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RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 4:19:42 PM

Bill Johanesen

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Besides, "could play" often means ~ we drafted him to be a tackle but (in a pinch) he could play guard.

They all like to blab about versatility, even w/o a track record.

Post #: 2001

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 4:26:15 PM

Todd M

Posts: 40686
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: online

So much for the multi year running 'Spielman has been criminally negligent addressing OL'.

Post #: 2002

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 4:27:21 PM

TJSweens

Posts: 45020
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Wonder what Ezra is thinking.

I have a feeling Ezra knew he was staying at G all along.

I have a feeling Ezra thought they would address guard in free agency and the draft, then he'd compete at OT.

I don't know why you think that. Spielman and Zimmer have never said anything about moving Cleveland. Spielman said the night they drafted him that Cleveland could play guard or tackle. Then he spent the whole season at guard. Speculation about Cleveland playing tackle has always come from the media and fan forums.

Maybe it's YOU projecting fandom. Per the Star-Tribune, Oct 2020: This spring, Spielman then declared Cleveland the left tackle of the future.

Not a quote mind you, but pretty close.

quote:

Spielman then declared Cleveland the left tackle of the future.

The paragraphs immediately following that line.

But coaches moved him to guard this summer, when he emerged after training camp as the fourth option behind Dakota Dozier, Elflein and Samia.

Offensive line coach Rick Dennison said last month that coaches are keeping open the possibility of moving Cleveland back to t ackle, but for now he is the latest player rolling through the Vikings’ conveyor belt at guard, a position in a years long run of inconsistency and injuries. Cleveland was the 16th guard to appear in a Vikings regular-season game since Brandon Fusco and Mike Harris played every snap in 2015.

I don't think there is any reason to believe Cleveland was expecting to play LT.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 2003

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 4:31:47 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28602
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Wonder what Ezra is thinking.

I have a feeling Ezra knew he was staying at G all along.

I have a feeling Ezra thought they would address guard in free agency and the draft, then he'd compete at OT.

I don't know why you think that. Spielman and Zimmer have never said anything about moving Cleveland. Spielman said the night they drafted him that Cleveland could play guard or tackle. Then he spent the whole season at guard. Speculation about Cleveland playing tackle has always come from the media and fan forums.

Maybe it's YOU projecting fandom. Per the Star-Tribune, Oct 2020: This spring, Spielman then declared Cleveland the left tackle of the future.

Not a quote mind you, but pretty close.

quote:

Spielman then declared Cleveland the left tackle of the future.

The paragraphs immediately following that line.

But coaches moved him to guard this summer, when he emerged after training camp as the fourth option behind Dakota Dozier, Elflein and Samia.

Offensive line coach Rick Dennison said last month that coaches are keeping open the possibility of moving Cleveland back to t ackle, but for now he is the latest player rolling through the Vikings’ conveyor belt at guard, a position in a years long run of inconsistency and injuries. Cleveland was the 16th guard to appear in a Vikings regular-season game since Brandon Fusco and Mike Harris played every snap in 2015.

I don't think there is any reason to believe Cleveland was expecting to play LT.

Sure there was. It was based on him playing exclusively at T in college, having the body for T and not G, and the proclamation of LTOTF IN THE SPRING.

Y9ou are bolding something from SEPTEMBER. He was needed then at G because it was in shambles and because Reiff and O'Neill were solid.

Post #: 2004

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 4:33:43 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28602
Status: offline

Cleveland was the 16th guard to appear in a Vikings regular-season game since Brandon Fusco and Mike Harris played every snap in 2015.

Thanks for posting that as well. Guard was a mess.

Post #: 2005

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 4:37:52 PM

kgdabom

Posts: 33770
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

Ben Goessling
@GoesslingStrib
·2h
The days of the #Vikings not investing in their offensive line are long gone: Since 2018, no team in the NFL has used as many first- or second round picks on linemen.

The question now is: Will it work?

...

OK thats news to me.

And yet many of us bitch and moan that we/Rick isn't using enough assets on the OL.

That doesn’t include Free Agency either

Many of us bitch about the results.

Bitching about the results I have no problem with whatsoever. I personally think we will have a good O Line sometime soon.
However, saying we're not putting enough assets into the OL when we are putting the most in the NFL into it is ridiculous.

