tier program. Personally, I believe it has more to do with their performance their SR year. If their level of play is dropping, then the top programs are shifting their attention to players that are playing better.
That said, you'll see players rise/drop a few places here and there but I guarantee you won't see a player drop 40-50 spots because of which school he chooses.

Post #: 1709

RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 10:39:39 AM

djskillz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jake Carlson

Yes, the ratings are updated throughout but naturally the top programs will be targeting the top players. You feel that players drop because they are showing a strong interest in a 2nd/3rd tier program. Personally, I believe it has more to do with their performance their SR year. If their level of play is dropping, then the top programs are shifting their attention to players that are playing better.
That said, you'll see players rise/drop a few places here and there but I guarantee you won't see a player drop 40-50 spots because of which school he chooses.

Agreed.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 10:48:30 AM

Jake Carlson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

Hope they have more heart than this bunch had.

Couldn't agree more. I'd love to see Mbakwe's energy level spread throughout the team. Instead it seems like Sampson's sleep-walking apathy was more common.

I'm sure I'm in the minority here but I would much rather have Sampson (foolishly) declare for the draft, hire an agent and Iverson stick around. Yes, Iverson is a stumbling oaf out there at times with hands of stone but Sampson looks like he has no desire to even be out on the floor. Sampson has more talent but Iverson was at least always hustling and showing energy. I think Sampson's lack of desire (or perceived) brings the entire team down.

Post #: 1711

RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 10:55:19 AM

djskillz

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Agree completely, again, Jake. And said the same thing a couple of times last year. At least Iverson tries.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 11:04:20 AM

Jake Carlson

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Exactly. Sampson is just so irritating to watch. He's so terrified of contact he'd rather sit outside and put up poor three-pointers. I look at Sampson and honestly wonder if he's just playing basketball because it's expected of him not because he truly wants to play.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 11:08:13 AM

djskillz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jake Carlson

Exactly. Sampson is just so irritating to watch. He's so terrified of contact he'd rather sit outside and put up poor three-pointers. I look at Sampson and honestly wonder if he's just playing basketball because it's expected of him not because he truly wants to play.

yep. feel the same way, jake.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 11:42:53 AM

panndder

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jake Carlson

Yes, the ratings are updated throughout but naturally the top programs will be targeting the top players. You feel that players drop because they are showing a strong interest in a 2nd/3rd tier program. Personally, I believe it has more to do with their performance their SR year. If their level of play is dropping, then the top programs are shifting their attention to players that are playing better.
That said, you'll see players rise/drop a few places here and there but I guarantee you won't see a player drop 40-50 spots because of which school he chooses.

Really? Because Hollins put up about as good of numbers as ANYONE this year, against very good competition. Plus he was named Mr. Basketball over ESPN's #8 overall in the 2011 class (Adonis Thomas) and #26 overall in 2012 class (Alex Poythress). I could go on, but I sense that your mind is made up.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 11:48:49 AM

djskillz

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Numbers and "Mr. Basketball"s don't mean a whole lot in ranking players for overall talent and college success.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 11:51:15 AM

panndder

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Well if you guys will go to your graves with your thumbs in your ears I won't convince you. I fully realize that.

If you recruit guys with high ceilings, then Tubby doesn't get enough out of them (see: Williams, Rodney). If you recruit guys who can score at will and dominated the high school and AAU circuits, you complain that they weren't ranked high enough. The guy can't win.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 12:16:16 PM

djskillz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: panndder

Well if you guys will go to your graves with your thumbs in your ears I won't convince you. I fully realize that.

If you recruit guys with high ceilings, then Tubby doesn't get enough out of them (see: Williams, Rodney). If you recruit guys who can score at will and dominated the high school and AAU circuits, you complain that they weren't ranked high enough. The guy can't win.

I could care less about just Hollins. I'm just saying the overall body of work is not impressive thus far, at all. And it wasn't at Kentucky either. That makes a trend.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 3:48:34 PM

Jake Carlson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: panndder

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jake Carlson

Yes, the ratings are updated throughout but naturally the top programs will be targeting the top players. You feel that players drop because they are showing a strong interest in a 2nd/3rd tier program. Personally, I believe it has more to do with their performance their SR year. If their level of play is dropping, then the top programs are shifting their attention to players that are playing better.
That said, you'll see players rise/drop a few places here and there but I guarantee you won't see a player drop 40-50 spots because of which school he chooses.

