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RE: The Packers - 12/9/2009 8:00:29 AM   
Trekgeekscott


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead Craig

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynn G.

And yet you can't dispute it either.

Dispute what? "A rape at Lambeau Part II"? Please. The Pack were penalized plenty that game. That's gotta be the lamest comment I've seen you make Lynn.

What's your proof? Marty? If so, I'm not even gonna indulge that sillyness.



That doesn't change the fact that they should have gotten flagged plenty MORE.

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RE: The Packers - 12/9/2009 9:06:32 AM   
Lynn G.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead Craig

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynn G.

And yet you can't dispute it either.

Dispute what? "A rape at Lambeau Part II"? Please. The Pack were penalized plenty that game. That's gotta be the lamest comment I've seen you make Lynn.

What's your proof? Marty? If so, I'm not even gonna indulge that sillyness.


I paraphrased a quote from one of the guys on the NFL Network (I don't know any of their names).

What you can't dispute is the observation that Woodson (and previously Harris) have been mauling receivers forever and only rarely get flagged for it.

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RE: The Packers - 12/9/2009 9:27:03 AM   
Don T in CO


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Childress

Usually - blaming losses on the refs shows a failure to accept responsibility for getting beat.


Usually, yes.  In the case of Packer DBs not getting their due PI calls, no (IMO).
Post #: 1828
RE: The Packers - 12/9/2009 2:31:18 PM   
marty


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Craig
 
IF a game was being 'swayed' towards a certain outcome, and you were an involved official, would you
make sure you called NO penalties on the Packers, or might you call a few after the Pack got a decent lead so your 'sway' isn't discovered ? It's also possible that some penalties are so bad you almost HAVE to call them so you don't draw attention to yourself.  And it's also likely that the 'sway' would only involve 1 or 2 officials, so the others might be making calls the other way.

So when you have a play like the Grant fumble where an official NOT involved in the 'sway' (otherwise he would have been looking for the knee to be down and quickly whistled the play dead if it looked like a fumble might occur), ruled a fumble, then an official that is involved in the 'sway' sees an opening on the replay where he can rule the knee down with one freeze frame, it's NOT clear evidence, but enough to get the ruling HE wants.

It's hard to watch a game where one team is being helped on offense by big PI calls while at the same time their defense is committing PI to the same extent or worse but it is continuously NOT being called (not until 3 minutes left in the 3rd quarter), and think that you are watching an honestly called game.
 
And that is NOT even taking into account the other numerous things I mentioned in previous posts that also showed a one way bias.  There was a key play early in the game where Clifton moved early, but they called a Raven for making him move.  It's quite possible the Raven, as he argued, did NOTHING to make Clifton move, but a ref involved in the 'sway' saw an opening where he could call it that way on a key play. 

So later in the game when Clifton moved early, a call made on Clifton for false start would APPEAR to even things out, right ?  EXCEPT the call earlier was at a more crucial juncture, and enabled the Packers to get ahead.  So the Packers got the benefit of playing with a lead they might not have gotten had the 1st penalty been called against Clifton.  Later, it was safer to make the call because the Pack had built up a nice lead, so even if the Ravens got the ball back, the Pack were still playing with a nice lead and were getting the benefit of committing PI on defense without it getting called. 

It may have APPEARED that the officiating was nuetral because the numbers evened out, but it was NOT even at all.  I only gave this game a '1' (my scale of 0 to 5) for possible 'sway', but it was REALLY close to being a '2'.  We would have needed the Ravens to put up a bigger fight in the 4th quarter to see if the refs would have went back to letting Packer dbs get away with PI, making it unlikely the Ravens could benefit from a turnover, missing other obvious penalties, and at the same making biased calls against the Ravens. 

One play that almost had me push it up to a '2', was a 4th quarter play that was whistled dead where Johnny Jolly was allowed a REALLY good hit on Flacco, after quite a bit of time had elapsed after the whistle.  HOW could the refs have missed that ?  I gave the "Rape at Lambau a '2' ", but only gave this game a '1', so IMHO Lynn, it wasn't quite enough to give it "Rape at Lambau II", but it was close.

