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General Vikes Talk - Archived 9/3/19

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General Vikes Talk - Archived 9/3/19 - 11/29/2018 7:03:30 AM   
Toby Stumbo


Posts: 18365
Joined: 12/11/2006
From: Central Minnesota
Status: offline 		Lets speed up the thread a little shall we.

GO VIKES!

< Message edited by Toby Stumbo -- 9/3/2019 7:49:30 AM >

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GO VIKES!
Post #: 1
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 7:21:51 AM   
bstinger


Posts: 16415
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: offline 		SKOL!

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Post #: 2
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 7:34:18 AM   
ebergste

 

Posts: 596
Joined: 8/25/2007
Status: offline 		This is partially why I seldom post here. I usually get around to a post and then it is buried either with a new thread or a why Brad, defense starts at the corners, is wrong event that goes on for 4 pages. Could we at least bring the last page from the old thread to the new one. Sorry minor complaint I know but it is annoying.
Post #: 3
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 9:35:21 AM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 26286
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline 		quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: ebergste

So I just rewatched the Green Bay game on the condensed version. I love doing this because it better simulates what the coaches are going through. When you have the "TV" speed of the game it feels like a long time between plays but when you are calling the shots that time is much shorter considering all that has to be accounted for. Overall I think our play calling is very good, nice variety of pass and run, and good and creative designs for plays. I also think Cousins is very underrated here on this site. The amount of times he deals with a shrinking pocket and makes a good decision are impressive. That shrinking pocket is something every QB deals with but it rattles some because as it shrinks the amount of time you have if someone breaks through decreases as well.

The area that we are the weakest in, and which hampers our offense IMHO, is gap scheme run plays. When we have success of the ground we are zone running. This allows our lineman to get pushed around a bit but as long as they are getting horizontal movement on the DL a gap will open up the RB has a shot. When we gap scheme and need vertical push we simply don't get it most of the time. Knowing this, I know shocking that GB has some coaches who pay attention as well, GB was running a 5 front most of the game. This eliminated many of the lanes that are created by horizontal movement and stifled our running game even further. There are two good ways to beat a 5 front focused on internal gaps. The best is hit the edges which the Vikings did. RB screens and swing passes, Jet sweet runs etc. The other is to overpower at the point of attack and gap run on internal runs which the Vikings can't really do very well. The good thing is the 5 front also limited GB on their pass defense options.

By contrast the Vikings run a four front almost exclusively. They also gap attack with the DL so they create vertical seams as they rush. GB seemed to run a lot of gap runs and when they picked the right gap they were pretty successful. Zimmer's D seems to be willing to concede those occasional 6-8 yard runs, which frustrate the crap out of me personally, but fit his scheme. He trusts his CB's and safeties tackling to prevent the big gains and seems to like what it allows him to do in coverage enough to let the gap run hurt them a bit. You'll notice the Vikings are pretty strong against RB swing passes and WR screens because they have one less guy devoted to the middle so can cover the edges better.

None of this is 100% of the time but just general observations.


This is just so cool! Please post more often with your analysis. Don't be a stranger.



Agreed. I always like to be around someone smarter than myself Post gave insight into the trouble we've have had running on short down and distance.

One favor to ask though. Can you call Zim and Flip and get them to change their GD approach??



To be honest not sure what one would ask them to change. Defensive wise, Zim is 100 times smarter than I am and the defensive rating would indicate that his approach has far more upside then down.

On the short yardage thing. We just need bigger/stronger linemen for this type of play. The downside of zone and outside runs are they are slower to develop. When teams anticipates a run on short yardage and you can't "push em back" you have to hope the gap they shoot isn't the first path of the running back or you get those holy crap the defender almost took the hand-off plays. And there is the simple reality that a short yardage stopping defensive formation is going to shorten the time in the pocket for a QB so pass plays have to be quicker as well. So this creates a tight man coverage run blitz look, or what we used to call the Adrian Peterson defense. So your best options are to move the QB, to create more time, with a rollout type action or again hammer a single gap with a double team, which we aren't very good at. I think Cousins is capable of rollout looks but it isn't his preference. The rollout puts stress on the outside defenders (of which there are fewer because of the inside rush control) so that defender has to choose between QB rush and pass protect, much like the Theilen TD in the Greenbay game. Risk is nasty shots to QB as he runs.

Going back to the pocket presence of Cousins from the first post. One thing our linemen do a good job of is something we tell our highs school linemen is called getting whooped slowly. They lose ground vs their defenders but they do it in a way that forces the defender to go through them not around them. They also do it at the same speed and together so there isn't a quick and uneven pocket. The pocket just slowly collapses. And Cousins is awesome at stepping into that pocket and trusting the speed of its collapse to let him throw the ball. If you watch on film he often releases the ball and his arm almost hits his O-lineman in the helmet because he is stepping into that closing pocket. I'm looking at it with high school coach eyes but I would love to have a QB that can ignore the collapse that well and keep his eyes downfield.

