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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/5/2022 11:39:13 AM   
thebigo


Posts: 28033
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

A career .500 QB has zero ability to “carry a team to wins”.

A career .500 QB who had Shanahan, McVey, Gruden, and KOC as his coaches, in one form or another, will not suddenly flash greatness of his own doing.

A Career .500 QB is going to need Above average play from top tier receivers and a running game to win the opener.

A career .500 QB put a lot of pressure on the defense to protect leads and prevent the opposing team from scoring.

For this team to go deep in the post season, we have to win the division.

Winning opening day and winning after the bye week @ Arizona, is going to be key.

A first round bye would be nice, but getting into the playoff without major injury issues will help.

I have guarded hopes.

But I also do not see any 1998 or 2000, or even 2009 magic waiting in the wings.

Not with a career .500 QB “ carrying “ my dreams.


How about a career .445 QB?

Which one would that be?

Stafford
Post #: 6701
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/5/2022 11:57:32 AM   
Ricky J


Posts: 16743
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

A career .500 QB has zero ability to “carry a team to wins”.

A career .500 QB who had Shanahan, McVey, Gruden, and KOC as his coaches, in one form or another, will not suddenly flash greatness of his own doing.

A Career .500 QB is going to need Above average play from top tier receivers and a running game to win the opener.

A career .500 QB put a lot of pressure on the defense to protect leads and prevent the opposing team from scoring.

For this team to go deep in the post season, we have to win the division.

Winning opening day and winning after the bye week @ Arizona, is going to be key.

A first round bye would be nice, but getting into the playoff without major injury issues will help.

I have guarded hopes.

But I also do not see any 1998 or 2000, or even 2009 magic waiting in the wings.

Not with a career .500 QB “ carrying “ my dreams.


How about a career .445 QB?

Which one would that be?

Stafford

Oh!

But he doesn't talk about God so it's different
Post #: 6702
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/5/2022 12:03:18 PM   
Pauldiercks1

 

Posts: 188
Joined: 2/1/2019
Status: offline
So many negative posts in here. I'm glad my house is more positive than some here.

The Viking absolutely have an excellent chance of winning. The game is at home, first game of the season, and it's Viking Packers divisional game. We have better players at many positions as do they.
Why does everyone work so hard to make this so complicated?
Post #: 6703
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/5/2022 12:55:54 PM   
stfrank

 

Posts: 10370
Joined: 7/22/2007
From: Twin Cities
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

A career .500 QB has zero ability to “carry a team to wins”.

A career .500 QB who had Shanahan, McVey, Gruden, and KOC as his coaches, in one form or another, will not suddenly flash greatness of his own doing.

A Career .500 QB is going to need Above average play from top tier receivers and a running game to win the opener.

A career .500 QB put a lot of pressure on the defense to protect leads and prevent the opposing team from scoring.

For this team to go deep in the post season, we have to win the division.

Winning opening day and winning after the bye week @ Arizona, is going to be key.

A first round bye would be nice, but getting into the playoff without major injury issues will help.

I have guarded hopes.

But I also do not see any 1998 or 2000, or even 2009 magic waiting in the wings.

Not with a career .500 QB “ carrying “ my dreams.


How about a career .445 QB?

Which one would that be?

Stafford

Oh!

But he doesn't talk about God so it's different

And, his .445 was earned playing on a dysfunctional Lions team for 12 of his 13 years in the league.
Post #: 6704
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/5/2022 1:13:26 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

So many negative posts in here. I'm glad my house is more positive than some here.

The Viking absolutely have an excellent chance of winning. The game is at home, first game of the season, and it's Viking Packers divisional game. We have better players at many positions as do they.
Why does everyone work so hard to make this so complicated?


Better to just go back and re-read the back of the roster posts where people were freaking out.
Post #: 6705
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/5/2022 1:29:29 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

Dead money is just accounting; it's paid during the term of the contract. And Kwesi had to do that or something like it to be able to sign people to compete for the playoffs this year, which seems to be the mandate of the Wilfs.


Thank god it's just accounting. I had thought Cousins' $12.5 million dead cap figure was additional outgoing cap money that will be paid to Cousins as part of his contract. Which was how I got his $80 million total contract figure over the next two years. Which was the premise.

I guess then the 2022 dead cap figure of $23 million is merely an accounting drill sneaky Brzez has skirted instituted. So do we really have $25 million in cap to spend?
Post #: 6706
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/5/2022 1:58:06 PM   
thebigo


Posts: 28033
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stfrank

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

A career .500 QB has zero ability to “carry a team to wins”.

A career .500 QB who had Shanahan, McVey, Gruden, and KOC as his coaches, in one form or another, will not suddenly flash greatness of his own doing.

A Career .500 QB is going to need Above average play from top tier receivers and a running game to win the opener.

A career .500 QB put a lot of pressure on the defense to protect leads and prevent the opposing team from scoring.

For this team to go deep in the post season, we have to win the division.

Winning opening day and winning after the bye week @ Arizona, is going to be key.

A first round bye would be nice, but getting into the playoff without major injury issues will help.

