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RE:Mike Vick case - 8/19/2007 11:59:53 AM

Todd M

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I was closer to agreeing with you when you were wishing big bad gay Al on him. 12-18 months is enough for you? If he faces the charges from the local DA it's up to 1 year for each dog. That's on top of the Federal conspiracy charges. AND you think he deserves back in the NFL??? Hows Pete Rose doing? All he did was gamble. He should get 3-10 years and a life time ban from the NFL. Why would you let the sociopath back?

Post #: 226

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/19/2007 12:46:33 PM

Todd M

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[quote="Easy E"][quote="Todd Mallett"]I don't agree with your reasoning Pete. Vick took puppies and treated them like crap for a couple of years. Tested the dogs out to see if they could fight or not. If they couldnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t, he took the dog and tried to hang it. If the hanging failed he took the dog and drowned it. If they could fight he pitted them against other dogs and enjoyed watching them rip each other apart. Wishing for a man of this character to face some jail house justice does not put you on the same level as that man, let alone below it. It's not necessarily the healthiest way to go about things in society, but I will not feel sorry for the man one bit if he faces some stiff penalties in jail as it seems the actual penalties aren't going to be harsh enough. I swear I'll go ballistic if Tim Donaghy gets more jail time than Vick. Now if Steven was wishing for this ref to face the same jail house justice you might be on to something.[/quote] Then you probably should go ballistic every day because there are people who rape, murder and maim human beings and get away with it. IMO, THAT'S a more appropriate target for this bile and anger. Only 1 out of the 3 things you listed Vick didn't do to dogs. Everyone always wants to move away what Vick did from what is done to humans. IMO cruelty is cruelty. I love animals, and I don't condone dog fighting. I also don't condone people who purposely run over animals, kill rare game, or the slaughtering of thousands of animals for unnecessary testing, but that stuff goes on every day. I mean people still enjoy veal without thinking about what it actually takes to get it. Have you ever been to a slaughterhouse? The tens of thousands of cattle, hogs, sheep, etc that go through there every single day are terrified much more than the dogs Vick killed. People still love to see bullfights, and unless a horse is incredible, if it goes lame it gets shot. I don't condone raping/murdering/molesting/torturing humans myself. I wouldn't use one or the other as an example of where some ones priorities should be. Shit happens all over the world every day. You use the slaughterhouse analogy. How the hell am I supposed to feel enraged for every animal that goes through there? I've tried on several occasions to move away from meat because I dislike how animals are grown and slaughtered just for food but haven't been successful yet. In this case, it is what it is, accepted across society for the most part. Not a battle that I choose to fight. As for Bullfighting and the putting down of a lame race horse. Obviously I hate both. But we are not posting in the horse race/bull fighting/animal abuse thread. I don't see why I have to feel bad about following this sensationalized case. It hits close to home for me. I may not be doing anything about animal cruelty at the present time but it's where my passion is. I will have that farm someday and I will take in hard luck animal cases. None of this is me saying that Vick should get a free pass. But he's getting more bile than arsonists, murderers and rapists. We as a country have condoned the slaughter of hundred of thousands of innocent people, many of them babies, simply because we wanted to get Saddam Hussein and they unfortunately got in the way. I understand where youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re at. Open up dialogue on these other things. It's not like I don't care. I'm not going to apologize for my interest in how this case plays out though. I have no doubt there are people that actually DO hope Vick goes to prison and gets gang raped. I just think people get their priorities messed up sometimes, IMO. I'll admit it. I can live with Vick serving some jail house justice. When it crosses a certain line with me I don't have sympathy in my heart for any 1 person who kills or abuses the innocent. Animals OR people. [/quote]

Post #: 227

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/19/2007 5:44:18 PM

Steven JL

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Love the South Park reference! [quote="Todd Mallett"]I was closer to agreeing with you when you were wishing big bad gay Al on him. 12-18 months is enough for you? If he faces the charges from the local DA it's up to 1 year for each dog. That's on top of the Federal conspiracy charges. First off, I'm not talking about the state case as I haven't looked into that situation. Second, I'm assuming he pleads guilty which is going to mitigate his time. Third, I'm thinking 12-18 months served in the pen (after credits for good behavior) based on an original sentence of about 2.5 years. I'd prefer the longer range of time served (18-24 months) but all the speculation is that he's looking at the lower end of that range (I hope the experts are wrong). I would expect he will have like a 5 year probation attached that he would be forced to serve if he were to be convicted of other crimes (even non-dog crimes).

quote:

He should get 3-10 years

If he tries to take this to trial I would think and expect he will get at least a 10 year sentence but 10 years for copping a plea now is excessive since at the moment he is only up for a max of 6 I think.

quote:

AND you think he deserves back in the NFL??? and a life time ban from the NFL. Why would you let the sociopath back?