Here you go...:)

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Post #: 4
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 9:58:47 AM   
SoMnFan


Posts: 94902
Status: offline 		ESPN listed each teams best/worst seasons



Minnesota Vikings

Current season: 6-4-1 (26th-best of 58 seasons in franchise history)
Best season: 1998 (15-1)
Worst season: 1984 (3-13)

The 1998 team rates out better than any of the four Super Bowl-losing Vikings teams from 1969-76 under Bud Grant. Unlike those teams, though, the Vikings fell just short in the NFC Championship Game in 1998, blowing a 27-17 fourth-quarter lead and losing 30-27 in a game where kicker Gary Anderson -- who had gone 35-for-35 on field goals during the regular season -- missed a 38-yarder that would have sealed the game just before the two-minute warning. That team, which featured Cris Carter and rookie wideout Randy Moss combining for 29 receiving touchdowns, has the 10th-best offense since 1960 by standardized score.
Post #: 5
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 10:07:20 AM   
bstinger


Posts: 16415
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

ESPN listed each teams best/worst seasons



Minnesota Vikings

Current season: 6-4-1 (26th-best of 58 seasons in franchise history)
Best season: 1998 (15-1)
Worst season: 1984 (3-13)

The 1998 team rates out better than any of the four Super Bowl-losing Vikings teams from 1969-76 under Bud Grant. Unlike those teams, though, the Vikings fell just short in the NFC Championship Game in 1998, blowing a 27-17 fourth-quarter lead and losing 30-27 in a game where kicker Gary Anderson -- who had gone 35-for-35 on field goals during the regular season -- missed a 38-yarder that would have sealed the game just before the two-minute warning. That team, which featured Cris Carter and rookie wideout Randy Moss combining for 29 receiving touchdowns, has the 10th-best offense since 1960 by standardized score.




_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan
Post #: 6
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 11:12:51 AM   
marty


Posts: 12589
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline 		Pager, while I would guess most of us prefer taking a shot on 2nd and 1, I do as well, but I was actually hoping there the Vikes would do what they did, and pick up the 1st down.

It's important to be unpredictable, and next time defenders will respect a sneak, which might give that extra second to take a shot and get it.

I was expecting the Vikes to take a shot on the 2nd and 1 you mentioned, it would have been predictable, and I think a very good chance it would have fallen incomplete, or deflected by the defender.

And if that had happened, I am not sure I like the Vikes running up the gut on 3rd and 1 against the Packers. The Vikes have struggled with it lately, and the Packers have been good all season at stuffing short yardage plays, so the QB sneak on 2nd down, in this case, I think was a good call.

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SKOL to the BOWL !!!
Post #: 7
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 11:29:52 AM   
ebergste

 

Posts: 596
Joined: 8/25/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks, you're the best.
Post #: 8
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 11:46:53 AM   
bstinger


Posts: 16415
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Pager, while I would guess most of us prefer taking a shot on 2nd and 1, I do as well, but I was actually hoping there the Vikes would do what they did, and pick up the 1st down.

It's important to be unpredictable, and next time defenders will respect a sneak, which might give that extra second to take a shot and get it.

I was expecting the Vikes to take a shot on the 2nd and 1 you mentioned, it would have been predictable, and I think a very good chance it would have fallen incomplete, or deflected by the defender.

And if that had happened, I am not sure I like the Vikes running up the gut on 3rd and 1 against the Packers. The Vikes have struggled with it lately, and the Packers have been good all season at stuffing short yardage plays, so the QB sneak on 2nd down, in this case, I think was a good call.

Agree. At that point in the game we had yet to get a first down. They were giving us one with wide tackle splits. I told my family when I saw the D line configured the way they were that "I bet Kirk Sneaks it". I'm sure it wasn't even a called play, he just saw the free first down and took it. Other points in the game, I'd rather see a shot, but we were dysfunctional on the first 2 drives and just needed to get things moving. The drive resulted in a TD.

_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan
Post #: 9
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 11:51:49 AM   
kevinemmer


Posts: 4644
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Bozeman, MT
Status: offline 		And Cousins is awesome at stepping into that pocket and trusting the speed of its collapse to let him throw the ball. If you watch on film he often releases the ball and his arm almost hits his O-lineman in the helmet because he is stepping into that closing pocket. I'm looking at it with high school coach eyes but I would love to have a QB that can ignore the collapse that well and keep his eyes downfield.

Agree on this, but it often freaks me out; I keep hoping he won't bust his hand on someone's helmet (please no!).