< Message edited by marty -- 12/9/2009 2:46:44 PM >
Post #: 1829
RE: The Packers - 12/9/2009 2:41:56 PM   
marty


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JC

I think there is a pretty good chance the Packers would have won if the game had been called fairly, but we'll never know.  I think it's also quite possible that had the Grant fumble been ruled a fumble, and the Packer dbs weren't allowed ANY PI before the ball was there, that the Ravens would have won in a blowout.  The dynamics of a game can change on ONE play, and when you have the refs being biased and missing many obvious things, you can get quite a different outcome.

It's just like the Steeler/Seahawk SB, the Steelers probably would have still won if Seattle had been given fair officiating, but we'll never know. 

< Message edited by marty -- 12/9/2009 2:43:13 PM >
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RE: The Packers - 12/9/2009 4:22:38 PM   
John Childress


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If the Vikings don't win the Super Bowl, it won't be because of the refs.

It will be because the all pro DL couldn't overcome the poor secondary and LBs (coverage).

It will be because the Favre fade is real and not imagined.

Or it will be because a team like the Saints, Chargers, or Colts were just better than us.

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RE: The Packers - 12/9/2009 4:27:10 PM   
Jeff Jesser


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I think it'll be because, simply put, our pass D sucks terribly.  
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RE: The Packers - 12/9/2009 4:30:06 PM   
Lynn G.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Childress

If the Vikings don't win the Super Bowl, it won't be because of the refs.

It will be because the all pro DL couldn't overcome the poor secondary and LBs (coverage).

It will be because the Favre fade is real and not imagined.

Or it will be because a team like the Saints, Chargers, or Colts were just better than us.


That sounds very nice - but there is almost no doubt that Seattle lost their SB against the Steelers because of the refs. They played well enough to win. I don't know anyone (except Steelers fans) who don't agree that that Superbowl was stolen from Seattle.

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RE: The Packers - 12/9/2009 5:24:33 PM   
John Childress


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Or maybe Seattle lost because they did not mount one long TD drive all day against that defense?

The one TD they scored was on a 20 yard drive.

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Post #: 1834
RE: The Packers - 12/9/2009 9:50:30 PM   
marty


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Or maybe it's quite easy to find failings on a team that was shafted all game with officials that may have been 'swaying' the game ?
Post #: 1835
RE: The Packers - 12/9/2009 10:37:40 PM   
Lynn G.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Childress

Or maybe Seattle lost because they did not mount one long TD drive all day against that defense?

The one TD they scored was on a 20 yard drive.


Nope, that wasn't it.

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Post #: 1836
RE: The Packers - 12/10/2009 7:37:27 AM   
Trekgeekscott


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Childress

Or maybe Seattle lost because they did not mount one long TD drive all day against that defense?

The one TD they scored was on a 20 yard drive.


And maybe they didn't mount any drives because the refs were clearly favoring the other team. 

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Post #: 1837
RE: The Packers - 12/10/2009 8:09:38 AM   
Guest
What was the motivation for this crime?  Who were the key players.  Was it just one ref looking for an extra buck and he decided to align himself with some "friends of friends"?  Were all the refs involved?  Was it a decision made by higher-ups in the league itself?  If so, why?

Isn't it entirely more likely that officiating a professional sport is not as easy as it looks?  And maybe sometimes the refs just miss calls and sometimes even make incorrect calls. 

Amazing that people who don't believe in any type of political conspiracy, are quick to get behind this fairy tale, especially when their favorite team is getting screwed by the officials. 

Again, what's the motivation?  Is the league sacrificing (committing felonies) its own product by trying to influence the outcome of certain games in order to create certain (more) marketable match-ups?  If that's the case, why (according to almost every poster in here) are the Vikings always getting screwed by the officials?  Does the league secretly hate Brett Favre? 
  Post #: 1838
RE: The Packers - 12/10/2009 8:14:59 AM   
Lynn G.


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Pete,

I don't think it's anything as organized as that. I think that refs, being human, have subconscious favorites and it can manifest itself in the way they call a game. I don't think there is any pre-game meeting in which they agree on a sway - but I just think they see things differently for one team versus another. I know that, as fans, we tend to overlook our own team's transgressions and want a call on every little thing that the other team does.

Human nature.

As to this topic - there is no way you can watch that Seattle/Steelers Superbowl and conclude that they called the game the same for the Steelers as they did for the Seahawks.

And as for the Lambeau Rape - it was validated by the refs themselves because they admitted after that game that they made 8 bad calls in the fourth quarter. Every one of those bad calls went against the Vikings and it was the fourth quarter when the Packers came back from behind and won. When the refs admit they blew 8 calls - that is NOT a game that was called fairly.

