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RE: NFL Draft 2020

 
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RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 3:59:32 PM   
Trekgeekscott


Posts: 38456
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

SKOR North is expecting Cleveland to play guard this year. So for all those who wanted us to draft a guard early we did. If they got it right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFm7g9WRrYY


I'm not on board for him playing at guard. I would rather see Reiff play at guard than Cleveland. Will he be ready this season to start? Good question. My guess is that he won't start game one, but before the season ends he will. It's just a guess. Who knows!



It will be just like O'Neill. Wont start there but a few games in, due to injury or pathetic play whatever, he'll get a chance and overachieve what the coaches expect....and the rest will be history.

_____________________________

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Post #: 3801
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 4:10:44 PM   
kgdabom

 

Posts: 33625
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

SKOR North is expecting Cleveland to play guard this year. So for all those who wanted us to draft a guard early we did. If they got it right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFm7g9WRrYY


I'm not on board for him playing at guard. I would rather see Reiff play at guard than Cleveland. Will he be ready this season to start? Good question. My guess is that he won't start game one, but before the season ends he will. It's just a guess. Who knows!



It will be just like O'Neill. Wont start there but a few games in, due to injury or pathetic play whatever, he'll get a chance and overachieve what the coaches expect....and the rest will be history.

I like the way you think.

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."
Post #: 3802
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 4:17:27 PM   
The Happy Norseman

 

Posts: 758
Joined: 12/2/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

WAR doesn't make a lot of sense in either sport. It amounts to deriving a context free value based on crunching context loaded numbers. It is valid in the sense that players with good stats will have a good WAR. As far as being an accurate method of ranking individual individual players or ranking the importance of one position vs another, not so much.


It was a pretty interesting study, although far from a conclusive report that should reconfigure your viewpoint on everything we know about football. It was fascinating to see how much, or how little, difference playing a backup had in some positions and not others. The more interesting part of the analysis was how small the difference was on defense. This is all really important in a capped league because generally you should not put in big salary cap dollars on Running Back, IOL, cornerbacks (defense starts at the corners?) and Safety by these numbers and spending your money or draft capital on offense, especially QB, WR, TE and Tackles seems to make the most improvement. Some of it was obvious, like starting QBs are super valuable, but the relative lack of importance of any one player on defense being out was very interesting, especially in how little negative impact having a starting Cornerback out was.


Using WAR to compare NFL player positions might have some benefit i.e. comparing LG "a" to LG "b", but using it to compare the "value" of completely different positions doesn't square with the reality of the NFL. We've all seen what happens when a team's starting corner goes down and is replaced by the inferior player. The opposing QB relentlessly attacks that player, usually with a lot of success. Conversely, we've rarely seen a team's offense suddenly become stagnant when their starting TE is replaced by a backup. If "value" is judged by which player has the most impact on his team's ability to execute it's game plan, then these WAR values don't align with what we've all witnessed on the football field.

_____________________________

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Post #: 3803
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 4:23:19 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 27588
Status: offline
In return for Diggs and two 7th rounders (one to Bills, one to Ravens) we got:

- Jefferson
- 2021 4th from Bills
- 2021 4th from Bears
- 2021 5th from Ravens
- Willekes

If the Bears and Bills are middle of the pack and the Ravens a top team, the 2021 picks equate to about #20 in the 3rd.
Post #: 3804
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 4:25:58 PM   
TJSweens


Posts: 44350
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

In return for Diggs and two 7th rounders (one to Bills, one to Ravens) we got:

- Jefferson
- 2021 4th from Bills
- 2021 4th from Bears
- 2021 5th from Ravens
- Willekes

If the Bears and Bills are middle of the pack and the Ravens a top team, the 2021 picks equate to about #20 in the 3rd.

Damn! We can turn those into a boat load of 2021 7th round picks.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 3805
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 4:28:17 PM   
unome

 

Posts: 985
Joined: 5/7/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: unome

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

WAR doesn't make a lot of sense in either sport. It amounts to deriving a context free value based on crunching context loaded numbers. It is valid in the sense that players with good stats will have a good WAR. As far as being an accurate method of ranking individual individual players or ranking the importance of one position vs another, not so much.


It was a pretty interesting study, although far from a conclusive report that should reconfigure your viewpoint on everything we know about football. It was fascinating to see how much, or how little, difference playing a backup had in some positions and not others. The more interesting part of the analysis was how small the difference was on defense. This is all really important in a capped league because generally you should not put in big salary cap dollars on Running Back, IOL, cornerbacks (defense starts at the corners?) and Safety by these numbers and spending your money or draft capital on offense, especially QB, WR, TE and Tackles seems to make the most improvement. Some of it was obvious, like starting QBs are super valuable, but the relative lack of importance of any one player on defense being out was very interesting, especially in how little negative impact having a starting Cornerback out was.


