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SoMnFan -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 8:26:35 AM)
14. Minnesota Vikings (8-7-1) Week 17 ranking: 13 New Year's resolution: String it all together. The Vikings played very little complementary football during an embarrassing finish to the season. One week might have featured a pivotal game for the offense, while the next belonged to the defense, but the Vikings were unable to put all three phases together when it mattered most down the stretch. That has been a theme ever since Mike Zimmer arrived in 2014. Minnesota has struggled to find consistency. Although it appears Zimmer and general manager Rick Spielman are staying put, they will more than ever need to be on the same page to make up for a disappointing season. -- Courtney Cronin

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 8:34:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer quote: ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen Cool the hyperbole. Nobody is suggesting you said we "mortgage the entire future of the team to draft one starting guard". I don't know. I'm getting pretty close to there. Seems like an eternity since we've had consistently decent offensive line play doesn't it? Amazing how Vikings fans are always about two years and two painful losses behind the times. I told you guys two years ago we should have drafted another offensive linemen and passed on Dalvin Cook. The chickens have finally come home to roost. There's no reason to buy sexy rims for the tires when your engine isn't running. 1/2 out of playoffs where a missed fog in GB would have got us in the playoffs....roost my ass. Is Pittsburgh firing Tomlin? If we didn't draft Cook we were drafting Hunt or Kamara in the 2nd or 3rd..... Not really sure what that post really meant. Try rewriting it. You act like we were 5-11....we were 1/2 game out of the playoffs and you post like we weren't even close. You also know that if we didn't draft Cook we were drafting Kamara or Hunt in the same round or later. Oh and after NO drafted Kamara how did that work out? Kansas City and New Orleans both have good offensive lines. Thanks for cementing my point. No they drafted their RB and fixed the Oline....in the same draft too. You are wrong on Cook... Yea okay. 2018: The Chiefs drafted Khalil McKenzie in the 6th round. He's not a starter. 2017: The Chiefs drafted zero offensive linemen 2018: The Saints drafted Rick Leonard in the 4th round. He's not a starter (not even on the roster). 2017: The Saints drafted Ryan Ramczyk in the first round. He's a good player, but has yet to be selected to the Pro Bowl or make an all-pro team. *******On a side note, New Orleans led the NFL in total offensive yardage in 2016, leading up to those two drafts. So, saying they fixed the offensive line while drafting a running back is very debatable. They also had 17 rushing touchdowns in 2016, which ranked 6th. GAME - SET - MATCH And for what it's worth, I happen to think Kareem Hunt and Alvin Kamara are far superior football players to Dalvin Cook. Drafting a RB is totally independent from building an Oline....no matter what you want to pin on Cook. Quit the bs.

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 8:42:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CPAMAN quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer Would you fire the Pitt Coach and GM right now too....1/2 game from making the playoffs. The Vikings were terrible at season's end. How can you find anything positive about the fate of this season? A half game from the playoffs? [&:] Positive? Firing a coach and a GM is an extreme 1 year after making the Championship game....Chicago is a the better team this year and what do you do? You add pieces in the offseason...same thing the other 8-7-1 team is going to have to do. Figure out the problem areas and more aggressively address them thru trades, FA signings, and the draft. You don't pretend we were going to win it all but you don't go the other extreme either....we were over .500 not 2-14.

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 8:52:03 AM)
What did Chicago do this year to be better than us? They traded away two firsts for Mack, signed Trey Burton,Allen Robinson, Amakamura, Gabriel, and some others. They also had a great draft.....they had the best offseason we have seen in a while but they also had a ton of money to spend.

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 9:34:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CPAMAN quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer Would you fire the Pitt Coach and GM right now too....1/2 game from making the playoffs. The Vikings were terrible at season's end. How can you find anything positive about the fate of this season? A half game from the playoffs? [&:] Precisely. I was as close to playing power forward for the Lakers. All I needed was a tryout, 11 inches of height, 30 years off my life and some athleticism.

