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Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 10:48:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

Jones won 9 games with a much better defense.

Yup, he is better than Cousins who won 13

Makes sense to me.

Outside of Barkley he has almost no talent around him. He manufactured a win when it mattered. To me, that is the difference between him and Cousins. Jones laid his body on the line and gutted out a win. Cousins checked down on fourth down with the season on the line.

It's the difference between being a winner or a perennial brides maid.


Almost like you didn't watch the game. Cousins took hit after hit.




Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 10:51:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

Which teams do you think are satisfied at QB for the next 5 years and where were those QB's drafted?

KC
Buffalo
Cinncy
San Diego
Jacksonville

They were all drafted damn high. The rest of the league is looking or at the very least would pick up the phone.


You can include NYG 1st rounder also but looking at Dak 3rd round and SF 7th. So 2 out of the 8 didn't draft their QB in the first round.

I suggest we try unconventional first; 2024 we may have the capital to go high on QB. Don't think we can get there in 2023 but who knows.


Jones ? Darn average besides ripping the Vikings twice. He isn't proven anything. 9 wins and they are set for the next 5? Cousins wins 13 and some want to release him and tank.

Dak is a turn over machine.

Purdy, he craps out they might flip to Brady next year, he is far from a stone cold lock for 5 years and Shanahan gets the bulk of the credit IMO.


1) SD is out of the playoffs.

Jones has been good this year w/o a clear #1 WR.

First rounders: NYG, KC, Buffalo, Cinn, Jax.
Second rounders: Philly
Third Rounders: Dallas
7th: SF

You don't have to go all in on a qb.


Dak did nothing in the post season when he was a small % of the cap. He is no better than Cousins until he proves otherwise.

Has Hurts done anything? His durability is an issue.

Nobody dissatisfied with Cousins should be envious of Philly Dallas NE situations.

Only QB situations I am jealous of are the top shelf high end guys that pass well from the pocket and can run with they have to. They were all drafted high.


The timing of your posts are amazing. 12 hours ago Dak had a near-perfect game. 4 TDs and 0 picks.

There is just a real disconnect in here by people that are mesmerized by Cousin’s production from the critical trait or two that separates him from an playoff gamer - one who gives you a very scientific 50% chance maybe better of making something anything happen on that last 4th down. Cousins IMO will react the same way 3 out of four times. DL push up the middle - can’t take a sack - dump the ball well short to your blanketed TE or FB outlet.

Its not a guts thing … he showed a ton of grit this year making throws / executing playcalls while getting ragdolled. Its processing thing.

He is just genetically deficient at going off script … and the playoffs force you to improvise time after time. Everybody’s on point, the defenses are better (unless you play our dirty little secret), the windows are smaller and close quicker and all his insane preparation doesnt cover that.

Good QB but a worker bee. We have to find someone with at least some escapability and some improvisational ability. Some.

He’s a warm blanket for some people who would rather lay under a tree, scratch their belly, and freeze to death … instead of running into the blizzard looking for help. How many times have we all frozen over?




Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 10:56:39 AM)

These people are pupae and KC is their fuzzy cocoon.




Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:01:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes
These people are pupae and KC is their fuzzy cocoon.


KC won us over the year. The defense side is a bigger concern. If you can't fix it you may as well blow it up. Expectations were for a top 10 offense and a defense being 15-20 and improving as season went on....second part never happened.

For me even with the last checkdown by the KC the defense was the deciding factor. They just couldn't stop anything and should have given up another TD to Slayton.

Sounds like they postponed the KOC end of year news conference until tomorrow.....some speculating a new DC already.




David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:10:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

Which teams do you think are satisfied at QB for the next 5 years and where were those QB's drafted?

KC
Buffalo
Cinncy
San Diego
Jacksonville

They were all drafted damn high. The rest of the league is looking or at the very least would pick up the phone.


You can include NYG 1st rounder also but looking at Dak 3rd round and SF 7th. So 2 out of the 8 didn't draft their QB in the first round.

I suggest we try unconventional first; 2024 we may have the capital to go high on QB. Don't think we can get there in 2023 but who knows.