If its not working, you have to put more. If you are not good at it, it takes you more tries to get it right.

If would absolutely be ridiculous to not add another OL until the 4th rd or after.

I'm guessing we draft a guard before the 4th round. If we don't it means the value wasn't there.

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 2006

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 4:38:59 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28602
Status: offline

Sweens hired a couple of minimum wagers:

Find me that Spielman quote I made up!

Uh, here is one trumping Cleveland's versatility even though there is zero evidence of him playing G in college.

Good enough!

Post #: 2007

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 4:39:29 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28602
Status: offline

The last time Vikings rookie Ezra Cleveland played guard in a game before Sunday’s 40-23 loss to the Falcons, he was a grade-school kid starring on both sides of the ball in Spanaway, Wash.

Or maybe in high school, he said.

“I don’t think I ever played it in college,” Cleveland said Tuesday via videoconference.

“Played right tackle a little bit, but never really played guard.”

Post #: 2008

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 4:40:52 PM

kgdabom

Posts: 33770
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

Ben Goessling
@GoesslingStrib
·2h
The days of the #Vikings not investing in their offensive line are long gone: Since 2018, no team in the NFL has used as many first- or second round picks on linemen.

The question now is: Will it work?

...

OK thats news to me.

And yet many of us bitch and moan that we/Rick isn't using enough assets on the OL.

That doesn’t include Free Agency either

Many of us bitch about the results.

Bitching about the results I have no problem with whatsoever. I personally think we will have a good O Line sometime soon.
However, saying we're not putting enough assets into the OL when we are putting the most in the NFL into it is ridiculous.

If its not working, you have to put more. If you are not good at it, it takes you more tries to get it right.

If would absolutely be ridiculous to not add another OL until the 4th rd or after.

We have four 3rd round picks. We should use minimum of two of those on Oline.
we have three 4th round picks. We should use at least one of those on it as well.

You expect us to find 3 More OLs in the 3rd and 4th round better than we already have. Very unlikely to happen. Maybe we have to draft 3 more to find one and cut the two who don't work out. There is a law of diminishing returns. Say for example you get HBO and you add Showtime. You get some value, but since Showtime competes for the same viewing time as HBO you get less value. Then you add Starz and you get less value. Then cinemax etc...........
It's possible it makes sense to draft 3 more OL with premium picks. It's possible that's overkill.

< Message edited by kgdabom -- 4/30/2021 5:00:23 PM >

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 2009

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 4:44:07 PM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

Ben Goessling
@GoesslingStrib
·2h
The days of the #Vikings not investing in their offensive line are long gone: Since 2018, no team in the NFL has used as many first- or second round picks on linemen.

The question now is: Will it work?

...

OK thats news to me.

And yet many of us bitch and moan that we/Rick isn't using enough assets on the OL.

That doesn’t include Free Agency either

Many of us bitch about the results.

They need to find some scouts that are really good at evaluating OLine talent.

As much as we've invested Draft pick wise we've gotten garbage in return.

That's on scouting.

And/Or coaching.

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.

Post #: 2010

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 4:48:30 PM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

Chris Tomasson
@christomasson
·
2h
GM Rick Spielman on KFAN says the "sweet spot" in this draft is third and fourth round of the draft and the #Vikings have a lot of picks then.

-----------------------------------------

GZUZ that's insulting.

Spielman: 'Oh really, we have 7 picks in rds 3-4 ... really? Everybody and their mama is trying to trade out of the 2nd rd and into 3-4 rd sweet spot. How absurdly coincidental and how lucky for us.'

Sure Rick. You are out of your mind.

We'll remind you about that after you trade up into the 2nd, and then trade down for extra late rd picks. Or trade picks for picks next year.

You are going to do anything but take advantage of this year's 'sweet spot'.

100% my issue. And adding to my angst, Spielman is talking out of both sides of his mouth. 3rd/4th is the sweet spot vs We have the assets to move up into the 2nd. Let me guess, we tried to trade up but we couldn't make it work.

Moving on to last nights pick. The big question for me when we look at this draft for years to come - will be which would have been the better outcome?:

Ezra-AVT-Bradbury-TBD-Oneil

Or

Darrisaw-Ezra-Bradbury-TBD-Oneil. (assuming Ezra flips which he might not).