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 9:36:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer quote: ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen Cool the hyperbole. Nobody is suggesting you said we "mortgage the entire future of the team to draft one starting guard". I don't know. I'm getting pretty close to there. Seems like an eternity since we've had consistently decent offensive line play doesn't it? Amazing how Vikings fans are always about two years and two painful losses behind the times. I told you guys two years ago we should have drafted another offensive linemen and passed on Dalvin Cook. The chickens have finally come home to roost. There's no reason to buy sexy rims for the tires when your engine isn't running. 1/2 out of playoffs where a missed fog in GB would have got us in the playoffs....roost my ass. Is Pittsburgh firing Tomlin? If we didn't draft Cook we were drafting Hunt or Kamara in the 2nd or 3rd..... Not really sure what that post really meant. Try rewriting it. You act like we were 5-11....we were 1/2 game out of the playoffs and you post like we weren't even close. You also know that if we didn't draft Cook we were drafting Kamara or Hunt in the same round or later. Oh and after NO drafted Kamara how did that work out? Kansas City and New Orleans both have good offensive lines. Thanks for cementing my point. No they drafted their RB and fixed the Oline....in the same draft too. You are wrong on Cook... Yea okay. 2018: The Chiefs drafted Khalil McKenzie in the 6th round. He's not a starter. 2017: The Chiefs drafted zero offensive linemen 2018: The Saints drafted Rick Leonard in the 4th round. He's not a starter (not even on the roster). 2017: The Saints drafted Ryan Ramczyk in the first round. He's a good player, but has yet to be selected to the Pro Bowl or make an all-pro team. *******On a side note, New Orleans led the NFL in total offensive yardage in 2016, leading up to those two drafts. So, saying they fixed the offensive line while drafting a running back is very debatable. They also had 17 rushing touchdowns in 2016, which ranked 6th. GAME - SET - MATCH And for what it's worth, I happen to think Kareem Hunt and Alvin Kamara are far superior football players to Dalvin Cook. Drafting a RB is totally independent from building an Oline....no matter what you want to pin on Cook. Quit the bs. You started the running back nonsense, not me. My original post was about the offensive line and how it was ignored.

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 9:37:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: CPAMAN quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer Would you fire the Pitt Coach and GM right now too....1/2 game from making the playoffs. The Vikings were terrible at season's end. How can you find anything positive about the fate of this season? A half game from the playoffs? [&:] Positive? Firing a coach and a GM is an extreme 1 year after making the Championship game....Chicago is a the better team this year and what do you do? You add pieces in the offseason...same thing the other 8-7-1 team is going to have to do. Figure out the problem areas and more aggressively address them thru trades, FA signings, and the draft. You don't pretend we were going to win it all but you don't go the other extreme either....we were over .500 not 2-14. Great. We finished a game better than the Browns. In most years, that will get you 2-14.

Karl Juhnke -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 9:54:56 AM)
To go from 13 wins, then add a franchise QB...then drop 5 wins from your total. There's absolutely nothing positive about that. This season was an abject failure.

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 9:57:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke To go from 13 wins, then add a franchise QB...then drop 5 wins from your total. There's absolutely nothing positive about that. This season was an abject failure. They had an opportunity to sign Keenum. That, IMO, was the biggest failure during the off-season. Kirk Cousins is not made for a team with a bad offensive line. Keenum was able to work some Houdini now and then with his legs and moxy. We are two years away from a decent offensive line, at-best. Cousins will be run out of town by 2020. He's set up to fail. If I were him, I'd walk right into Spielman's office and tell him if he isn't going to build the offensive line that I want $87-million a year. If you are ultimately going to be the fall guy, you might as well get paid for it.