No he should never play again in the NFL. I would never let him back in. I've said before that IF the Vikes were to ever sign him in the future it would end my 35 years of following this team. I would not ever watch another Vikes game (even a Super Bowl) if he were in purple. All that said, I don't see the Commissioner taking that approach. It sets a precedent that is bound to be hypocritical at some point in the future when some other player gets a second chance after harming a human being. I think a ~3 year ban following his release from prison with commissioner approval required before his potential reinstatement seems about right. Of course if any football-centered gambling allegations came out in this case he should be gone forever. Personnally, I don't think he will ever play in the NFL again - ban or no ban. Once he pleads guilty to killing dogs he'll be so radioactive even the Raiders wouldn't take him back.

Post #: 228

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/19/2007 6:29:26 PM

Todd M

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Thanks for the clarification Steven. I'm a lot closer to where you're at than I thought after your previous post.

Post #: 229

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/19/2007 6:51:01 PM

Steven JL

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I can't wait for the South Park episode centered on Mike Vick.... I have no inside information but this is just too juicy to pass up, isn't it? :nodding:

Post #: 230

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/19/2007 8:15:29 PM

thebigo

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[quote="Littig"]I can't wait for the South Park episode centered on Mike Vick.... I have no inside information but this is just too juicy to pass up, isn't it? :nodding:[/quote] I was expecting an SNL skit, turned it on last night, they're was a bunch of wrasslin' goin on, so I guess it must of been a PacMan spoof instead... :shrug:

Post #: 231

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/19/2007 8:47:20 PM

Todd M

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[quote="Littig"]I can't wait for the South Park episode centered on Mike Vick.... I have no inside information but this is just too juicy to pass up, isn't it? :nodding:[/quote] For sure, I guarantee they have something in the works. I respect the writing on South Park. They have no fear. BTW I don't understand, is Vick waiting/mulling whether to plea or is it that the announcement of said plea won't come out right away? Seems kind of fishy to me. The 9:00 am deadline wasn't a firm one it seems.

Post #: 232

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/19/2007 10:41:37 PM

Lynn G.

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Isn't SNL on summer hiatus? If so they're missing a golden opportunity with the Vick stuff.

Post #: 233

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/20/2007 1:28:18 PM

Todd M

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Today should be the day then. I know a lot of poeple hope all this goes away after that. What I'm hoping for is that a guilty pleas does not make the local animal cruelty charges go away. I would just like a charge to stick that actually addresses that. Also PFT hinted they have some names as to who bought Vick's house a while back. SO WHO BOUGHT VICK'S HOUSE? Once of the details that has gotten lost in the shuffle during the past month or so since Mike Vick was indicted on federal conspiracy charges is the sale of his property in Surry County, Virginia, which apparently was never consummated. A local business owner said that "heads will turn" when the identity of the new owner is revealed. It has never happened. So who was it? We've picked up some information in this regard, but aren't quite ready to reveal the name. We might ultimately have to hand it over to someone from the "real" media who is in a position to confirm it. But, yeah, heads will turn if what we're hearing ends up being true. I find it wierd that they have a juicy tid bit but want to wait to reveal it. Any guesses?