Ezra might never get the chance to play Tackle, it might be a hypothetical exercise. But it will be interesting.

Ezra in either is a questionmark, but at least he played T in college. Slight edge for him playing T.

So it's mainly Darrisaw who is a 7.5 out of 10 at LT vs. AVT being an 8.5 out of 10 at G. But say they both pan out... I'd clearly take the LT. Premium position. Guard just seems like it is now for us because we have nobody.

Pretty good summary and agree on AVT vs Darrisaw both developing into the same high level of a player (tackle being the premium position).

If Ezra can't ever develop pass blocking and hold up to the DTs, more than a slight edge at Tackle where that would be less of a premium need (he still needs to handle bull rushes but easier to do vs a 260 lb DE vs a 300+ DT).

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.

Post #: 2011

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 4:50:51 PM

joejitsu

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Ezra better start doing a ton of power cleans and squats if he's going to stay inside. Bradbury needs tough guys on either side of himself.

Post #: 2012

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 4:53:19 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28602
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

Chris Tomasson
@christomasson
·
2h
GM Rick Spielman on KFAN says the "sweet spot" in this draft is third and fourth round of the draft and the #Vikings have a lot of picks then.

-----------------------------------------

GZUZ that's insulting.

Spielman: 'Oh really, we have 7 picks in rds 3-4 ... really? Everybody and their mama is trying to trade out of the 2nd rd and into 3-4 rd sweet spot. How absurdly coincidental and how lucky for us.'

Sure Rick. You are out of your mind.

We'll remind you about that after you trade up into the 2nd, and then trade down for extra late rd picks. Or trade picks for picks next year.

You are going to do anything but take advantage of this year's 'sweet spot'.

100% my issue. And adding to my angst, Spielman is talking out of both sides of his mouth. 3rd/4th is the sweet spot vs We have the assets to move up into the 2nd. Let me guess, we tried to trade up but we couldn't make it work.

Moving on to last nights pick. The big question for me when we look at this draft for years to come - will be which would have been the better outcome?:

Ezra-AVT-Bradbury-TBD-Oneil

Or

Darrisaw-Ezra-Bradbury-TBD-Oneil. (assuming Ezra flips which he might not).

Ezra might never get the chance to play Tackle, it might be a hypothetical exercise. But it will be interesting.

Ezra in either is a questionmark, but at least he played T in college. Slight edge for him playing T.

So it's mainly Darrisaw who is a 7.5 out of 10 at LT vs. AVT being an 8.5 out of 10 at G. But say they both pan out... I'd clearly take the LT. Premium position. Guard just seems like it is now for us because we have nobody.

Pretty good summary and agree on AVT vs Darrisaw both developing into the same high level of a player (tackle being the premium position).

If Ezra can't ever develop pass blocking and hold up to the DTs, more than a slight edge at Tackle where that would be less of a premium need (he still needs to handle bull rushes but easier to do vs a 260 lb DE vs a 300+ DT).

True but that is balanced a little bit by we don't know how he'd be a LT.

Interesting they appeared to want to try for Slater as well (presumably at LT), so it looks like they were hunting for that position.

Post #: 2013

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 4:58:09 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28602
Status: offline

The guard need is so acute and magnified now. But say with a Banks/Davis type, Ezra holding on, and a FA next year, if they had drafted guard at 14 they may have been left wishing they attacked another position like LT or DE in this draft.

Still leaves a 2nd rounder (Ezra) in a position he is not cut out for.

Maybe O'Neill will bolt in free agency and Ezra goes to RT.

Post #: 2014

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 5:05:01 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28602
Status: offline

OL of the future:

Darrisaw - Wyatt Davis - Dickerson - 2022 FA - Cleveland

O'Neill was tall cotton.

Post #: 2015

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 5:15:36 PM

TJSweens

Posts: 45020
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Sweens hired a couple of minimum wagers:

Find me that Spielman quote I made up!

Uh, here is one trumping Cleveland's versatility even though there is zero evidence of him playing G in college.

Good enough!

The issue is you pretending to know that Cleveland was led to believe going into the offseason that he would play LT. I don't think he was told that. Spielman doesn't decide where he plays. Zimmer and the coaching staff do and I am sure his position coaches have been communicating with him on preparations. When the Vikings didn't address the guard position in FA, I'm sure he had to know that staying at guard was a possibility.

