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Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 11:34:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro quote: ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer . . that loss in cincinnati is on zimmer and spielman...how can a gm be so incredibly phucking dumb as to watch his o-line fail season after season and do nothing productive to fix it?...how can a meat-head caveman head coach run the same failed plays over and over again...how can he think that it's okay not to dress rehearse your starting team in the preseason at least one quarter in each game?.... if managed properly, the Vikings would have beaten the bengals by 17 points last Sunday - but we're just too lost as an organization to execute that into reality.... Can't argue with this. Couple that with a perrennial brutal oline makes it tough to watch. Most of the things this regime does make little sense. Esp signing Cousins (a qb that needs max protect) and you continue to go cheap on the oline. Paying Cousins that much money is one thing, but not protect that investment was like doubling down on stupid. They invested 2 firsts and 2 seconds and a third in the most recent drafts....not sure I agree that they aren't investing in oline...I would say that Spielman was late to the party on investing but they have invested heavily recently on Oline. If you draft a Bradbury #1 and he’s not working out, you don’t credit for that investment UNLESS you react to the bad pick by signing competition / someone better. If you draft a Cleveland 2nd and plug him into G where he’s struggling, you are not optimizing your draft pick. If you draft a Darrisaw #1 and he misses training camp / start of season and all you do is fall back on backups instead of signing or trading for competition / someone better [than Hill Brandel] … you have not adequately addressed the line. You don’t get credit for spending capital - no matter how much - if the product sucks. That isn't what was said...rapto said they went cheap on Oline. 2nd and 1st round picks aren't cheap; the new contract to O'Neal isn't cheap. Getting Davis and Darrisaw playing asap is the key to improving the line. If Bradburry is the weak link even as a 1st rounder get rid of him but I give him somewhat of a pass until you get Davis in there and Darrisaw at LT. Darrisaw was supposed to be healthy and soon will be...Davis will be in soon too. Long season. Sure, nothing is written in stone / its only game one ... Bradbury can stabilize, Darrisaw get healthy AND be a player this year, Davis can look like a sure starter in waiting or even press to start. Hill, Cleveland and Udoh can settle down. All possible but all more wishful thinking than expectation. Is that how you want your GM and coaching staff operating? Hoping things will fall into place as you go along ... Once again with this regime ... we have gone through a full offseason and ended up with a worse OL than the bad OL from the previous season. Our solution to last year's atrocity (as of Wed 09-15-2021) was to let Reiff walk, have Cleveland switch sides, keep Bradbury at C, and fill LT and RG with back-ups. I addressed the main point, you just haven't grasped it yet.

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 12:07:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro quote: ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer . . that loss in cincinnati is on zimmer and spielman...how can a gm be so incredibly phucking dumb as to watch his o-line fail season after season and do nothing productive to fix it?...how can a meat-head caveman head coach run the same failed plays over and over again...how can he think that it's okay not to dress rehearse your starting team in the preseason at least one quarter in each game?.... if managed properly, the Vikings would have beaten the bengals by 17 points last Sunday - but we're just too lost as an organization to execute that into reality.... Can't argue with this. Couple that with a perrennial brutal oline makes it tough to watch. Most of the things this regime does make little sense. Esp signing Cousins (a qb that needs max protect) and you continue to go cheap on the oline. Paying Cousins that much money is one thing, but not protect that investment was like doubling down on stupid. They invested 2 firsts and 2 seconds and a third in the most recent drafts....not sure I agree that they aren't investing in oline...I would say that Spielman was late to the party on investing but they have invested heavily recently on Oline. If you draft a Bradbury #1 and he’s not working out, you don’t credit for that investment UNLESS you react to the bad pick by signing competition / someone better. If you draft a Cleveland 2nd and plug him into G where he’s struggling, you are not optimizing your draft pick. If you draft a Darrisaw #1 and he misses training camp / start of season and all you do is fall back on backups instead of signing or trading for competition / someone better [than Hill Brandel] … you have not adequately addressed the line. You don’t get credit for spending capital - no matter how much - if the product sucks. That isn't what was said...rapto said they went cheap on Oline. 2nd and 1st round picks aren't cheap; the new contract to O'Neal isn't cheap. Getting Davis and Darrisaw playing asap is the key to improving the line. If Bradburry is the weak link even as a 1st rounder get rid of him but I give him somewhat of a pass until you get Davis in there and Darrisaw at LT. Darrisaw was supposed to be healthy and soon will be...Davis will be in soon too. Long season. Sure, nothing is written in stone / its only game one ... Bradbury can stabilize, Darrisaw get healthy AND be a player this year, Davis can look like a sure starter in waiting or even press to start. Hill, Cleveland and Udoh can settle down. All possible but all more wishful thinking than expectation. Is that how you want your GM and coaching staff operating? Hoping things will fall into place as you go along ... Once again with this regime ... we have gone through a full offseason and ended up with a worse OL than the bad OL from the previous season. Our solution to last year's atrocity (as of Wed 09-15-2021) was to let Reiff walk, have Cleveland switch sides, keep Bradbury at C, and fill LT and RG with back-ups. I addressed the main point, you just haven't grasped it yet. Almost complete....drafted a new LT & RG that were ranked highly, signed Cole and moved on from Dozier.....& I have grasped that it is a long season. Sooner that Darrisaw and Davis get in the lineup the better. Wishful thinking? Nah I saw the game just like you did.

