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RE: College Football (Future Vikings!)

 
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RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/9/2014 5:53:46 PM   
Bill Jandro

 

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You can blame them for going with Ponder

But the real malfunction here is that they formulated zero backup plan

Sink or swim with Ponder killed the coach

Spielman should have also been thrown out with the bath water as well. He is the supposed architech of this qb mess

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RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/9/2014 6:29:36 PM   
McMurfy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

My feeling is SEA got lucky with Wilson. In no way shape or form could they have ever even dreamed he would be this good.



Yep, and it gets annoying here in the NW.
Everyone talks about what a great pick it was, and it is considering it was a third rounder.
But if they were as smart about him as people say they were, he would have gone earlier to them.



its not luck...they kept looking


they signed Flynn to big dollars.....LOL
they signed Jackson to decent dollars....LOL
they traded 2nd rounder? for Charlie Fricken Whitehurst....LOL


but they kept trying, they swallowed their egos with the world laughing at them, and now they are getting the last laugh

if the Vikings had swallowed their pride and chased down Manning we would have been in better shape, but they had to go with Ponder....because of ego



That's a great point that was brought up earlier.

I call it attacking the deficiency as opposed to reacting to the deficiency.

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RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/9/2014 7:44:26 PM   
69in09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

quote:

ORIGINAL: McMurfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

My feeling is SEA got lucky with Wilson. In no way shape or form could they have ever even dreamed he would be this good.



Yep, and it gets annoying here in the NW.
Everyone talks about what a great pick it was, and it is considering it was a third rounder.
But if they were as smart about him as people say they were, he would have gone earlier to them.



its not luck...they kept looking


they signed Flynn to big dollars.....LOL
they signed Jackson to decent dollars....LOL
they traded 2nd rounder? for Charlie Fricken Whitehurst....LOL


but they kept trying, they swallowed their egos with the world laughing at them, and now they are getting the last laugh

if the Vikings had swallowed their pride and chased down Manning we would have been in better shape, but they had to go with Ponder....because of ego


I think 2nd guessing the FO for not going after Manning is disingenuous. Realistically remember the landscape at the time;
1) Manning was a risk. He was coming off major neck surgery and hadn't played in a year.
2) Our team and city were just relieving ourselves of the Favre saga both emotionally and financially- everyone wanted a young QB.
3) Payton wanted nothing to do with us or would have just used us for leverage. We were coming off a 3-13 season and not a candidate for a guy with a short clock.
4) Ponder had limited playing time his rookie year, we didn't yet know his full sucking power.

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RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/9/2014 7:55:22 PM   
Nordic Don


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My only hope through this madness of finding a new head coach and a quarterback of the future is that the brass of the Vikings (whomever that may be) do their homework and watch countless hours of film on the players coming out. The tapes do not lie and the numbers do not lie and don't try to out-think the situation (like Musgrave did on more than many occassion with the offense). KISS-keep it simple stupid!
Post #: 1229
RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/9/2014 8:39:59 PM   
marty


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Dug up a few old comments:

Perfect scenario is if JT2 is right about Manziel being a late 1st/2nd rounder.

JT, do you still think Manziel will be late 1st or 2nd rounder ?

Here's another version of the events. A version called reality. YOU said, somewhere around midseason, that Manziel (who you haven't watched play very much) would be the first pick in the draft. I offered you fairly good odds on that bet. Ian offered even better.
I know you prefer pretend bets on pretend, fixed games, but you had the chance to put your money where your mouth is, and you didn't even have the courtesy to respond.

If your memory fails you, I will dig up the old posts.
- JT

Apparently, YOUR memory fails you JT as I DID respond, and am still waiting for an answer.

I'll give you 10 to 1 that Manziel doesn't go in the top 2 of next years draft. - JT

I'll give 50 to 1. - Ian

My response to the guys with giant egos was:

50 to 1 on Manziel going in the top 2 of next years' draft ? What will you give if he goes in the top 10 ?

So what will you guys with giant egos give me if Manziel goes in the top 10 ? Still waiting .....