Trekgeekscott -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 10:07:20 AM)
OK. I am going to give my year end analysis. 1. Preifer has got to go. Kickers come here and learn how to suck. he messes with their mechanics and they start missing kicks left and right. Carlson hits just one of those kicks in GB and we are in the playoffs today. 2. That Buffalo loss sure hurts more now, doesn't it? 3. The Vikings beat exactly one team this year that ended up with a winning record. and at the time they didn't have a winning record. the Eagles. 4. They got it right firing Flip when they did. But I'm not sure Stefanski is the answer....but I could see them giving him a chance at the fulltime job with new QB coach that can teach Cousins not to fold up like oragami in a big **ing game. and a fulltime Oline coach. The Defense looked exceptionally gassed. to whomever argued with me about time of possesion not mattering. This is what happens when you lose time of possession. Your defense gets to tired to stop anything late in a game. This offseason we will have some minor cap issues. some players may have to be restructured or released. But depth is good on the Defensive side of the ball. Needs are going to be 1. a back up QB for Kirk cracks under pressure Cousins. 2. a WR beyond Thielen and Diggs that can made the opposing defense pay for doubling both Theilen and Diggs. 3. I can't express this enough, an offensive line that can ing block for more than .5 seconds. O'Neill looks good but still needs work Elflein healthy is good, Reiff is serviceable, but we need two solid guards and an Oline coach to get them to play far better. Defense is pretty good when not on the field for 40 minutes a game. but we may not be able to keep all of Barr, Richardson, Harris, Waynes etc. Might need to cut/restructure Everson Griffin. This is where Zimmer needs to start acting like Belichick. Even when they are good, start cutting them, trading them etc. Griffin was not the same player after missing 5 games with mental issues. He's not worth the money anymore. Cousins, ** it, He's staying or trade him to Miami or something. Find us a better young QB. We need the next Mayfield, Mahomes... Enough pussyfooting around with sir foldsalot. This team looked flat on offense all year. Flip was a bad hire. Turns out the good offensive mind from Philly ended up the head coach of the Colts... Not the young QB coach we took. Good Riddance. So all this rambling aside, New QB with more courage under fire than Cousins, a new OC who can get the most out of our talent, a new Oline coach and players to protect the QB (whomever that is) and open holes for Cook. Make some tough decisions on D and build the winner this team should be. Oh, and it's time to turn on the seat warmers. I don't think Zimmer or Speilman should feel comfortable right now. That seat might need to feel a bit hot for them this year. No more letdowns.

Trekgeekscott -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 10:09:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke To go from 13 wins, then add a franchise QB...then drop 5 wins from your total. There's absolutely nothing positive about that. This season was an abject failure. They had an opportunity to sign Keenum. That, IMO, was the biggest failure during the off-season. Kirk Cousins is not made for a team with a bad offensive line. Keenum was able to work some Houdini now and then with his legs and moxy. We are two years away from a decent offensive line, at-best. Cousins will be run out of town by 2020. He's set up to fail. If I were him, I'd walk right into Spielman's office and tell him if he isn't going to build the offensive line that I want $87-million a year. If you are ultimately going to be the fall guy, you might as well get paid for it. Keenum? Brad? What did Denver do this year? Oh yeah, they didn't do shit. Keenum is not the answer here. Cousins wasn't either. Cousins can walk into Speilman's office and demand anything he wants. Speilman can easily say we are paying you 84 million for three years all guaranteed and you aren't earning that pay. Perhaps you should leave my office before I trade you to Tampa Bay.

CPAMAN -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 10:12:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke To go from 13 wins, then add a franchise QB...then drop 5 wins from your total. There's absolutely nothing positive about that. This season was an abject failure. Apparently, you are not a true fan if the season was not fulfilling for you.

thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 10:14:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer What did Chicago do this year to be better than us? They traded away two firsts for Mack, signed Trey Burton,Allen Robinson, Amakamura, Gabriel, and some others. They also had a great draft.....they had the best offseason we have seen in a while but they also had a ton of money to spend. Is 2019 Chicago the 2018 Jaguars?

Trekgeekscott -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 10:15:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thebigo quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer What did Chicago do this year to be better than us? They traded away two firsts for Mack, signed Trey Burton,Allen Robinson, Amakamura, Gabriel, and some others. They also had a great draft.....they had the best offseason we have seen in a while but they also had a ton of money to spend. Is 2019 Chicago the 2018 Jaguars? They did play a last place schedule this year and they will not surprise anyone next season. So they very well could be. But I wouldn't count on it.

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 10:16:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke To go from 13 wins, then add a franchise QB...then drop 5 wins from your total. There's absolutely nothing positive about that. This season was an abject failure. Tough choices need to be made on the roster......Illoka, Jones, Compton, Sendejo being gone will be the easy ones. We didn't have the roster to compete for the title. Thinking Keenum was the answer? How did Denver do this year?

eagleflorida -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 10:27:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Todd M I don't want to give Cousins a free pass but if all year long you knew you could be, or were under instant pressure it would have to take its toll. With what we had he put up numbers no other QB has (I believe) the 30's TD's, 10 or under INT's, 4000k yards, and 70+% is unprecedented. I think he could throw the shit out of it out there if things were running a lot smoother. I think he can get there and we'll all be super pleased. Shame it wasn't instant gratification but it could still hit. We had the 6th tandem WR's to get 100/1000. There could be a lot of sunshine next year if we can just settle the damn OL. We don't even have to achieve good next year... Absolutely right Todd. The Cousin bashing is out of hand IMO. Sure he's got his warts as do nearly every QB in the league. Does this not have any bearing on things? The 425 completions are a franchise record for a single season, and the 606 attempts tied Hall of Famer Warren Moon (1995) for the most in one season. His completion percentage was the second-highest by a Vikings quarterback, and the yardage total is the second-most all-time behind only Daunte Culpepper’s 4,717 in 2004. The 30-year-old became the first player in NFL history to throw for 4,000-plus yards, complete more than 70 percent of his passes and throw at least 30 touchdowns with 10 or fewer interceptions. Just sayin'