Using WAR to compare NFL player positions might have some benefit i.e. comparing LG "a" to LG "b", but using it to compare the "value" of completely different positions doesn't square with the reality of the NFL. We've all seen what happens when a team's starting corner goes down and is replaced by the inferior player. The opposing QB relentlessly attacks that player, usually with a lot of success. Conversely, we've rarely seen a team's offense suddenly become stagnant when their starting TE is replaced by a backup. If "value" is judged by which player has the most impact on his team's ability to execute it's game plan, then these WAR values don't align with what we've all witnessed on the football field.


I am not saying the results are unassailably true, I would have to believe in the unimpeachable validity of WAR and the ability to isolate the variability of using a replacement player to do so and this is not what I believe. However, if the value of a starting TE being out had little value on a team or a starting CB being out had a big effect on a team, wouldn't the data show it? And I did not read every page of the study so I may have missed this, but maybe you have touched upon a different effect that may not have been measured at all in the study. What happens when a Cornerback, or any position, goes out in the middle of a game? Since the game plan would not have been developed for that player, the effect of this injury replacement could well be higher than just using a replacement starter in the game due to injury or suspension. Plus, a third Cornerback is practically a starter anyway so maybe starting a third corner in the lineup is not a big issue, but then when the normal 4th and 5th corners come in, this is a problem, although no one that would be measured by this study.
Post #: 3806
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 4:38:53 PM   
unome

 

Posts: 985
Joined: 5/7/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

In return for Diggs and two 7th rounders (one to Bills, one to Ravens) we got:

- Jefferson
- 2021 4th from Bills
- 2021 4th from Bears
- 2021 5th from Ravens
- Willekes

If the Bears and Bills are middle of the pack and the Ravens a top team, the 2021 picks equate to about #20 in the 3rd.

Damn! We can turn those into a boat load of 2021 7th round picks.


According to the draft chart, if one of the 4th rounders is in the middle of the round, you could have traded it for the last 40 picks of the draft. Every seventh rounder this year except the first one. Reading this back, I would probably rather take a shot on 40 7th rounders than on one 4th rounder, although training camp may be unmanageable. But what a practice squad you would have! In reality, I think seventh rounders are a bit more valuable than this based on how they are seemingly valued in trades.
Post #: 3807
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 5:04:39 PM   
thebigo


Posts: 28251
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

In return for Diggs and two 7th rounders (one to Bills, one to Ravens) we got:

- Jefferson
- 2021 4th from Bills
- 2021 4th from Bears
- 2021 5th from Ravens
- Willekes

If the Bears and Bills are middle of the pack and the Ravens a top team, the 2021 picks equate to about #20 in the 3rd.


Or borderline 2022 1st rounder
Post #: 3808
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 5:10:45 PM   
thebigo


Posts: 28251
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

SKOR North is expecting Cleveland to play guard this year. So for all those who wanted us to draft a guard early we did. If they got it right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFm7g9WRrYY


I'm not on board for him playing at guard. I would rather see Reiff play at guard than Cleveland. Will he be ready this season to start? Good question. My guess is that he won't start game one, but before the season ends he will. It's just a guess. Who knows!

His traits and skills project well at guard. However the down side is if LT is his eventual position, and I think it is, then he loses a year of tackle development. Looking at the big picture it is probably best to only have him play tackle and probably to start him this year to take his lumps and learn. However, playing him at guard could be the best move for this season.


Problem is, LT lumps = QB lumps
Post #: 3809
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 5:18:31 PM   
thebigo


Posts: 28251
Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Reason the Vikings like Cleveland:

7. EZRA CLEVELAND, BOISE STATE
Draft Board Rank: 57th
Cleveland was one of the biggest draft risers with his performance at the Combine, and for good reason. The track record for guys with his sort of movement skills is very good. He posted the best three-cone (7.26) and best short-shuttle (4.46) of any offensive lineman in attendance to go along with a 4.93-second 40. Only two tackles drafted in the first round over the past 15 years have bested both Cleveland’s cone and shuttle: Joe Staley and Anthony Castonzo.

The athleticism would be one thing if it didn’t translate to a football field, but Cleveland has earned pass-protection grades in the 80s for three straight seasons. The fact that he was losing at all against some of the competition he faced is concerning, though, and he doesn’t play nearly as strong as his 30 bench reps would suggest.