Here's what Nick Saban said about Manziel:

“I think when somebody’s as instinctive as [Manziel] is, and as fast as he is, and as athletic as he is, and he’s developing into a pretty good passer—I mean last year he really developed as a passer—I do think he has an NFL future.” - Nick Saban

We had this from Gonz:

Manziel won't even be one of the first two quarterbacks taken.

Not ahead of Bridgewater or Tajh Boyd. . .to say nothing of guys like David Fales, Aaron Murray, and Brett Hundley - Gonz


Gonz, do you still think Boyd will get drafted ahead of Manziel ?

I could see Bridgewater, and maybe Bortles, but I think Manziel is likely to go ahead of Bortles. Houston might even take Manziel at #1. IF the Vikes want him, they'll have to hope that guys like JT get 7 teams scared enough, or the Vikes will have to move up to about #3 to get him.

< Message edited by marty -- 1/9/2014 8:44:14 PM >
Post #: 1230
RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/9/2014 8:53:16 PM   
Karl Juhnke


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

You can blame them for going with Ponder

But the real malfunction here is that they formulated zero backup plan

Sink or swim with Ponder killed the coach

Spielman should have also been thrown out with the bath water as well. He is the supposed architech of this qb mess


The backup plan was Cassel. If not long term then certainly for this season. Only problem was not going to plan B by week 3.

Cassel is not the future but he's a solid, no frills NFL QB which is more than Ponder will ever be.

< Message edited by Karl Juhnke -- 1/9/2014 8:54:24 PM >
Post #: 1231
RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/9/2014 8:58:41 PM   
Ian Joseph


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I stand by my top 2 statement.

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RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/9/2014 9:43:59 PM   
marty


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All that ego, but no balls to bet on Manziel not going in the top 10.

I'd actually be tempted to take 50-1 odds on Manziel going in the top 2, as I think there is a chance Houston takes him. I don't think someone will trade up to #2 just because that would similar to RGIII, and his size, like RGIII's is a concern.

I think Manziel most likely will go #4 to Cleveland.
Post #: 1233
RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/9/2014 9:53:27 PM   
Ricky J


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Who are you going to find to bet he goes 11+ in the draft.

I'd love to bet you on anything - win or lose - just to find out if you're for real or not.
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RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/9/2014 9:56:50 PM   
marty


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I'm actually just imaginary.

Someone stated Manziel would go late 1st or 2nd round, maybe they want to back that up by saying he won't go top 10.
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RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/9/2014 9:59:57 PM   
Prescott


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

All that ego, but no balls to bet on Manziel not going in the top 10.

I'd actually be tempted to take 50-1 odds on Manziel going in the top 2, as I think there is a chance Houston takes him. I don't think someone will trade up to #2 just because that would similar to RGIII, and his size, like RGIII's is a concern.

I think Manziel most likely will go #4 to Cleveland.


Tempted, but not quite the balls to pull the trigger?

Your answer was a non answer, it was a waffle and a dodge. You kept talking about Manziel going top 2, they called you on it and gave you massive odds.... and you passed. Tried to hedge, waffled, etc.

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RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/9/2014 10:09:16 PM   
marty


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When it gets closer to draft day, I'm might take the 50-1 odds.

So courageous of them to state Manziel was likely a late 1st rounder, even a 2nd rounder, and willing to give 50-1 odds he won't go in the top 2. I'm wondering if the offer of 50-1 still stands. I never passed on the offer, I wouldn't want to make a bet like that until it was closer to draft day.

I'm still wondering if any of the boys with giant egos are willing to bet that Manziel won't go in the top 10. I think he'll be drafted in the top 10, and COULD end up being the 1st pick in the draft. I said Manziel could go 1st, not that he WOULD go 1st. And I still believe that. There will be plenty of Houston fans pushing for them to take him.
Post #: 1237
RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/9/2014 10:13:42 PM   
drviking


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lots of things can happen between now and draft, so dealing with the absolutes is very dangerous...



the only neck tattoo absolute lock is that ponder sucks

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RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/9/2014 10:44:35 PM   
Prescott


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People who think Manziel is a late 1st round/early 2nd round talent also obviously think a team might draft him top 10. Why would they lack balls for thinking that?