Jones ? Darn average besides ripping the Vikings twice. He isn't proven anything. 9 wins and they are set for the next 5? Cousins wins 13 and some want to release him and tank.

Dak is a turn over machine.

Purdy, he craps out they might flip to Brady next year, he is far from a stone cold lock for 5 years and Shanahan gets the bulk of the credit IMO.


1) SD is out of the playoffs.

2) Jones has been good this year w/o a clear #1 WR.

First rounders: NYG, KC, Buffalo, Cinn, Jax.
Second rounders: Philly
Third Rounders: Dallas
7th: SF

You don't have to go all in on a qb.


Now tell me how often late round QBs hit compared to early rounds.

Counting on an exception is no way to go.

Do you think Purdy was drafted as the QBOTF? I doubt Lynch expected him to even make the team.

Hell, I doubt we make the Playoffs this year with Purdy at QB. He's a great story, but SF has the talent and coaching to hide him as well as any team since the Dilfer Ravens.




ronhextall -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:11:16 AM)

We were discussing the final drive…

If Vikings score a TD..do you go for 2 points? Considering the defense was absolutely worthless.




Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:13:04 AM)

In 2019 Cousins was surrounded by Diggs, Thielen, Cook, a bad OL (Reiff, O'Neill, Kline... not the worst of that era), and a defense that was 5th in points allowed. He got his lone playoff win that year. Which is about right.




David Levine -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:13:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

Jones won 9 games with a much better defense.

Yup, he is better than Cousins who won 13

Makes sense to me.


Run back both teams next year and do you think we're still 4 games better than NY?

This was the strangest season I've ever seen. It's hard to put it into any kind of perspective.




Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:13:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

Which teams do you think are satisfied at QB for the next 5 years and where were those QB's drafted?

KC
Buffalo
Cinncy
San Diego
Jacksonville

They were all drafted damn high. The rest of the league is looking or at the very least would pick up the phone.


You can include NYG 1st rounder also but looking at Dak 3rd round and SF 7th. So 2 out of the 8 didn't draft their QB in the first round.

I suggest we try unconventional first; 2024 we may have the capital to go high on QB. Don't think we can get there in 2023 but who knows.


Jones ? Darn average besides ripping the Vikings twice. He isn't proven anything. 9 wins and they are set for the next 5? Cousins wins 13 and some want to release him and tank.

Dak is a turn over machine.

Purdy, he craps out they might flip to Brady next year, he is far from a stone cold lock for 5 years and Shanahan gets the bulk of the credit IMO.


1) SD is out of the playoffs.

2) Jones has been good this year w/o a clear #1 WR.

First rounders: NYG, KC, Buffalo, Cinn, Jax.
Second rounders: Philly
Third Rounders: Dallas
7th: SF

You don't have to go all in on a qb.


Now tell me how often late round QBs hit compared to early rounds.

Counting on an exception is no way to go.

Do you think Purdy was drafted as the QBOTF? I doubt Lynch expected him to even make the team.

Hell, I doubt we make the Playoffs this year with Purdy at QB. He's a great story, but SF has the talent and coaching to hide him as well as any team since the Dilfer Ravens.


Mostly because of Kirk here, no 2nd rounder, needing defense, etc. that I don't think they go all in on QBOTF until 2024 in the 1st round unless one drops. Draft 1 in the middle rounds.




Tom Sykes -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:14:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes
These people are pupae and KC is their fuzzy cocoon.


KC won us over the year. The defense side is a bigger concern. If you can't fix it you may as well blow it up. Expectations were for a top 10 offense and a defense being 15-20 and improving as season went on....second part never happened.

For me even with the last checkdown by the KC the defense was the deciding factor. They just couldn't stop anything and should have given up another TD to Slayton.

Sounds like they postponed the KOC end of year news conference until tomorrow.....some speculating a new DC already.

I can’t hear you Phil … the wind howling and all that as I trudge forward … good luck with sleepytime!




Murph -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:15:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

In 2019 Cousins was surrounded by Diggs, Thielen, Cook, a bad OL (Reiff, O'Neill, Kline... not the worst of that era), and a defense that was 5th in points allowed. He got his lone playoff win that year. Which is about right.