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Post #: 1839
RE: The Packers - 12/10/2009 10:01:05 AM   
Don T in CO


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An article from Today's online Sporting News-

Post #: 1840
RE: The Packers - 12/10/2009 6:21:29 PM   
Cheesehead Craig


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I find it highly amusing that there is such outcry against the Packers and the "preferred" officiating some believe they get when they've been the most penalized team in the NFL this season.

But by all means, don't let that fact get in your way.
Post #: 1841
RE: The Packers - 12/10/2009 7:58:46 PM   
Lynn G.


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Part of the ire, Craig, is the history. It's not just this year. They have been getting away with crap for so many years it's cumulative.

And interestingly, Favre used to get the benefit of the most ridiculous roughing the passer calls in the history of the game. People would blow on his shoulder and get a flag. I was hoping to finally get some of those calls now that he's ours, but unfortunately they must have changed the rules now that he's not a Packer.

But don't worry about us. The Packer message boards are filled with their own complaints about bad ref calls - lest you think we're the only ones that do it.

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Post #: 1842
RE: The Packers - 12/10/2009 8:52:45 PM   
marty


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As I stated earlier Craig, I gave the 1st meeting with Packers at Vikes a 'sway' of a (out of 5) in favor of the VIKINGS.  The 2nd meeting the refs preferred the Pack, but the Vikes still found a way to win, but it did NOT register on my 'sway' scale, it was mostly well officiated.  The Packer/Raven game I gave a 1, nearly a 2, highly in favor of the Pack.    

The Pack has been penailzed heavily because their OL has been so poor, and their 2ndary cheats, committing PI nearly every play.  They play very aggressively on defense, the refs didn't even notice Johnny Jolly in the 4th quarter whacking Flacco pretty good WELL after the whistle was blown.  He is a dirty player that recieved a 15 yard penalty for slamming his head into Chester Taylor after he had already hit Taylor with his head BEFORE the play was whistled dead.  It was the SECOND hit that drew the flag, he should have been ejected from the game. 

PETE

When a murder takes place, and you can't find the motivation, it doesn't mean the murder didn't take place.  It COULD have been the higher ups that want parity and more things to come down to the last few weeks (more revenue), or it could have been A LOT more was bet on the Ravens so one ref was paid off, or it could have been just a biased ref that preferred the Pack.  Just because I can't provide the answer, doesn't mean the obvious bias was just by CHANCE.

The problem with the argument of how difficult it is to officiate, is that it was NOT too difficult in the for the refs to throw 4 flags on the Ravens' 2ndary, while you had at least 4 just as eggregious PIs on the Pack during the same period that were NOT called.  They didn't seem to NOTICE the Pack committing PI until the Pack had a nice lead and just 3 minutes were left to play in the 3rd quarter.

It has NOTHING to do with favorite teams.  I think the refs favored the Vikes in the ast GB/Minnesota game, registered a 1 on my 'sway' ascale, just like GB/Baltimore and Minnesota/Arizona also registered the same in favor of GB and Arizona this last week.  There was another game where I thought the refs favored the Vikes heavily, and the Pittsburgh game seemed like the refs favored the Steelers at the end.  

There have been MANY games in the Vikings' past where I thought the game was well officiated and the Vikes were outplayed and lost.  Maybe it just stands out this year because the Vikes have lost so few games,  and in their only 2 losses they seemed to have been hosed at the tail end of the Pittsburgh game, but seemed to be getting biased officiating against them from the START of the Arizona game.  I don't know HOW the refs could have missed on a crucial 3rd down early on, Rice was not only interefered with well before the ball was there, the defender ALSO grabbed his facemask BEFORE the ball was there.  Missing something like that shows clear bias, and when you see something like that early on, your guess on who is going to win the game (or cover the spread) is likely to be on the mark.

I don't think it's a FELONY for a ref to show clear bias and 'sway' a game.  It has NOTHING to do with the league being against Brett Favre, he's been favored much of his career, and has recieved some favoritism THIS year.  I think if they ARE messing with games, it's done for and against the same teams, it's more likely it has something to do with a spread or more parity.  Besides that, don't you think they would get caught if they kept favoring or going against the SAME teams ?  