One thing I do like about Cleveland ... as mentioned above, he is putting time in the weightroom: the 30 lifts were 5th best at the combine – he's not just going through the motions [in the weightroom].



Yeah, I've never been that impressed with those guys in the weight room just going through the motions. I mean c'mon, at least lift a bar without any weights on it, this lifting air thing is just silly!

Bigo you really do take snarkiness to extremes.


That wasn't really snark. That was without the
Post #: 3810
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 5:21:35 PM   
thebigo


Posts: 28251
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

No Viking olineman has even made a pro bowl appearance in the last 7 seasons.

I think O'Neal was deserving last season but nonetheless that's pretty telling when you consider the number of players that back out of it.

O'Neill has not been giving up sacks, but for whatever reason got the same PFF grade as Reiff. I don't think he's as good as many of us think he is.


Umm... that's what we like about him...
Give me some more guys who "aren't that good" but "don't give up sacks".

Not giving up sacks is a good thing. I think he gives up more pressures than one would expect and maybe he doesn't do well in the running game.


Is that based on 'anything'?

I'm not watching him on every play. I pay far more attention to the QB RBs, WRs. PFF is watching him on every play and came up with the average score of 71 despite the ridiculously low sacks given up. So I was guessing it was because he gave up pressures and they considered him mediocre in run blocking.


So when you said "I think" you weren't talking about what you think, you were talking about what you think they were thinking.
Post #: 3811
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 5:24:25 PM   
kgdabom

 

Posts: 33625
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

SKOR North is expecting Cleveland to play guard this year. So for all those who wanted us to draft a guard early we did. If they got it right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFm7g9WRrYY


I'm not on board for him playing at guard. I would rather see Reiff play at guard than Cleveland. Will he be ready this season to start? Good question. My guess is that he won't start game one, but before the season ends he will. It's just a guess. Who knows!

His traits and skills project well at guard. However the down side is if LT is his eventual position, and I think it is, then he loses a year of tackle development. Looking at the big picture it is probably best to only have him play tackle and probably to start him this year to take his lumps and learn. However, playing him at guard could be the best move for this season.


Problem is, LT lumps = QB lumps

Eggzactly so maybe we should play him at guard this year.

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."
Post #: 3812
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 5:24:40 PM   
bohumm

 

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

In return for Diggs and two 7th rounders (one to Bills, one to Ravens) we got:

- Jefferson
- 2021 4th from Bills
- 2021 4th from Bears
- 2021 5th from Ravens
- Willekes

If the Bears and Bills are middle of the pack and the Ravens a top team, the 2021 picks equate to about #20 in the 3rd.

Damn! We can turn those into a boat load of 2021 7th round picks.

Not to mention 2022 and beyond.
Post #: 3813
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 6:09:06 PM   
Bruce Johnson

 

Posts: 16353
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Bruce, will you post that bar graph again that showed each teams value of all the picks, please?


Sorry Ricky. I went back and looked, but didn't find it. Was it based on the positions chosen? (ie selecting wr's vs guards, etc)

Wait. Was it this one?

https://twitter.com/LeeSharpeNFL/status/1254578335868268544?s=09

< Message edited by Bruce Johnson -- 4/29/2020 6:16:10 PM >


_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?
Post #: 3814
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 6:48:23 PM   
Guest
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

SKOR North is expecting Cleveland to play guard this year. So for all those who wanted us to draft a guard early we did. If they got it right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFm7g9WRrYY


I'm not on board for him playing at guard. I would rather see Reiff play at guard than Cleveland. Will he be ready this season to start? Good question. My guess is that he won't start game one, but before the season ends he will. It's just a guess. Who knows!



I know that when we drafted him I tried to look up Cleveland in my Lindy’s draft guide under tackles and couldn’t find him.

He ended up being listed as the 2nd rated GUARD in the draft with a 1st/2nd round grade.

Hmmmmm.

Although my preference was to draft OLine earlier, I’m good with putting your 5 best hogs up there and go at it.

I do like the promise of both Udoh and Samia better then recycling another load of 6th/7th rounders this year.
  Post #: 3815
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 6:55:57 PM   
kgdabom

 

Posts: 33625
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

SKOR North is expecting Cleveland to play guard this year. So for all those who wanted us to draft a guard early we did. If they got it right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFm7g9WRrYY


I'm not on board for him playing at guard. I would rather see Reiff play at guard than Cleveland. Will he be ready this season to start? Good question. My guess is that he won't start game one, but before the season ends he will. It's just a guess. Who knows!



I know that when we drafted him I tried to look up Cleveland in my Lindy’s draft guide under tackles and couldn’t find him.

He ended up being listed as the 2nd rated GUARD in the draft with a 1st/2nd round grade.