Ponder has a better Playoff record than Cousins for a fraction of the cap space.

Bring him back, lol




Murph -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:18:28 AM)

1 playoff win in 5 seasons when he was the missing piece. The team was set up except for QB.

What happened? A ton of excuses for Cousins.




ronhextall -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:18:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

Jones won 9 games with a much better defense.

Yup, he is better than Cousins who won 13

Makes sense to me.


Run back both teams next year and do you think we're still 4 games better than NY?

This was the strangest season I've ever seen. It's hard to put it into any kind of perspective.


I don’t think the Vikings make playoffs next year. Schedule is beyond brutal. KOC will really need to improve going forward. Likely a worse record next year, followed by a year with a rookie QB. How many coaches have a worsening record their first three years and keep their job?

They could win a muddy division if Rodgers leaves Green Bay.

Do I think the Giants are set for success with Jones as a big money QB? Nope. And that’s what matters. I think paying Jones big money screws them. The added bonus that they will also pay a running back big money. That never works out. Giants won’t be a playoff team next year. I expect Green Bay and Rams to bounce back.




David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:19:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

Jones won 9 games with a much better defense.

Yup, he is better than Cousins who won 13

Makes sense to me.


I don't look at it as a simple Jones vs. Cousins comparison. I look at the big picture. Jones' cap hits over the last four years were (rounded) $5, $6, $7, and $8 million. Cousins' were $29, $21, $31, and $31. So in each of those years you don't just get Jones but you get Jones + whatever the extra $24 million buys you which could be a star corner AND a star guard.


Problem with Jones...NYG didn't think enough of him to guarantee his last year (before a full year of Daboll). So there is that.
So if you go hypothetical the first 3 years are struggles with decent WR on his contract.


See I don't see that as a problem. They got a serviceable QB that wasn't a homerun. That allowed them to cut bait and keep trying. The strange wrinkle was that he produced in his fourth year under a new coach. This is also most definitley NOT a problem. They can resign him if they think he's a homerun with Daboll or they can simply move on. They are in the drivers seat. What's Jones' market value? Too high - goodbye. Unexpetedly low? Sweet - sign him!




Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:20:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes
These people are pupae and KC is their fuzzy cocoon.


KC won us over the year. The defense side is a bigger concern. If you can't fix it you may as well blow it up. Expectations were for a top 10 offense and a defense being 15-20 and improving as season went on....second part never happened.

For me even with the last checkdown by the KC the defense was the deciding factor. They just couldn't stop anything and should have given up another TD to Slayton.

Sounds like they postponed the KOC end of year news conference until tomorrow.....some speculating a new DC already.


And using the law of averages (not relying on a draft like the ~ 1974 Steelers) the defense isn't going to be fixed... not in the next year or two. Not much in the way of draft resources, on the wrong side of the cap, etc. Again, your vaunted cap space really isn't all that.

Hell, signing just your two generational talents next year will run upwards of $50 million.




David F. -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:21:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

Jones won 9 games with a much better defense.

Yup, he is better than Cousins who won 13

Makes sense to me.

Outside of Barkley he has almost no talent around him. He manufactured a win when it mattered. To me, that is the difference between him and Cousins. Jones laid his body on the line and gutted out a win. Cousins checked down on fourth down with the season on the line.

It's the difference between being a winner or a perennial brides maid.


Almost like you didn't watch the game. Cousins took hit after hit.


He could also, you know, move his feet a little bit from time to time. Pocket awareness is a thing.




Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:27:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

Jones won 9 games with a much better defense.

Yup, he is better than Cousins who won 13

Makes sense to me.


I don't look at it as a simple Jones vs. Cousins comparison. I look at the big picture. Jones' cap hits over the last four years were (rounded) $5, $6, $7, and $8 million. Cousins' were $29, $21, $31, and $31. So in each of those years you don't just get Jones but you get Jones + whatever the extra $24 million buys you which could be a star corner AND a star guard.