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 12:08:21 PM)
I remember people being pissed after the 1st few games of Jefferson last year that we traded away Diggs.....impatient. Lots of changes on the Oline, lots of changes on the Defense....hope to see improvements each week that lead to wins...that is the key.

beo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 12:14:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer I remember people being pissed after the 1st few games of Jefferson last year that we traded away Diggs.....impatient. Lots of changes on the Oline, lots of changes on the Defense....hope to see improvements each week that lead to wins...that is the key. That's pretty fair... there would be a lot less angst if EITHER Darrisaw or Davis were playing. Personally frustrated because 1) we didn't sign a FA guard 2) Darrisaw isn't playing and the recent rumors on his timeline are not encouraging 3) I have ZERO faith Davis will get any playing time unless someone gets hurt... that just seems to be this regimes M.O.

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 12:24:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beo quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer I remember people being pissed after the 1st few games of Jefferson last year that we traded away Diggs.....impatient. Lots of changes on the Oline, lots of changes on the Defense....hope to see improvements each week that lead to wins...that is the key. That's pretty fair... there would be a lot less angst if EITHER Darrisaw or Davis were playing. Personally frustrated because 1) we didn't sign a FA guard 2) Darrisaw isn't playing and the recent rumors on his timeline are not encouraging 3) I have ZERO faith Davis will get any playing time unless someone gets hurt... that just seems to be this regimes M.O. Udoh development has me pissed....clearly he was nearly equal to Dozier last year with a higher floor. Davis will happen as he looked good preseason but I believe a Guard as more assignments to learn than a tackle. Darrisaw no idea. Keeping a Brandel on the PS for development is way better than keeping Dozier on there.....get some guys that can develop and actually have a higher ceiling.

thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 12:27:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer quote: ORIGINAL: beo quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer I remember people being pissed after the 1st few games of Jefferson last year that we traded away Diggs.....impatient. Lots of changes on the Oline, lots of changes on the Defense....hope to see improvements each week that lead to wins...that is the key. That's pretty fair... there would be a lot less angst if EITHER Darrisaw or Davis were playing. Personally frustrated because 1) we didn't sign a FA guard 2) Darrisaw isn't playing and the recent rumors on his timeline are not encouraging 3) I have ZERO faith Davis will get any playing time unless someone gets hurt... that just seems to be this regimes M.O. Udoh development has me pissed....clearly he was nearly equal to Dozier last year with a higher floor. Davis will happen as he looked good preseason but I believe a Guard as more assignments to learn than a tackle. Darrisaw no idea. Thing is he was green coming out of college, and over his first 2 seasons he has practiced (been developed) almost exclusively at RT.

Trekgeekscott -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 1:26:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer . . that loss in cincinnati is on zimmer and spielman...how can a gm be so incredibly phucking dumb as to watch his o-line fail season after season and do nothing productive to fix it?...how can a meat-head caveman head coach run the same failed plays over and over again...how can he think that it's okay not to dress rehearse your starting team in the preseason at least one quarter in each game?.... if managed properly, the Vikings would have beaten the bengals by 17 points last Sunday - but we're just too lost as an organization to execute that into reality.... I would like to point out that they haven't don't nothing to fix the Oline. they have drafted an Olineman high in several drafts... the problem here is that either they aren't good judges of Oline talent to begin with, or they are terrible at developing the talent. I would tend to think it is the second option as many of the guys they have drafted were highly regarded Oline prospects in college.

marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 1:28:02 PM)
I was hoping to see more positive posts with the Vikings in 1st place.

Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 1:33:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer I remember people being pissed after the 1st few games of Jefferson last year that we traded away Diggs.....impatient. Lots of changes on the Oline, lots of changes on the Defense....hope to see improvements each week that lead to wins...that is the key. I resolutely believe that things can improve. Not that you would notice or care, but I have been saying for weeks if not months that all the changes would take time to coalesce. My first comment Monday after the CIN game was essentially, this doesn't tell us who we are as a team yet. Again, my bitching and moaning are directed at the regime's half-assed methodology towards the OL. The results speak for themselves. DL bad last year? OK ... even with all world Hunter and top 2020 fa signing Pierce returning, lets add Tomlinson, Richardson, Weatherly, Griffen and draft Jones and Robinson. OL bad last year? OK ... lets draft an OT early to replace our 2nd best OL (who we let walk) and throw a middle round G at Dozier Bradbury Cleveland ... and we'll be good. Do you not see the disparity? Its nobody's fault that Darrisaw has a lingering injury ... its probably nobody's fault that the injury was missed in the pre-draft process ... It is nobody's fault but our own that after missing TC and going in for a second procedure, we did nothing to increase depth or competition at the LT position. Last year Hunter goes on IR and we grab Ngakoue ... Darrisaw goes down and we put Zack freakin' Bailey on the practice squad.

ratoppenheimer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 1:35:23 PM)
. . reiff was considered a fairly solid left tackle and spielman let him go...cleveland played left tackle for four years in college and was graded in the mid-70s by pff each year - we made him a right/left guard - does he have the anchor to play guard?...everyone thought he lucked out and drafted one of the better left tackle prospects this year, but his prospect had recent surgery, was injured when drafted, and still hasn't recovered.... this offseason there were more solid guards available through free agency than i can ever remember and we didn't pick one up...instead we moved a right tackle to guard and gave another right tackle a top-tier left tackle contract a year earlier than he had to.... obviously, a proven NFL veteran is much closer to a sure thing than a draft prospect, but spielman was expecting to plug and play draft picks this year and it didn't work out for him...he should have signed a left tackle four weeks ago when darrisaw had his second surgery, but he gave the job to a journeyman and signed o'neill instead....

David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 2:40:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marty I was hoping to see more positive posts with the Vikings in 1st place. Just be glad there aren't more negative posts with the Vikings in last place...

Brad H -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 3:06:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: marty I was hoping to see more positive posts with the Vikings in 1st place. Just be glad there aren't more negative posts with the Vikings in last place... The amazing thing is, the Lions may have had the most impressive performance.

TJSweens -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 3:11:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Brad H quote: ORIGINAL: David Levine quote: ORIGINAL: marty I was hoping to see more positive posts with the Vikings in 1st place. Just be glad there aren't more negative posts with the Vikings in last place... The amazing thing is, the Lions may have had the most impressive performance. Sounds about right. - Vikings - embarrassing OT loss to an inferior team - Packers and Bears - stomped into the face of the Earth by good teams - Lions - a competitive loss to a good team.

marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 6:32:33 PM)
The Vikings could have easily won, the fumble was a bit of a fluke. None of the other teams in the division could have easily won.

marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 6:34:35 PM)
I was hoping the Packers were playing a good team this week, go 0-2 and put them on the road to a bad season. Instead, they get the Lions at home, on National TV.

Ricky J -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 7:43:52 PM)
But Marty, if the LIONS win! IF THEY WIN!!

ronhextall -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 8:21:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marty The Vikings could have easily won, the fumble was a bit of a fluke. None of the other teams in the division could have easily won. I think the other teams would have all beat the Bengals. I think they all get to play them.

David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 8:36:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall quote: ORIGINAL: marty The Vikings could have easily won, the fumble was a bit of a fluke. None of the other teams in the division could have easily won. I think the other teams would have all beat the Bengals. I think they all get to play them. Bengals will win about four games this year. Do you know who was pressured at nearly twice the rate as cousins? Burrow. And he was sacked five times and limped off the field at one point.

Ricky J -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 8:41:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall quote: ORIGINAL: marty The Vikings could have easily won, the fumble was a bit of a fluke. None of the other teams in the division could have easily won. I think the other teams would have all beat the Bengals. I think they all get to play them. Nope. It just wasn't Green Bay's day. The Bears would of got F by the officials as well and the Lions would of found another way to lose as is their fate - until all changes this week for them of course ... I hope you aren't always as negative around your family as you are on these threads, Ron.

marty -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 9:02:02 PM)
David, maybe the Vikes have a hell of a d-line, and maybe the Bengals win 8 games with the playmakers they have on offense. Higgins is a guy you should have on your fantasy team.

thebigo -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/15/2021 11:12:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ricky J quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall quote: ORIGINAL: marty The Vikings could have easily won, the fumble was a bit of a fluke. None of the other teams in the division could have easily won. I think the other teams would have all beat the Bengals. I think they all get to play them. Nope. It just wasn't Green Bay's day. The Bears would of got F by the officials as well and the Lions would of found another way to lose as is their fate - until all changes this week for them of course ... I hope you aren't always as negative around your family as you are on these threads, Ron. If by "it just wasn't Green Bay's day" you mean they got completely beat down on both sides of the ball, then yes, it just wasn't Green Bay's day. 🤪