Daniel Lee Young -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 10:28:17 AM)
Yea Sam Bradford was the answer.. case keenum was the answer.. Kirk cousins is the answer... Meanwhile teams continue to play in our backfield like they are paid to do and we can’t stop them... Fn brilliant people here, yea baby...

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 10:33:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CPAMAN quote: ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke To go from 13 wins, then add a franchise QB...then drop 5 wins from your total. There's absolutely nothing positive about that. This season was an abject failure. Apparently, you are not a true fan if the season was not fulfilling for you. Who said it was fullfilling? Last year was the bigger letdown for me since we were that much closer. I also don't tear my house down because one window leaks too. Nothing wrong with the foundation IMO. You fix the problem that caused the leak and you prepare for the other leaks that you think that might come up next year. The obvious leaks are the Oline, 3rd WR, and LB if they don't resign Barr. Tough calls are Rhodes/Waynes, Griffen, Richardson, and the TE position.

The Happy Norseman -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 10:40:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke To go from 13 wins, then add a franchise QB...then drop 5 wins from your total. There's absolutely nothing positive about that. This season was an abject failure. They had an opportunity to sign Keenum. That, IMO, was the biggest failure during the off-season. Kirk Cousins is not made for a team with a bad offensive line. Keenum was able to work some Houdini now and then with his legs and moxy. We are two years away from a decent offensive line, at-best. Cousins will be run out of town by 2020. He's set up to fail. If I were him, I'd walk right into Spielman's office and tell him if he isn't going to build the offensive line that I want $87-million a year. If you are ultimately going to be the fall guy, you might as well get paid for it. When the Vikings signed Cousins it was assumed by pretty much everyone that Spielman would upgrade the offensive line, because as you correctly point out, Cousins is not made for a team with a bad offensive line. The fact that Spielman did not adequately address the oline is the biggest failure of the offseason. You're also right that its a 2 year process. Had Spielman done the right thing last off-season, we would have had a decent line with further improvements coming in 2019. Total failure on his part.

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 10:44:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke To go from 13 wins, then add a franchise QB...then drop 5 wins from your total. There's absolutely nothing positive about that. This season was an abject failure. They had an opportunity to sign Keenum. That, IMO, was the biggest failure during the off-season. Kirk Cousins is not made for a team with a bad offensive line. Keenum was able to work some Houdini now and then with his legs and moxy. We are two years away from a decent offensive line, at-best. Cousins will be run out of town by 2020. He's set up to fail. If I were him, I'd walk right into Spielman's office and tell him if he isn't going to build the offensive line that I want $87-million a year. If you are ultimately going to be the fall guy, you might as well get paid for it. When the Vikings signed Cousins it was assumed by pretty much everyone that Spielman would upgrade the offensive line, because as you correctly point out, Cousins is not made for a team with a bad offensive line. The fact that Spielman did not adequately address the oline is the biggest failure of the offseason. You're also right that its a 2 year process. Had Spielman done the right thing last off-season, we would have had a decent line with further improvements coming in 2019. Total failure on his part. He didn't totally ignore it but Compton (Cheap FA), Jones (Trade), and hoping Elflein would heal up----none were the right moves. He also drafted O'Neil.