Problem with Jones...NYG didn't think enough of him to guarantee his last year (before a full year of Daboll). So there is that.
So if you go hypothetical the first 3 years are struggles with decent WR on his contract.


See I don't see that as a problem. They got a serviceable QB that wasn't a homerun. That allowed them to cut bait and keep trying. The strange wrinkle was that he produced in his fourth year under a new coach. This is also most definitley NOT a problem. They can resign him if they think he's a homerun with Daboll or they can simply move on. They are in the drivers seat. What's Jones' market value? Too high - goodbye. Unexpetedly low? Sweet - sign him!


Right there is an example of a startling difference in logic, smarts, and common sense.

And the Giants have scraps for WR. Cousins has had Diggs, a prime Thielen, and now a couple of 'generational' talents.




drviking -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:31:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

We were discussing the final drive…

If Vikings score a TD..do you go for 2 points? Considering the defense was absolutely worthless.



i would, but cousins would probably throw it to the one yard line




Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:31:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

Jones won 9 games with a much better defense.

Yup, he is better than Cousins who won 13

Makes sense to me.


I don't look at it as a simple Jones vs. Cousins comparison. I look at the big picture. Jones' cap hits over the last four years were (rounded) $5, $6, $7, and $8 million. Cousins' were $29, $21, $31, and $31. So in each of those years you don't just get Jones but you get Jones + whatever the extra $24 million buys you which could be a star corner AND a star guard.


Problem with Jones...NYG didn't think enough of him to guarantee his last year (before a full year of Daboll). So there is that.
So if you go hypothetical the first 3 years are struggles with decent WR on his contract.


See I don't see that as a problem. They got a serviceable QB that wasn't a homerun. That allowed them to cut bait and keep trying. The strange wrinkle was that he produced in his fourth year under a new coach. This is also most definitley NOT a problem. They can resign him if they think he's a homerun with Daboll or they can simply move on. They are in the drivers seat. What's Jones' market value? Too high - goodbye. Unexpetedly low? Sweet - sign him!


Right there is an example of a startling difference in logic, smarts, and common sense.

And the Giants have scraps for WR. Cousins has had Diggs, a prime Thielen, and now a couple of 'generational' talents.


Weird...Giants most likely done in a week also. So would that make your philosphy any better?




Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:32:06 AM)

The past couple of years have highlighted the incredible advantage of having a mobile QB. We continually give big buck 100% guaranteed contracts to a QB more suited for 1993, not 2023.




drviking -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:33:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

Jones won 9 games with a much better defense.

Yup, he is better than Cousins who won 13

Makes sense to me.

Outside of Barkley he has almost no talent around him. He manufactured a win when it mattered. To me, that is the difference between him and Cousins. Jones laid his body on the line and gutted out a win. Cousins checked down on fourth down with the season on the line.

It's the difference between being a winner or a perennial brides maid.


Almost like you didn't watch the game. Cousins took hit after hit.



agreed, cousins would set franchise records against our defense, perfect pockets, minimal pressure...if you thought Jones looked good, Cousins would look all time




Bill Johanesen -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:34:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

Jones won 9 games with a much better defense.

Yup, he is better than Cousins who won 13

Makes sense to me.


I don't look at it as a simple Jones vs. Cousins comparison. I look at the big picture. Jones' cap hits over the last four years were (rounded) $5, $6, $7, and $8 million. Cousins' were $29, $21, $31, and $31. So in each of those years you don't just get Jones but you get Jones + whatever the extra $24 million buys you which could be a star corner AND a star guard.


Problem with Jones...NYG didn't think enough of him to guarantee his last year (before a full year of Daboll). So there is that.
So if you go hypothetical the first 3 years are struggles with decent WR on his contract.


See I don't see that as a problem. They got a serviceable QB that wasn't a homerun. That allowed them to cut bait and keep trying. The strange wrinkle was that he produced in his fourth year under a new coach. This is also most definitley NOT a problem. They can resign him if they think he's a homerun with Daboll or they can simply move on. They are in the drivers seat. What's Jones' market value? Too high - goodbye. Unexpetedly low? Sweet - sign him!


Right there is an example of a startling difference in logic, smarts, and common sense.