Hmmmmm.

Although my preference was to draft OLine earlier, I’m good with putting your 5 best hogs up there and go at it.

I do like the promise of both Udoh and Samia better then recycling another load of 6th/7th rounders this year.

I won't be surprised at all if Cleveland plays at guard this year. Spielman is sure positioning things for that.

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."
Post #: 3816
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 7:22:00 PM   
Guest
quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

Video breakdown of Kyle Hinton. It's against DII linemen, but his dominance is almost ridiculous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uyseRcDqX0





High comedy

Played against more the his share of tomato cans, but that was a plethora of pancakes.

That was fun to watch, not so much for the tomato cans.
  Post #: 3817
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 7:35:30 PM  1 votes
thebigo


Posts: 28251
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

SKOR North is expecting Cleveland to play guard this year. So for all those who wanted us to draft a guard early we did. If they got it right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFm7g9WRrYY


I'm not on board for him playing at guard. I would rather see Reiff play at guard than Cleveland. Will he be ready this season to start? Good question. My guess is that he won't start game one, but before the season ends he will. It's just a guess. Who knows!

His traits and skills project well at guard. However the down side is if LT is his eventual position, and I think it is, then he loses a year of tackle development. Looking at the big picture it is probably best to only have him play tackle and probably to start him this year to take his lumps and learn. However, playing him at guard could be the best move for this season.


Problem is, LT lumps = QB lumps

Eggzactly so maybe we should play him at guard this year.


Please stop spelling 'exactly' that way. Do it once, we all just roll our eyes. The second time and on we wished we had a way to cut off your fingers so you can't type anymore.
Post #: 3818
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 7:43:17 PM   
Ricky J


Posts: 18198
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline
That's it. Thank you!
Post #: 3819
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 7:48:48 PM   
Pager


Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline
Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
·
Apr 25
One big piece of this: Had the #Vikings done the deal with Trent Williams, he would’ve gotten an extension. With the #49ers, no extension is included in the deal and none is imminent.

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.
Post #: 3820
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 8:27:38 PM   
Guest
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

That's it. Thank you!



Ricky!!!!

How are ya bud!
  Post #: 3821
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 10:06:32 PM   
kgdabom

 

Posts: 33625
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

Video breakdown of Kyle Hinton. It's against DII linemen, but his dominance is almost ridiculous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uyseRcDqX0





High comedy

Played against more the his share of tomato cans, but that was a plethora of pancakes.

That was fun to watch, not so much for the tomato cans.

I love that word Plethora. Would you say I have a plethora of pinatas?

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."
Post #: 3822
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 10:07:24 PM   
kgdabom

 

Posts: 33625
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

SKOR North is expecting Cleveland to play guard this year. So for all those who wanted us to draft a guard early we did. If they got it right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFm7g9WRrYY


I'm not on board for him playing at guard. I would rather see Reiff play at guard than Cleveland. Will he be ready this season to start? Good question. My guess is that he won't start game one, but before the season ends he will. It's just a guess. Who knows!

His traits and skills project well at guard. However the down side is if LT is his eventual position, and I think it is, then he loses a year of tackle development. Looking at the big picture it is probably best to only have him play tackle and probably to start him this year to take his lumps and learn. However, playing him at guard could be the best move for this season.


Problem is, LT lumps = QB lumps

Eggzactly so maybe we should play him at guard this year.


Please stop spelling 'exactly' that way. Do it once, we all just roll our eyes. The second time and on we wished we had a way to cut off your fingers so you can't type anymore.

Sorry, but isn't that the correct spelling?

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."
Post #: 3823
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 10:38:26 PM   
thebigo


Posts: 28251
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

Video breakdown of Kyle Hinton. It's against DII linemen, but his dominance is almost ridiculous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uyseRcDqX0





High comedy

Played against more the his share of tomato cans, but that was a plethora of pancakes.

That was fun to watch, not so much for the tomato cans.

I love that word Plethora. Would you say I have a plethora of pinatas?


A veritable plethora.

Don't do it.
Post #: 3824
RE: NFL Draft 2020 - 4/29/2020 10:44:51 PM   
kgdabom

 

Posts: 33625
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

Video breakdown of Kyle Hinton. It's against DII linemen, but his dominance is almost ridiculous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uyseRcDqX0





High comedy

Played against more the his share of tomato cans, but that was a plethora of pancakes.

That was fun to watch, not so much for the tomato cans.

I love that word Plethora. Would you say I have a plethora of pinatas?


A veritable plethora.

Don't do it.

I have to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8ROhP_3-Qk

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."
Post #: 3825
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