Probably part of reason he has had so many batted passes this year, Last Gasp Kirk has the pocket collapsing around him and the D-men are close enough to wreck throwing lanes with their hands up.
Post #: 10
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 12:38:59 PM   
Ricky J


Posts: 18174
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline 		Vikings @ NE Sun. 12/2 3:25p

Vikings @ Sea Mon. 12/10 7:25p

- anyone have confidence in coming out of this 2-0?
- will you be ok with 1-1?
- does anyone believe we will be 0-2 after these two?
Post #: 11
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 12:42:43 PM   
ronhextall


Posts: 6271
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Vikings @ NE Sun. 12/2 3:25p

Vikings @ Sea Mon. 12/10 7:25p

- anyone have confidence in coming out of this 2-0?
- will you be ok with 1-1?
- does anyone believe we will be 0-2 after these two?


I would be happy with 1-1. Still likely control their own destiny for playoffs.

0-2, Look out. Likely need help to make playoffs.
Post #: 12
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 12:44:57 PM   
SoMnFan


Posts: 94902
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Vikings @ NE Sun. 12/2 3:25p

Vikings @ Sea Mon. 12/10 7:25p

- anyone have confidence in coming out of this 2-0?
- will you be ok with 1-1?
- does anyone believe we will be 0-2 after these two?


I would be happy with 1-1. Still likely control their own destiny for playoffs.

0-2, Look out. Likely need help to make playoffs.

same
GOTTA have one
Post #: 13
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 12:45:25 PM   
Ricky J


Posts: 18174
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline 		At the beginning of the year I really wanted to go to this Sea game. It would of fit perfectly into what I've been doing traveling around the last few years but taking the personal days that I did to see my sailor graduate from boot camp and MA school I burned up too many personal days
Post #: 14
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 1:00:18 PM   
SoMnFan


Posts: 94902
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

At the beginning of the year I really wanted to go to this Sea game. It would of fit perfectly into what I've been doing traveling around the last few years but taking the personal days that I did to see my sailor graduate from boot camp and MA school I burned up too many personal days


Sounds like some poor clock-management, Ricky!
Come on man!
Post #: 15
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 1:13:20 PM   
ratoppenheimer


Posts: 9305
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: online 		.
.
Chris Tomasson@christomasson
#Vikings Mike Zimmer said Sheldon Richardson has proven himself to be a long-term guy after some concerns before signing him. “He had some things with the Jets that weren’t positive but since he’s been here he’s been real good as far as studying in meetings and paying attention."

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the journey...is paradise.
Post #: 16
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 1:38:08 PM   
jbusse

 

Posts: 1308
Joined: 9/11/2013
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinemmer

And Cousins is awesome at stepping into that pocket and trusting the speed of its collapse to let him throw the ball. If you watch on film he often releases the ball and his arm almost hits his O-lineman in the helmet because he is stepping into that closing pocket. I'm looking at it with high school coach eyes but I would love to have a QB that can ignore the collapse that well and keep his eyes downfield.

Agree on this, but it often freaks me out; I keep hoping he won't bust his hand on someone's helmet (please no!).

Probably part of reason he has had so many batted passes this year, Last Gasp Kirk has the pocket collapsing around him and the D-men are close enough to wreck throwing lanes with their hands up.

That wasn't a skill that Christian Ponder ever mastered.
Post #: 17
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 6:58:22 PM   
marty


Posts: 12589
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline 		I expect the Vikes to lose the next 2, they will probably be outcoached and will lose 2 close games.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!
Post #: 18
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 7:37:43 PM   
Pager


Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Pager, while I would guess most of us prefer taking a shot on 2nd and 1, I do as well, but I was actually hoping there the Vikes would do what they did, and pick up the 1st down.

It's important to be unpredictable, and next time defenders will respect a sneak, which might give that extra second to take a shot and get it.

I was expecting the Vikes to take a shot on the 2nd and 1 you mentioned, it would have been predictable, and I think a very good chance it would have fallen incomplete, or deflected by the defender.

And if that had happened, I am not sure I like the Vikes running up the gut on 3rd and 1 against the Packers. The Vikes have struggled with it lately, and the Packers have been good all season at stuffing short yardage plays, so the QB sneak on 2nd down, in this case, I think was a good call.

Agree. At that point in the game we had yet to get a first down. They were giving us one with wide tackle splits. I told my family when I saw the D line configured the way they were that "I bet Kirk Sneaks it". I'm sure it wasn't even a called play, he just saw the free first down and took it. Other points in the game, I'd rather see a shot, but we were dysfunctional on the first 2 drives and just needed to get things moving. The drive resulted in a TD.



How many times on short down and distance have we taken a shot vs a running (granted this was probably the first QB sneak). How many times on 2nd and short have we taken a deep shot. I been vocal about Cousins taking off more regardless of QB sneaks.

I don't know the answer, and don't have the time and energy to look it up. But I would it's probably more predictable that we aren't taking a deep shot than running,

But thats only my opinion.