Trekgeekscott -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 10:46:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke To go from 13 wins, then add a franchise QB...then drop 5 wins from your total. There's absolutely nothing positive about that. This season was an abject failure. They had an opportunity to sign Keenum. That, IMO, was the biggest failure during the off-season. Kirk Cousins is not made for a team with a bad offensive line. Keenum was able to work some Houdini now and then with his legs and moxy. We are two years away from a decent offensive line, at-best. Cousins will be run out of town by 2020. He's set up to fail. If I were him, I'd walk right into Spielman's office and tell him if he isn't going to build the offensive line that I want $87-million a year. If you are ultimately going to be the fall guy, you might as well get paid for it. When the Vikings signed Cousins it was assumed by pretty much everyone that Spielman would upgrade the offensive line, because as you correctly point out, Cousins is not made for a team with a bad offensive line. The fact that Spielman did not adequately address the oline is the biggest failure of the offseason. You're also right that its a 2 year process. Had Spielman done the right thing last off-season, we would have had a decent line with further improvements coming in 2019. Total failure on his part. I love how people keep saying he failed to address the Oline. His efforts are substandard grabbing flotsam and jetsam but he's hardly ignored it. the Oline needs a lot of work but he did get O'Neill who looks like a find. You can't discount the death of Tony Sparano on the eve of the season throwing that unit into disarray. and Elflein playing hurt and Easton (who was better than average) being lost for the season. Compton, Jones moving Remmers to G, all bad ideas. But what was available that they could have squeezed under the cap? Sure I wish they would have done more...I am just curious what more they could have done. They need to prioritize the Oline this offseason, Finding a trade or FA, Draft draft draft and HIRE A TOP NOTCH COACH for the Oline or the same things will happen next year.

David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 10:55:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer Drafting a RB is totally independent from building an Oline....no matter what you want to pin on Cook. Quit the bs. Nothing is independent. You only have so much "currency". Spending a high pick on a RB means one less swing at an O-Lineman.

Trekgeekscott -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 10:56:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer Drafting a RB is totally independent from building an Oline....no matter what you want to pin on Cook. Quit the bs. Nothing is independent. You only have so much "currency". Spending a high pick on a RB means one less swing at an O-Lineman. Cook isn't the problem here. And never was. He's here. Now let's build an Oline that can open some holes for him. You can replace Murray with a lower pick. and save money there.

David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 10:59:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott quote: ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke To go from 13 wins, then add a franchise QB...then drop 5 wins from your total. There's absolutely nothing positive about that. This season was an abject failure. They had an opportunity to sign Keenum. That, IMO, was the biggest failure during the off-season. Kirk Cousins is not made for a team with a bad offensive line. Keenum was able to work some Houdini now and then with his legs and moxy. We are two years away from a decent offensive line, at-best. Cousins will be run out of town by 2020. He's set up to fail. If I were him, I'd walk right into Spielman's office and tell him if he isn't going to build the offensive line that I want $87-million a year. If you are ultimately going to be the fall guy, you might as well get paid for it. When the Vikings signed Cousins it was assumed by pretty much everyone that Spielman would upgrade the offensive line, because as you correctly point out, Cousins is not made for a team with a bad offensive line. The fact that Spielman did not adequately address the oline is the biggest failure of the offseason. You're also right that its a 2 year process. Had Spielman done the right thing last off-season, we would have had a decent line with further improvements coming in 2019. Total failure on his part. I love how people keep saying he failed to address the Oline. His efforts are substandard grabbing flotsam and jetsam but he's hardly ignored it. the Oline needs a lot of work but he did get O'Neill who looks like a find. You can't discount the death of Tony Sparano on the eve of the season throwing that unit into disarray. and Elflein playing hurt and Easton (who was better than average) being lost for the season. Compton, Jones moving Remmers to G, all bad ideas. But what was available that they could have squeezed under the cap? Sure I wish they would have done more...I am just curious what more they could have done. They need to prioritize the Oline this offseason, Finding a trade or FA, Draft draft draft and HIRE A TOP NOTCH COACH for the Oline or the same things will happen next year. I think "better than average" is a significant exaggeration - unless you're using a baseline of only Vikings linemen. Easton is probably a solid 6th lineman. Maybe an acceptable starter if you have really good players on either side of him. He's also finished the last 2 years on IR. That's a huge red flag. As a FA, I'm fine giving him a minimal contract and a chance to compete to make the team, but we better add at least 2 or 3 other OGs through the draft or free agency to compete with him.

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/2/2019 11:02:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer Drafting a RB is totally independent from building an Oline....no matter what you want to pin on Cook. Quit the bs. Nothing is independent. You only have so much "currency". Spending a high pick on a RB means one less swing at an O-Lineman. They signed Reiff and Remmers the same year they drafted Cook....there was plenty of currency to build an Oline and draft an RB in 2017. Both were rated as high FA also. Many different ways to build a line and it has nothing to do with needing/wanting Cook. They drafted the guy they targeted, Elflein, a round lower. Spielman probably lucked into O'Neil in 2018 after the targeted guys were gone.

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