< Message edited by marty -- 12/11/2009 8:55:16 AM >
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RE: The Packers - 12/10/2009 9:17:12 PM   
marty


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Craig

While I think it's obvious the Packers were the preferred team in the last game, there have been SEVERAL games this year where I think the Packers were shafted.  Initially I thought maybe it was because Aaron Rodgers is so UN-likeable, but there were a couple of cases where I think it could have had something to do with the spread, or some other reason.

I remember offhand the Bengals getting quite a bit of favoritsm, that REALLY surprised me as the game was at Lambau.  Maybe that early in the year there was heavy betting on the Pack, people weren't taking the Bengals seriously, and the Bengals recieved a 'sway' ?  I also thought the refs were helping Detroit quite a bit early on in the Thanksgiving game.  But maybe the ref involved in the 'sway' backed off because he realized he could only help Detroit SO MUCH before it might start looking suspicious ?  As I stated earlier, I thought the refs strongly favored the VIKES in the 1st Packer/Vikes game.  I think GB had 8 penalties to the Vikes ZERO in the 1st half of that game. 

And I'm pretty sure there was ANOTHER game where it felt to me the refs were AGAINST the Pack.  So I don't think the Pack have a permanent preferred status, it's just certain games.  Maybe it's just evening out ?  It's quite possible there is NOTHING to my 'sway' theories, but certain games just smell like something is up.  It would be EASIER to understand a ref that was being picky calling ticky tack penalties, but when I'm watching games where the officiating seems bias and they keep MISSING some eggregious penalties for ONLY one team, you have to wonder if something is going on. 

I am NOT arguing for flags on EVERY play, but if there is a 3rd down, like early in the Viking/Card game, and the WR is mugged like Rice was, where not only PI was committed but also a facemask, that MUST be called and should NOT be missed (unless the refs are 'swaying' the game).  IF something that crucial can be missed, perhaps the teams should have a NON-call challenge they can throw out, have a review and get the obvious penalty called.  And not only that, I think to prevent the 'sway', IF that teams wins the challenge, they can KEEP using that challenge flag throughout the game, until they use it and a penalty is NOT agreed upon. 

OR, maybe they should just get 3 NON-call flags for obvious penalties that SHOULD have been called and are liklely to alter the game.  The Vikes could have used it on the Rice play and gained TWO pena1lties, and then used it on the play where Favre was thrown well after the whistle (then he might NOT have thrown the pick that he said he threw in anger on the play right after the play where he was thrown after the whistle).   

< Message edited by marty -- 12/11/2009 2:08:30 PM >
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RE: The Packers - 12/11/2009 10:39:08 AM   
Don T in CO


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Q: How effective would the packer DBs be if they had to wear mittens instead of gloves? 
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RE: The Packers - 12/13/2009 8:41:23 PM   
Cheesehead Craig


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Today's win makes it 5 in a row to get us to 9-4!

Defense played very good on a day the offense had some issues finishing drives. Charles Woodson continues his leading candidacy for Def POTY with another pick, a couple of PDs and solid run support.

The Packers running attack did a good job and Grant's big TD run showed he still has some speed.

Three games to go and the Pack are in the drivers seat for a WC spot.
Post #: 1846
RE: The Packers - 12/13/2009 8:47:04 PM   
Tim Cady

 

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Defense played very good on a day the offense had some issues finishing drives. Charles Woodson continues his leading candidacy for Def POTY with another pick, a couple of PDs and solid run support.


You were right, I was wrong, you are good looking, I am not that attractive......

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Post #: 1847
RE: The Packers - 12/16/2009 6:57:03 AM   
TheGonz


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Felony possession charges re-filed against Green Bay defensive tackle and resident drug mule Johnny Jolly.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091215/PKR01/91215157/1978/Packers-Jolly-indicted-again-on-drug-charges-in-Houston

Good thing for Jolly that this deals with an illegal narcotic and not a legal weight-loss supplement that didn't list all its ingredients on the label and later got shut down by the FDA.  Because if it was the latter, man, I bet Packer fans would be PISSED.

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RE: The Packers - 12/16/2009 8:15:30 AM   
Lynn G.


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When the original charges were dropped I couldn't believe it. Now, reading the article, I see what happened.

I thought the initial report was that he also had a bunch of prescription drugs (i.e. pills) in his possession at the time, or am I thinking of some other NFL player?

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RE: The Packers - 12/16/2009 6:47:57 PM   
Cheesehead Craig


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I really don't see anything coming from these charges. Mountain out of a tiny molehill.
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