Post #: 234

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/20/2007 2:12:19 PM

Steven JL

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[quote="Todd Mallett"]Today should be the day then. I know a lot of poeple hope all this goes away after that. What I'm hoping for is that a guilty pleas does not make the local animal cruelty charges go away. I would just like a charge to stick that actually addresses that. Also PFT hinted they have some names as to who bought Vick's house a while back. SO WHO BOUGHT VICK'S HOUSE? Once of the details that has gotten lost in the shuffle during the past month or so since Mike Vick was indicted on federal conspiracy charges is the sale of his property in Surry County, Virginia, which apparently was never consummated. A local business owner said that "heads will turn" when the identity of the new owner is revealed. It has never happened. So who was it? We've picked up some information in this regard, but aren't quite ready to reveal the name. We might ultimately have to hand it over to someone from the "real" media who is in a position to confirm it. But, yeah, heads will turn if what we're hearing ends up being true. I find it wierd that they have a juicy tid bit but want to wait to reveal it. Any guesses?[/quote] Don't know... Poindexter the county DA? Couldn't imagine it would be a teammate or anyone associated with the NFL so that's the only "wow" name I can think of.

Post #: 235

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/20/2007 2:30:59 PM

John Childress

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[quote="Todd Mallett"]I was closer to agreeing with you when you were wishing big bad gay Al on him. 12-18 months is enough for you? If he faces the charges from the local DA it's up to 1 year for each dog. That's on top of the Federal conspiracy charges. AND you think he deserves back in the NFL??? Hows Pete Rose doing? All he did was gamble. He should get 3-10 years and a life time ban from the NFL. Why would you let the sociopath back?[/quote] I have to agree with you on this one. 3 years in prison and a lifetime ban sounds about right. I also agree that he has deep mental problems.

Post #: 236

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/20/2007 4:37:42 PM

Jeff Jesser

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Any guesses? His brother Marcus?

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RE:Mike Vick case - 8/20/2007 6:16:44 PM

El Duderino

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[quote="Lynn Garthwaite"]Isn't SNL on summer hiatus? If so they're missing a golden opportunity with the Vick stuff.[/quote] They hit gold once with him: Oh, Really?

Post #: 238

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/20/2007 8:55:00 PM

Duane Sampson

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-- Vick to Plead Guilty -- Mon Aug 20, 2007 ESPN reports Atlanta Falcons QB Michael Vick has agreed to enter a plea of guilty to federal dogfighting charges. CNN reports the federal plea agreement recommends Vick spend 18-36 months in jail. "After consulting with his family over the weekend, Michael Vick has asked that I announce today that he has reached an agreement with federal prosecutors regarding charges pending against him," Vick attorney Billy Martin said in a statement. "Mr. Vick has agreed to enter a plea of guilty to those charges and to accept full responsibility for his actions and the mistakes he has made. Michael wishes to apologize again to everyone who has been hurt by this matter.

Post #: 239

RE:Mike Vick case - 8/20/2007 9:13:23 PM

Steven JL

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A trial would have been entertaining but ultimately fatiguing and probably not good for the nation as a whole as it would have led to more division. Now it gets interesting. 1) What exactly did he plea to? What's interesting here is the Feds don't care about public reputation. They just want justice for the underlying crimes. If Vick's advisors are smart (and that is highly questionable at this point) they would have given up admissions to crimes with longer time but less horrifying details. For example any plea that admitted to "neglect", "financing" or "conspiracy" (or even gamlbing) would still give him a lengthy sentence but be easy to justify a second crack at the NFL. Any plea that includes him personally "drowning", "torture", "instigating dog fights", etc will probably end his career in the NFL. Watch for the plea details between the Feds and Vick to focus more on the operation and less on direct admissions of sadism to the dogs. 2) What will Sheriff Goodell do? Interestingly, Goodell is free now to conduct his own investigation under his own rules. He can demand Vick come in and explain himself (no 5th Amendment rights here!) If Goodell's team is sharp (and every indication so far is that they are) they will have ample facts at hand and then demand a full accounting by Vick. Should he lie or not be forthcoming Goodell can suspend him indefinitely. Of course if Vick admits to the animal sadism his career will be over. If he lies about it to Goodell, his career will probably be over. Rock, hard place, let me introduce you to one Mike Vick. My guess remains that he will serve about 18 months of a 2.5 year sentence with a lifetime ban (be it implicit or simply due to lack of interest) will follow. Ironically this is probably a great break for the Falcons who signed him to an obscenely large contract and now have an easy way out to recoup a bunch of misspent cash.