I guess I am just not as obsessed with Cleveland playing tackle. And I don't feel sorry for him. He earned a starting job as a rookie. He is guaranteed that job in year two. I really don't see where the Vikings have wronged Cleveland.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 2016

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 5:16:57 PM

The Happy Norseman

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Joined: 12/2/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

So much for the multi year running 'Spielman has been criminally negligent addressing OL'.

Hardly. Spielman’s problem is that if he picks an olineman early in the draft he decides his work there is done and then he waits until the later rounds to take another swing at the position. The problem with that strategy is that if you swing and miss on your early round pick, you’re left with an oline that starts Dru Samia and Dakota Dozier...

_____________________________

If the Cubs can win the World Series...

Post #: 2017

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 5:22:51 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28602
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Sweens hired a couple of minimum wagers:

Find me that Spielman quote I made up!

Uh, here is one trumping Cleveland's versatility even though there is zero evidence of him playing G in college.

Good enough!

The issue is you pretending to know that Cleveland was led to believe going into the offseason that he would play LT. I don't think he was told that. Spielman doesn't decide where he plays. Zimmer and the coaching staff do and I am sure his position coaches have been communicating with him on preparations. When the Vikings didn't address the guard position in FA, I'm sure he had to know that staying at guard was a possibility.

I guess I am just not as obsessed with Cleveland playing tackle. And I don't feel sorry for him. He earned a starting job as a rookie. He is guaranteed that job in year two. I really don't see where the Vikings have wronged Cleveland.

And the issue is you don't know either. We are talking about earlier not actions as of yesterday so quit with the misleads. No obsession here, but a potential blown 2nd rounder based on a lack of vision and strategy is of concern to those who value high draft picks. You apparently couldn't care less.

And he should be upset as he is a tackle, you have to be obtuse not to see that. Of course there is the 'what's best for the team'. So he plays out of position at guard.

Post #: 2018

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 5:24:22 PM

Todd M

Posts: 40686
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

So much for the multi year running 'Spielman has been criminally negligent addressing OL'.

Hardly. Spielman’s problem is that if he picks an olineman early in the draft he decides his work there is done and then he waits until the later rounds to take another swing at the position. The problem with that strategy is that if you swing and miss on your early round pick, you’re left with an oline that starts Dru Samia and Dakota Dozier...

Conversely, one addition at guard and we'll have rebuilt our entire OL in 4 years with top draft picks.

Post #: 2019

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 5:28:15 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28602
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

So much for the multi year running 'Spielman has been criminally negligent addressing OL'.

Hardly. Spielman’s problem is that if he picks an olineman early in the draft he decides his work there is done and then he waits until the later rounds to take another swing at the position. The problem with that strategy is that if you swing and miss on your early round pick, you’re left with an oline that starts Dru Samia and Dakota Dozier...

He has drafted multiple OL at times. Problem is they sucked.

It doesn't excuse the fact that Spielman began mismanaging the OL the day he was born.

Post #: 2020

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 5:29:50 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28602
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

So much for the multi year running 'Spielman has been criminally negligent addressing OL'.

Hardly. Spielman’s problem is that if he picks an olineman early in the draft he decides his work there is done and then he waits until the later rounds to take another swing at the position. The problem with that strategy is that if you swing and miss on your early round pick, you’re left with an oline that starts Dru Samia and Dakota Dozier...

Conversely, one addition at guard and we'll have rebuilt our entire OL in 4 years with top draft picks.

Exactly. Well, 'rebuilt' only in a technical sense. But high resources have heen applied against it.

Post #: 2021

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/30/2021 5:53:31 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28602
Status: offline

The Cleveland situation is like getting an outdoors Christmas present, but you play with it indoors because there are enough good outdoor toys and the cheap indoor toys broke. The outdoor toy predictably sucks inside. In the summer half of your good outdoor toys are sold on eBay. The next year you get another but better outdoor toy, so you are still stuck playing the original outdoor toy inside. Eventually you just throw it in the fireplace because it sucks so bad inside.

Some kids will say the hell with that old toy, but astute kids will say what the hell is wrong with my parents' planning. Why did they mismanage my toys, resulting in a close to top toy being worthless.