As more and more QBs drop out, it's more and more likely Manziel is a top 10 pick.
quote:


I said Manziel could go 1st, not that he WOULD go 1st. And I still believe that


Just not enough to take anyone up on the bet, even with amazing odds. So maybe stop talking about other people and their balls, when you won't follow through on your own statements.

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If I had a perfect day
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Open up the fridge and have a tall boy
Yeah
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RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/9/2014 11:39:55 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

When it gets closer to draft day, I'm might take the 50-1 odds.


Why not wait until after the draft to decide if you'll take the bet?
Post #: 1240
RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/10/2014 12:00:37 AM   
69in09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

lots of things can happen between now and draft, so dealing with the absolutes is very dangerous...



the only neck tattoo absolute lock is that ponder sucks



Genius Post!!!!!

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RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/10/2014 12:57:20 AM   
Ian Joseph


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

All that ego, but no balls to bet on Manziel not going in the top 10.

I'd actually be tempted to take 50-1 odds on Manziel going in the top 2, as I think there is a chance Houston takes him. I don't think someone will trade up to #2 just because that would similar to RGIII, and his size, like RGIII's is a concern.

I think Manziel most likely will go #4 to Cleveland.


The statement was never about him going top ten. You said top two; we gave you odds for top two.

How do you then try to change the discussion and wager for a larger window? Only one not showing any balls is you.

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Post #: 1242
RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/10/2014 1:04:15 AM   
Ian Joseph


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

When it gets closer to draft day, I'm might take the 50-1 odds.

So courageous of them to state Manziel was likely a late 1st rounder, even a 2nd rounder, and willing to give 50-1 odds he won't go in the top 2. I'm wondering if the offer of 50-1 still stands. I never passed on the offer, I wouldn't want to make a bet like that until it was closer to draft day.

I'm still wondering if any of the boys with giant egos are willing to bet that Manziel won't go in the top 10. I think he'll be drafted in the top 10, and COULD end up being the 1st pick in the draft. I said Manziel could go 1st, not that he WOULD go 1st. And I still believe that. There will be plenty of Houston fans pushing for them to take him.


Ain't nobody giving you 50-1 close to the draft. The whole point of the nuts hang odds is to make a bet far in advance on what you think will happen and then let it unfold. You don't want to take a bet like that until you're sure it's a winner.

That's precisely why it won't be available to you. If you want 50-1 odds on top two, you need to take them tomorrow. If not, move on from it.

EDIT: I've changed my mind. I'm no longer interested in the bet. I have zero confidence you would agree to any wager without trying to change the terms after the fact to suit your personal contingencies. Maybe Pete will still play ball with you.

< Message edited by Ian Joseph -- 1/10/2014 1:38:32 AM >


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RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/10/2014 6:28:26 PM   
Bill Jandro

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

I'm actually just imaginary.

Someone stated Manziel would go late 1st or 2nd round, maybe they want to back that up by saying he won't go top 10.


I often wondered if you were real or just a figment of my imagination

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft
Post #: 1244
RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/10/2014 8:22:59 PM   
marty


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Not a surprise, Ian doesn't have the balls to back up his 50-1 odds bet.

I'm not sure I trust any of these boys with big egos to pay up, so that's another thing.

Manziel is a top 10 talent, and will go in the top 10, probably top 5, unless something dramatic happens between now and draft day. I think he goes #4 to Cleveland.
Post #: 1245
RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/10/2014 8:35:26 PM   
Ian Joseph


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Not a surprise, Ian doesn't have the balls to back up his 50-1 odds bet.

I'm not sure I trust any of these boys with big egos to pay up, so that's another thing.

Manziel is a top 10 talent, and will go in the top 10, probably top 5, unless something dramatic happens between now and draft day. I think he goes #4 to Cleveland.


Yawn.

I don't have the balls to bet you becuz you don't have the balls to stick to the script.

It is what it is. Good luck.