Bill Jandro -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/16/2021 7:45:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer . . reiff was considered a fairly solid left tackle and spielman let him go...cleveland played left tackle for four years in college and was graded in the mid-70s by pff each year - we made him a right/left guard - does he have the anchor to play guard?...everyone thought he lucked out and drafted one of the better left tackle prospects this year, but his prospect had recent surgery, was injured when drafted, and still hasn't recovered.... this offseason there were more solid guards available through free agency than i can ever remember and we didn't pick one up...instead we moved a right tackle to guard and gave another right tackle a top-tier left tackle contract a year earlier than he had to.... obviously, a proven NFL veteran is much closer to a sure thing than a draft prospect, but spielman was expecting to plug and play draft picks this year and it didn't work out for him...he should have signed a left tackle four weeks ago when darrisaw had his second surgery, but he gave the job to a journeyman and signed o'neill instead.... KC had a bad oline last season and their GM went out and fixed it. Our GM just continues to rely on a wing and a prayer.

ronhextall -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/16/2021 9:08:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ricky J quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall quote: ORIGINAL: marty The Vikings could have easily won, the fumble was a bit of a fluke. None of the other teams in the division could have easily won. I think the other teams would have all beat the Bengals. I think they all get to play them. Nope. It just wasn't Green Bay's day. The Bears would of got F by the officials as well and the Lions would of found another way to lose as is their fate - until all changes this week for them of course ... I hope you aren't always as negative around your family as you are on these threads, Ron. Negative = what the product delivers. The product delivers plenty of negative fuel and two playoff wins (1 a fluke) IMO is garbage this many years in. I honestly think long term the best result is a 0 to 3 win season. Blow it up, blow it all up. Speilman keeps overpaying linebackers and safeties in an era where you need DB's and pass rushers. He can't figure out how to build an OLine and that's pretty important when you commit to a QB that isn't exactly Mahomes when it comes to mobility and improvisation. None of it makes sense to me. IMO the quickest path to Super Bowl contention is to start over.

The Happy Norseman -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/16/2021 9:29:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall quote: ORIGINAL: Ricky J quote: ORIGINAL: ronhextall quote: ORIGINAL: marty The Vikings could have easily won, the fumble was a bit of a fluke. None of the other teams in the division could have easily won. I think the other teams would have all beat the Bengals. I think they all get to play them. Nope. It just wasn't Green Bay's day. The Bears would of got F by the officials as well and the Lions would of found another way to lose as is their fate - until all changes this week for them of course ... I hope you aren't always as negative around your family as you are on these threads, Ron. Negative = what the product delivers. The product delivers plenty of negative fuel and two playoff wins (1 a fluke) IMO is garbage this many years in. I honestly think long term the best result is a 0 to 3 win season. Blow it up, blow it all up. Speilman keeps overpaying linebackers and safeties in an era where you need DB's and pass rushers. He can't figure out how to build an OLine and that's pretty important when you commit to a QB that isn't exactly Mahomes when it comes to mobility and improvisation. None of it makes sense to me. This is what happens when you have 8 years of horrible oline draft picks. It's amazing that whoever is responsible for scouting olinemen for the Vikings still has a job. Spielman became the full time GM in 2012. Of the olinemen his regime has drafted since then, only one player drafted before 2019 is still on the team and that's Brian O'Neill. 2019's draft class produced Bradbury who has shown that he cannot play in this league, Dru Samia got cut, and Udoh should be a backup swing tackle, yet is now a starting Guard. 2020's Ezra Cleveland was drafted to be a Tackle once he put on some weight and gained some strength. He's now a starting Guard as well. Blake Brandel and Kyle Hinton could only make it to the PS. 2021 brought us Darrisaw and Davis. Like everyone else, my fingers are crossed that they buck the trend and become viable starters. If the Vikings were smart they'd throw in the towel with regards to drafting olinemen, and instead always stock the line with free agents.

Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (9/16/2021 10:02:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro quote: ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer . . reiff was considered a fairly solid left tackle and spielman let him go...cleveland played left tackle for four years in college and was graded in the mid-70s by pff each year - we made him a right/left guard - does he have the anchor to play guard?...everyone thought he lucked out and drafted one of the better left tackle prospects this year, but his prospect had recent surgery, was injured when drafted, and still hasn't recovered.... this offseason there were more solid guards available through free agency than i can ever remember and we didn't pick one up...instead we moved a right tackle to guard and gave another right tackle a top-tier left tackle contract a year earlier than he had to.... obviously, a proven NFL veteran is much closer to a sure thing than a draft prospect, but spielman was expecting to plug and play draft picks this year and it didn't work out for him...he should have signed a left tackle four weeks ago when darrisaw had his second surgery, but he gave the job to a journeyman and signed o'neill instead.... KC had a bad oline last season and their GM went out and fixed it. Our GM just continues to rely on a wing and a prayer. They had more cap room too...

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