And the Giants have scraps for WR. Cousins has had Diggs, a prime Thielen, and now a couple of 'generational' talents.


Weird...Giants most likely done in a week also. So would that make your philosphy any better?


Yes, on one hand the Giants have what is likely an ascending QB that they have the option to keep or have walk. On the other, we have a descending QB who the football world is mocking for an absolutely stupid decision to end the season to whom we are stuck with.




drviking -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:38:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes
These people are pupae and KC is their fuzzy cocoon.


KC won us over the year. The defense side is a bigger concern. If you can't fix it you may as well blow it up. Expectations were for a top 10 offense and a defense being 15-20 and improving as season went on....second part never happened.

For me even with the last checkdown by the KC the defense was the deciding factor. They just couldn't stop anything and should have given up another TD to Slayton.

Sounds like they postponed the KOC end of year news conference until tomorrow.....some speculating a new DC already.



that is exactly what we needed to happen to be a true contender, and you are exactly right on the assessment


they tried their 'last dance'.....and came up short

now we pay the piper for a one year late rebuild


I enjoyed the year, so I cant be too mad about going for the last dance...it worked WAY more than i expected, but I am ready to see what Kwesi can do going forward (first draft was sketchy, but some pretty nice additions to build from)




Phil Riewer -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:42:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

Jones won 9 games with a much better defense.

Yup, he is better than Cousins who won 13

Makes sense to me.


I don't look at it as a simple Jones vs. Cousins comparison. I look at the big picture. Jones' cap hits over the last four years were (rounded) $5, $6, $7, and $8 million. Cousins' were $29, $21, $31, and $31. So in each of those years you don't just get Jones but you get Jones + whatever the extra $24 million buys you which could be a star corner AND a star guard.


Problem with Jones...NYG didn't think enough of him to guarantee his last year (before a full year of Daboll). So there is that.
So if you go hypothetical the first 3 years are struggles with decent WR on his contract.


See I don't see that as a problem. They got a serviceable QB that wasn't a homerun. That allowed them to cut bait and keep trying. The strange wrinkle was that he produced in his fourth year under a new coach. This is also most definitley NOT a problem. They can resign him if they think he's a homerun with Daboll or they can simply move on. They are in the drivers seat. What's Jones' market value? Too high - goodbye. Unexpetedly low? Sweet - sign him!


Right there is an example of a startling difference in logic, smarts, and common sense.

And the Giants have scraps for WR. Cousins has had Diggs, a prime Thielen, and now a couple of 'generational' talents.


Cap hit for 2022 Devante Adams this year. 2022 12 Million. 2023 14 Million
Cap hit for 2020 George Kittle 5/75 2020 5.8 million 2021 5.45 million

Fairly low cap hits. TJ set to make 9.5 million next year; JJ 4 million.




drviking -> RE: General Vikes Talk (1/17/2023 11:45:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

Jones won 9 games with a much better defense.

Yup, he is better than Cousins who won 13

Makes sense to me.


I don't look at it as a simple Jones vs. Cousins comparison. I look at the big picture. Jones' cap hits over the last four years were (rounded) $5, $6, $7, and $8 million. Cousins' were $29, $21, $31, and $31. So in each of those years you don't just get Jones but you get Jones + whatever the extra $24 million buys you which could be a star corner AND a star guard.


Problem with Jones...NYG didn't think enough of him to guarantee his last year (before a full year of Daboll). So there is that.
So if you go hypothetical the first 3 years are struggles with decent WR on his contract.


See I don't see that as a problem. They got a serviceable QB that wasn't a homerun. That allowed them to cut bait and keep trying. The strange wrinkle was that he produced in his fourth year under a new coach. This is also most definitley NOT a problem. They can resign him if they think he's a homerun with Daboll or they can simply move on. They are in the drivers seat. What's Jones' market value? Too high - goodbye. Unexpetedly low? Sweet - sign him!


and... if you want you can rent under a franchise tag, or trade under franchise tag etc....

thats what i would have done with Flacco after the super bowl


or if you let him leave with a big contract, you may get 3rd round draft compensation




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