_____________________________

Hate the message, not the messenger.

Enjoy the process; crave the goal.

Believe.
Post #: 1246
RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/10/2014 8:48:41 PM   
kwheats

 

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2014's Quarterback Conundrum
Thursday, January 09, 2014




With respect to quarterbacks in the draft, you’ll always hear pundits make observations such as, “this QB has a great deep ball” or “he always folds when he’s under pressure in the pocket.” But how do you know those are true and not bias from a small sample of observed snaps? The simple answer is that you don’t. What I’ve aimed to do this year (and in years past) is to quantify those observations in an effort complement film study and analysis of draft prospects. Instead of guessing about the potency of Manziel’s deep ball, you can pull up the legitimate statistic.

To do that, I’ve hand charted every one of Teddy Bridgewater, Derek Carr, Johnny Manziel, and Blake Bortles’ attempts this year on everything from pass distance to throws against the blitz. The data here can’t render an opinion for you, but it can provide an effective complement to your knowledge on a prospect.

Where Did They Throw the Ball?

The ‘zones’ in the chart represent where the QB threw the ball on the field, that is exactly the spot the receiver caught the ball. This is to make sure yards after the catch don’t influence our opinion on the QBs.

Targets-
http://i.imgur.com/wyizzs0.jpg
- Most notable for Bridgewater is the lack of screens incorporated in the offense. Some have said that Bridgewater throws a high quantity of short passes, however the screens a QB normally utilizes have become short throws so that Bridgewater throws 53% of his passes in the 1-10 yard zones.

- Derek Carr is the complete opposite, throwing 33% of his passes behind the line of scrimmage, but few in the 1-10 yard range. The high number of short attempts means that he throws the deep ball less than average 11.35% of the time. In addition he throws to the important intermediate zone (11-20 yards) 18.3% of the time which means overall he pushes the ball down the field less than normal.

- Similar to Carr, Bortles doesn’t throw the deep ball as much as average, but makes up for it by hitting intermediate routes more often - throwing from 6-20 yards 40% of the time.

- In an era of screen passes, Manziel threw the deep ball far more than the other QBs he’s compared to here. Manziel targeted his WRs nearly 19% of the time on passes deeper than 20 yards and still went to his intermediate targets 19% of the time.

How Accurate Were They?

This requires a bit of explaining. The chart below represents each QBs accuracy in the individual target zones when adjusting for drops by their receivers. The colors represent how that accuracy compares to the ‘Average QB’, green is better than average, yellow average, red is below-average. Let’s get to it.

http://i.imgur.com/UFWnqVj.jpg

- It’s pretty clear that Bridgewater cleans up in every zone except the deep ball. He’s excellent throwing the short ball where he’s about 6-7% above average for the two zones. Some have criticized Bridgewater’s deep ball, and while not bad - his completion percentage of about 51% is about average.

- Having a big arm is a trait that every scout desires, but that doesn’t matter if it’s not particularly effective. Derek Carr’s accuracy on 20+ yard throws is poor, coming in nearly 7% below-average. In addition, his accuracy on NFL type throws (11-20 yards) is just about as expected at 64%. His only redeeming category is in the 6-10 yard range where he is slightly above average.

- There's an interesting dichotomy in Bortles’ throw ability. His 55% completion percentage on deep throws is extremely positive, but he’s only average on the intermediate throws hitting 64% of his total targets. However, he’s above average in the 6-10 range as well, so it’s likely that hitting that intermediate zone is just a matter of getting the touch down.

- For all the criticism Manziel gets, he’s extremely good at hitting his targets downfield. His ‘NFL type’ throws in the 11-20 yard range is the highest in the top 8 QBs in this class at 70.5% and he’s slightly better than Bortles at hitting the 20+ yard throws.

- Before we start getting into the debates about Manziel scrambling around the heaving it up for Mike Evans…his accuracy was similar when throwing solely from the pocket, hitting 67% of his 11-20 yard passes and 59% of his 20+ yard passes

How Do They Do Under Pressure?