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RE:Mike Vick case - 8/20/2007 9:15:13 PM

Jeff Jesser

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I've long suspected this was his only option. The only thing I wonder is if he will actual plead guilty to the dog charges or the gambling financing aspect of it. If he claims ignorance on the killing part he may try to get back in the league at some point. If he says "yeah, I killed dogs" no owner will touch him IMO. Even after his jail time he will always walk with that stigma.

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RE:Mike Vick case - 8/20/2007 9:24:30 PM

Jeff Jesser

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Edit, Steve L already summed up my position.

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RE:Mike Vick case - 8/20/2007 9:27:41 PM

Steven JL

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But you did it nicely in a fraction of the words :oops:

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RE:Mike Vick case - 8/20/2007 9:30:57 PM

Jeff Jesser

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[quote="Littig"]But you did it nicely in a fraction of the words :oops:[/quote] That's because if I say too much I always end up looking stupid. :cool:

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RE:Mike Vick case - 8/20/2007 11:39:21 PM

Jim Frenette

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[quote="Duane Sampson"]-- Vick to Plead Guilty -- Mon Aug 20, 2007 ESPN reports Atlanta Falcons QB Michael Vick has agreed to enter a plea of guilty to federal dogfighting charges. CNN reports the federal plea agreement recommends Vick spend 18-36 months in jail. "After consulting with his family over the weekend, Michael Vick has asked that I announce today that he has reached an agreement with federal prosecutors regarding charges pending against him," Vick attorney Billy Martin said in a statement. "Mr. Vick has agreed to enter a plea of guilty to those charges and to accept full responsibility for his actions and the mistakes he has made. Michael wishes to apologize again to everyone who has been hurt by this matter. [/quote] ESPN stayed on the air covering this story for over 2 hours close to 3. How many times can you ask the same questions? How many times can they loop the same July 26 video. They gained no more info in the second hour as they did in the first half hour. I'm betting the 5 o'clock Sports Center opens with Breaking News and use 45 minutes of the show as if no one has heard it yet.

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RE:Mike Vick case - 8/21/2007 2:09:39 AM

Todd M

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I'm not very happy right now. 10-12 months it looks like. What is that with good behavior? The only hope I have for real justice rides with Poindexter. I've always been down on that guy. Now I have to rely on him coming through with the animal cruelty charges. Steven's probably right though, he probably bought Vicks house off him when this all started. Damn. I watched the video on NFL.com and I have to tell you that I'm sick and tired of them showing the same damn highlights of Vick on the football field. Enough all ready. I don't know what I'll do if he is out of jail before next season starts and receives a 1-2 year suspension and then is allowed back in the NFL. If that happens I take it as a collective FU from the NFL. As it stands that money that the league/and or Falcons are trying to recover should be split up and donated to charities. All I want is for Vick to be pegged w/o question as an animal killer. Pleading guilty for these conspiracy charges alone and spending a year or less in jail and potentially getting back into the NFL doesn't work for me. In real life everyone should be winding down from this case with the satisfaction that Vick is going to pay for his crimes. He did say that he was going to "accept full responsibility for his actions and the mistakes he has made" well that just seems like another lie to me. He is skirting taking full responsibility unless he faces the animal abuse charges. I really hope I'm wrong and that he will in fact those charges and that the NFL will never let him back in. If he faces no other charges people will start to rally more and more for Mike Vick saying that he just made a mistake and that forgiveness is what God would want. I myself would get over this if in fact there was a full confession and full retribution paid for these crimes. I just have this bad feeling that this will be the end of it for Vick with 3-6 months jail time served for what he did. I'd also like to know what anyone is getting in return for Vicks plea. Will we see Vick testifying or giving sworn affidavits for people higher up in this?

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RE:Mike Vick case - 8/21/2007 3:27:24 AM