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Left picking up the pieces.
Post #: 19
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 9:00:21 PM   
bstinger


Posts: 16415
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Pager, while I would guess most of us prefer taking a shot on 2nd and 1, I do as well, but I was actually hoping there the Vikes would do what they did, and pick up the 1st down.

It's important to be unpredictable, and next time defenders will respect a sneak, which might give that extra second to take a shot and get it.

I was expecting the Vikes to take a shot on the 2nd and 1 you mentioned, it would have been predictable, and I think a very good chance it would have fallen incomplete, or deflected by the defender.

And if that had happened, I am not sure I like the Vikes running up the gut on 3rd and 1 against the Packers. The Vikes have struggled with it lately, and the Packers have been good all season at stuffing short yardage plays, so the QB sneak on 2nd down, in this case, I think was a good call.

Agree. At that point in the game we had yet to get a first down. They were giving us one with wide tackle splits. I told my family when I saw the D line configured the way they were that "I bet Kirk Sneaks it". I'm sure it wasn't even a called play, he just saw the free first down and took it. Other points in the game, I'd rather see a shot, but we were dysfunctional on the first 2 drives and just needed to get things moving. The drive resulted in a TD.



How many times on short down and distance have we taken a shot vs a running (granted this was probably the first QB sneak). How many times on 2nd and short have we taken a deep shot. I been vocal about Cousins taking off more regardless of QB sneaks.

I don't know the answer, and don't have the time and energy to look it up. But I would it's probably more predictable that we aren't taking a deep shot than running,

But thats only my opinion.

That reply had nothing to do with my post. Should've been posted on Marty's post. In the end, the drive was successful, so no use second guessing it.

_____________________________

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--twinsfan
Post #: 20
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/29/2018 9:41:18 PM   
hagar

 

Posts: 2756
Joined: 3/3/2014
From: fresburg, ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Vikings @ NE Sun. 12/2 3:25p

Vikings @ Sea Mon. 12/10 7:25p

- anyone have confidence in coming out of this 2-0?
- will you be ok with 1-1?
- does anyone believe we will be 0-2 after these two?


If they can keep getting Cook out in space like they did against the packers and
Cousins runs occasionally when it opens up for him like against the packers then
I believe we have a legitimate chance to win both games. The defense also will
have to play up to its potential. Of course, turnovers could ruin everything, so,
they have to play mistake free football or at least win the turnover battle. It's
absolutely possible to win both, but, we can't be spectators like against Chicago.
I will not be happy with 1-1

< Message edited by hagar -- 11/29/2018 9:42:20 PM >
Post #: 21
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/30/2018 6:48:10 AM   
Todd M

 

Posts: 39703
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		I think there is a good chance we take both these games and settle more into the look of a top 5 team capable of winning it all.
Post #: 22
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/30/2018 7:20:50 AM   
Todd M

 

Posts: 39703
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		I knew I'd have to deal with them slobbering over Dallas this morning. Are they a SB team? blah blah blah...No. I would not be nervous one bit if we had to travel to play them in the playoffs.
Post #: 23
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/30/2018 7:29:56 AM   
Todd M

 

Posts: 39703
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		Ref should be fined for watching the clear targeting play and not throwing a flag.
Post #: 24
RE: General Vikes Talk - 11/30/2018 8:29:08 AM   
SoMnFan


Posts: 94902
Status: offline 		--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Minnesota Vikings

FPI playoff odds: 68.7 percent

Salary cap on IR: $6,607,765 (3.6 percent of total cap, 7 players)

Key players on IR: S Andrew Sendejo, G Nick Easton. Sendejo was placed on IR on Nov. 27 and is eligible to return to practice on Jan. 8. If the Vikings are still in the playoffs, Sendejo could be back to help this team get ready for a Super Bowl run. Easton was placed on IR in training camp after undergoing neck surgery and is out for the year.

Key injured players not on IR: CB Xavier Rhodes has dealt with a myriad of health issues this season but has only missed one game. TE David Morgan injured his knee before the bye, which caused him to miss the Bears and Packers games. His injury is not expected to keep him out for the rest of the season, though he might still need a week or two before he's ready to return. Then there's WR Adam Thielen. Despite being limited with lower back and calf injuries every week of practice following Minnesota's Week 9 bye, he has yet to miss any playing time.

Why it matters: So much of the Vikings' success last season was predicated off not dealing with constant injuries, especially on the defensive side of the ball where all 11 starters played in the NFC Championship Game. Minnesota has experienced more injuries this year, especially in positions where the team is already thin, like on the offensive line. Right now, the Vikings are in a good spot, where none of the players listed on the Week 13 injury report seem like a real danger to miss an extended period of time, especially going into the playoffs. -- Courtney Cronin
Post #: 25
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