I’ve got quite a few stats for these QBs, but for the sake of brevity I’ve picked their completion percentage while being blitzed and under pressure to highlight. For reference, a blitz counts regardless of whether the O-line picks it up, but under pressure is when the QB is moved off his spot or has to get rid of the ball quicker than anticipated.
http://i.imgur.com/db0HWPQ.jpg
Pressure
- Upon first glance it’s pretty clear that Carr is lacking in both categories. His 50% completion percentage when under pressure is the worst among the top 8 QBs in this class and he’s not setting the world ablaze against the blitz either.

- When looking at both categories, Bridgewater is the clear winner. He and Bortles both complete about 63% of their passes when under pressure, but Bridgewater is heads above the other QBs against the blitz – nearly matching his ability when there are no extra rushers.

- Bortles has been noted for his success when under pressure and it shows here, hitting 63% of his passes when the defense is bearing down. He has the second highest completion percentage against the blitz at 71.05%.

- Manziel’s just about average in both categories where he’s just about where you’d expect a top notch college QB to be.

< Message edited by kwheats -- 1/10/2014 9:03:01 PM >
Post #: 1247
RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/10/2014 8:50:37 PM   
kwheats

 

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2014's Quarterback Conundrum
Thursday, January 09, 2014


page 2

How Did Their Systems Affect Them?

My goal here was to take out the variability of systems they all played in. Thus, how would Derek Carr have performed in an average system? This is imperfect, but it gives you a feel for how the systems helped or harmed them.

What I’ve done is taken out drops and then used the data to create an average system. The result is what their overall completion percentage would have been if they had played in an average system and the difference between the actual and adjusted completion percentages.
http://i.imgur.com/97DoRoS.jpg
Pressure
- Bridgewater, Bortles and Manziel’s systems had a limited effect on their results from the 2013 season. As you can see in the first section, none of them played in a system that put them in a position to artificially increase their production.

- Derek Carr on the other hand would lose 3.5% off his completion percentage for the season. When you decrease his number of screens which are a high percentage pass and increase the number of below-average deep passes – it shows how much effect the system had on his production.

< Message edited by kwheats -- 1/10/2014 9:03:52 PM >
Post #: 1248
RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/10/2014 9:07:44 PM   
Ricky J


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Not a surprise, Ian doesn't have the balls to back up his 50-1 odds bet.

I'm not sure I trust any of these boys with big egos to pay up, so that's another thing.

Manziel is a top 10 talent, and will go in the top 10, probably top 5, unless something dramatic happens between now and draft day. I think he goes #4 to Cleveland.


Yawn.

I don't have the balls to bet you becuz you don't have the balls to stick to the script.

It is what it is. Good luck.

marty, seriously, you are not going to bet anyone on this board because to pay up you have to give up your anonymity. You are not willing to do that, are you?
Post #: 1249
RE: College Football (Future Vikings!) - 1/10/2014 9:24:21 PM   
marty


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I"m not worried about that Ricky.

I'm concerned that these boys with big egos won't pay up, they might come up with some excuse why it wasn't valid. And now Ian has backed down on the 50-1 odds, changing the script, but saying that I wasn't sticking to the script.

The bet of 50-1 odds sounded quite intriguing to me, but why make it now ? Manziel could be in a car accident next week. The bet was proposed before Manziel even declared, so I would have lost the bet if he didn't declare. It would like betting a futures bet on the Vikings winning the SB in 2017. The week of the draft, I would have given (and still would) strong consideration to a 50-1 bet on Manziel being drafted as one of the top 2 picks.

My proposal of a bet on Manziel being taken in the top 10, was a separate bet, and we could have made multiple bets. I was seeing if all this stupid talk of him being a 2nd rounder, just like those that were telling me Justin Blackmon wouldn't be drafted until the 2nd round, if they really believed that, than put their money where their mouths were.

While I don't think it's a totally dependent relationship (Manziel could be the top pick in the draft, even if Seattle loses THIS weekend), I think if Seattle wins the SB with Wilson at QB, that will elevate Manziel's stock, insuring he'll get drafting in the top 5.
Post #: 1250
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