Really? Because Hollins put up about as good of numbers as ANYONE this year, against very good competition. Plus he was named Mr. Basketball over ESPN's #8 overall in the 2011 class (Adonis Thomas) and #26 overall in 2012 class (Alex Poythress). I could go on, but I sense that your mind is made up.

If you truly believe that the scouting process/rating system is based strictly on competition level and scoring numbers alone, then I wonder why scouts even travel to see these kids play when they could just sit in a room and read a newspaper to grade each player. Making comparisons using that criteria is ridiculous.

Not sure what you're trying to convince us of, but the fact remains that these recruiters take a number of factors into play when analyzing players and I guarantee you that Mr Basketball awards and their college preference aren't even close to the top of the list of things that impact their analysis.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 3:53:06 PM

Jake Carlson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: panndder

Well if you guys will go to your graves with your thumbs in your ears I won't convince you. I fully realize that.

If you recruit guys with high ceilings, then Tubby doesn't get enough out of them (see: Williams, Rodney). If you recruit guys who can score at will and dominated the high school and AAU circuits, you complain that they weren't ranked high enough. The guy can't win.

I could care less about just Hollins. I'm just saying the overall body of work is not impressive thus far, at all. And it wasn't at Kentucky either. That makes a trend.

Exactly. The bottom line is that a coach needs to either recruit the absolute top talent like a Calipari and teach them how to play together or recruit players best suited for his system and utilize each player's strength like Stevens at Butler. Tubby doesn't seem to know which way he wants to go, IMO.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 5:32:07 PM

Phil Riewer

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We had an injured Freshman (Mo) and a Redshirt Frosh (Elliason) better than either center that played last year....that is why Iverson is transferring. Plus when you add Mo getting hurt, Nolen getting hurt, and Joseph transferring.....I just can't blame Tubby. Plus we had to get major contributions from Hollins, Ahamisi, and Armelin (3 frosh) who weren't ready.

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 4/12/2011 5:35:20 PM >

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 5:34:02 PM

Phil Riewer

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deleted

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 6:09:05 PM

djskillz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

We had an injured Freshman (Mo) and a Redshirt Frosh (Elliason) better than either center that played last year....that is why Iverson is transferring. Plus when you add Mo getting hurt, Nolen getting hurt, and Joseph transferring.....I just can't blame Tubby. Plus we had to get major contributions from Hollins, Ahamisi, and Armelin (3 frosh) who weren't ready.

Every team has injuries/other issues. Few dealt with them as poorly as Minnesota did.

_____________________________

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 6:36:18 PM

panndder

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quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

We had an injured Freshman (Mo) and a Redshirt Frosh (Elliason) better than either center that played last year....that is why Iverson is transferring. Plus when you add Mo getting hurt, Nolen getting hurt, and Joseph transferring.....I just can't blame Tubby. Plus we had to get major contributions from Hollins, Ahamisi, and Armelin (3 frosh) who weren't ready.

Every team has injuries/other issues. Few dealt with them as poorly as Minnesota did.

A lot of teams have a point guard transfer away in the off-season and then both of their point guards unavailable for the home stretch of the season and are forced to rely on a spring-signee freshman and a shooting guard to play the point? And they succeed?

Do you really believe that or are you hoping that pebble goes unturned? I said (as did many others) when Joseph transferred that if something were to happen to Nolen it would be a lost season. This was, without a doubt, a NCAA team team with Nolen and most likely one sans Joseph but with Nolen. There's a decent chance they'd be a NCAA team without either but with Cobbs.

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RE: Gopher Basketball (Mens) - 4/12/2011 7:08:06 PM

djskillz

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I do not agree. At all.

1) It's a total lack of adequate depth at that position. You can't have only 2 guys on your whole roster who can play PG. One of which is a senior and the other of which had some major issues going into the year. That in itself is a knock on Smith.

2) Nolen's presence was ONLY felt because of that total lack of depth. He's not really all that good, at all. He'll be lucky to even carve out a career in Europe.

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"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."

Post #: 1725