Steven JL

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Todd, Well said. I feel much the same way. I'm sure he and his attorneys have tried their best and will continue to try to avoid any specific admissions of sadistic animal cruelty. Admitting to bad friends, and bad judgment, and funding a lifestyle for your friends is one thing - admitting to killing dogs with your bare hands and having full knowledge of this operation for 5 years is quite another. The Feds did their job and got a guilty plea. They aren't interested in ending his career just putting him in jail for a "just" amount of time. (And don't believe all the media proclamations about 10-12 months. Remember when the indictment came out on the house and the media were all exonerating Vick? Anyone with a brain (well OK I saw it coming but saw very few main stream media types see it) could see that an indictment on the house was simply a procedural step until the owner of the house would be indicted. All along th media have erred on the low side for what Vick will face. I think he will get at least 18 months and probably 2+ years from the judge (before good behavior credits). As far as him getting back in the NFL our hope for justice now lies with Goodell. As I stated above Goodell has a great deal of power to extract more detailed confessions from Vick. He WILL need to answer specifically (even if his federal plea sidesteps the issue) to the sworn testimony that he himself killed dogs. If that comes out as true - forget it - he will need to be a model poster boy for at least 4 years before he gets another chance with an NFL team. Finally it will come down to owners and fans. I for one would never stand for him on my Vikes. Letters to the owner, letters to the paper, cancelling season tickets held since Day 1 of Viking history would all be on the table. And I'm betting I'm not alone. Unlike many crimes for which we are willing to forgive people or players once they have "served their debt", this was NOT a momentary lapse in judgment. Driving drunk, watching your friends stab someone and then not knowing what to say, giving a phone number to a friend for a drug deal, getting drunk and attacking a cop, even killing another human being while driving drunk are all bad crimes. But they are moments in time, and who of us hasn't made a stupid snap decision at one time or another? These things can often be forgiven because we can see our own humanity in a crime of momentary stupidity (but for the grace of God there go I... kind of thing). Vick's 5 year conspiracy to plan, fund, operate, and grow a dog fighting operation which by definition treats dogs sadistically and horrifically goes deeper than a momentary decision. It speaks to a lack of character and humanity that we cannot relate to (or do not want to relate to). There is no "but for the grace of God" relief in sight for him on this issue. People won't forget, PETA (as stupid as they are) won't forget, and any owner who ever tries to bring him back better be bringing back a "born again man" with a several year track record of being squeeky clean and working his ass off for redemption. If Vick isn't willing to humble himself to an extent he hasn't ever had to even comprehend in his priveleged life, he will never gain the opportunity to play again.

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RE:Mike Vick case - 8/21/2007 3:50:10 AM

Todd M

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Unlike many crimes for which we are willing to forgive people or players once they have "served their debt", this was NOT a momentary lapse in judgment. Driving drunk, watching your friends stab someone and then not knowing what to say, giving a phone number to a friend for a drug deal, getting drunk and attacking a cop, even killing another human being while driving drunk are all bad crimes. But they are moments in time, and who of us hasn't made a stupid snap decision at one time or another? These things can often be forgiven because we can see our own humanity in a crime of momentary stupidity (but for the grace of God there go I... kind of thing). Vick's 5 year conspiracy to plan, fund, operate, and grow a dog fighting operation which by definition treats dogs sadistically and horrifically goes deeper than a momentary decision. It speaks to a lack of character and humanity that we cannot relate to (or do not want to relate to). There is no "but for the grace of God" relief in sight for him on this issue. People won't forget, PETA (as stupid as they are) won't forget, and any owner who ever tries to bring him back better be bringing back a "born again man" with a several year track record of being squeeky clean and working his ass off for redemption. If Vick isn't willing to humble himself to an extent he hasn't ever had to even comprehend in his priveleged life, he will never gain the opportunity to play again. That was very well said. I appreciate, and feel better, reading commentary like that. Have you ever read through the FanHouse comments? Comments from both sides make me depressed.

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RE:Mike Vick case - 8/21/2007 3:58:32 AM

Easy E

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Words cannot adequately express the pure rage I feel when I hear that someone getting stone drunk, getting in a car and killing someone is less offensive and more understandable that killing 6 dogs. Or 100 million dogs. Or every single dog, spider, rat, bee and buffalo on the planet.

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RE:Mike Vick case - 8/21/2007 4:19:21 AM

John Childress

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[quote="Easy E"]Words cannot adequately express the pure rage I feel when I hear that someone getting stone drunk, getting in a car and killing someone is less offensive and more understandable that killing 6 dogs. Or 100 million dogs. Or every single dog, spider, rat, bee and buffalo on the planet.[/quote] AGREE 100% I find it amazing that someone would consider Vick's crime less offensive than Leonard Little killing a mother and then continuing to drive drunk years later! Some people have their priorities screwed up for sure.

Post #: 250