I have guarded hopes.

But I also do not see any 1998 or 2000, or even 2009 magic waiting in the wings.

Not with a career .500 QB “ carrying “ my dreams.


How about a career .445 QB?

Which one would that be?

Stafford

Oh!

But he doesn't talk about God so it's different

And, his .445 was earned playing on a dysfunctional Lions team for 12 of his 13 years in the league.

Yet with a bottom 5 defense over 2020-2021 (and I'm going to say a team just as dysfunctional as your standard issue Lions team), Cousins team went 15-18 .454
Post #: 6707
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/5/2022 2:10:19 PM   
bohumm

 

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

Dead money is just accounting; it's paid during the term of the contract. And Kwesi had to do that or something like it to be able to sign people to compete for the playoffs this year, which seems to be the mandate of the Wilfs.


Thank god it's just accounting. I had thought Cousins' $12.5 million dead cap figure was additional outgoing cap money that will be paid to Cousins as part of his contract. Which was how I got his $80 million total contract figure over the next two years. Which was the premise.

I guess then the 2022 dead cap figure of $23 million is merely an accounting drill sneaky Brzez has skirted instituted. So do we really have $25 million in cap to spend?

You keep treating as new money, as in your suggestion that it will go to Jeff Gladney's heirs. It is not new money. That is all I'm saying.
Post #: 6708
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/5/2022 2:15:19 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 4582
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

So many negative posts in here. I'm glad my house is more positive than some here.

The Viking absolutely have an excellent chance of winning. The game is at home, first game of the season, and it's Viking Packers divisional game. We have better players at many positions as do they.
Why does everyone work so hard to make this so complicated?

Some aim for objectivity and a longer lasting happiness than the momentary sugar rush of purple cotton candy inhalants. I'm not sure why weighing both good and bad is so hurtful for some.
Post #: 6709
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/5/2022 2:24:57 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 4582
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: stfrank

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

A career .500 QB has zero ability to “carry a team to wins”.

A career .500 QB who had Shanahan, McVey, Gruden, and KOC as his coaches, in one form or another, will not suddenly flash greatness of his own doing.

A Career .500 QB is going to need Above average play from top tier receivers and a running game to win the opener.

A career .500 QB put a lot of pressure on the defense to protect leads and prevent the opposing team from scoring.

For this team to go deep in the post season, we have to win the division.

Winning opening day and winning after the bye week @ Arizona, is going to be key.

A first round bye would be nice, but getting into the playoff without major injury issues will help.

I have guarded hopes.

But I also do not see any 1998 or 2000, or even 2009 magic waiting in the wings.

Not with a career .500 QB “ carrying “ my dreams.


How about a career .445 QB?

Which one would that be?

Stafford

Oh!

But he doesn't talk about God so it's different

And, his .445 was earned playing on a dysfunctional Lions team for 12 of his 13 years in the league.

Yet with a bottom 5 defense over 2020-2021 (and I'm going to say a team just as dysfunctional as your standard issue Lions team), Cousins team went 15-18 .454

So ... you're saying Cousins' W-L record was slightly better over 2020-2021 even though Stafford won a SB?
Post #: 6710
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/5/2022 2:36:58 PM   
Ricky J


Posts: 16743
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

So many negative posts in here. I'm glad my house is more positive than some here.



I like to think that bothers me as well but today, and other times, I've been as bad as anyone - hypocrite would be the right word
Post #: 6711
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/5/2022 3:00:54 PM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 4582
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauldiercks1

So many negative posts in here. I'm glad my house is more positive than some here.



I like to think that bothers me as well but today, and other times, I've been as bad as anyone - hypocrite would be the right word

I'm sure there are posters that are completely negative or completely positive but, really, how valuable is their input, other than for picking on. I mean, to each their own but only Siths deal in absolutes.

You're no Sith. Sorry, as much as that must hurt.
Post #: 6712
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/5/2022 3:55:11 PM   
thebigo


Posts: 28033
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: stfrank

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

A career .500 QB has zero ability to “carry a team to wins”.

A career .500 QB who had Shanahan, McVey, Gruden, and KOC as his coaches, in one form or another, will not suddenly flash greatness of his own doing.

A Career .500 QB is going to need Above average play from top tier receivers and a running game to win the opener.

A career .500 QB put a lot of pressure on the defense to protect leads and prevent the opposing team from scoring.

For this team to go deep in the post season, we have to win the division.

Winning opening day and winning after the bye week @ Arizona, is going to be key.

A first round bye would be nice, but getting into the playoff without major injury issues will help.

I have guarded hopes.

But I also do not see any 1998 or 2000, or even 2009 magic waiting in the wings.

Not with a career .500 QB “ carrying “ my dreams.


How about a career .445 QB?

Which one would that be?

Stafford

Oh!

But he doesn't talk about God so it's different

And, his .445 was earned playing on a dysfunctional Lions team for 12 of his 13 years in the league.

Yet with a bottom 5 defense over 2020-2021 (and I'm going to say a team just as dysfunctional as your standard issue Lions team), Cousins team went 15-18 .454

So ... you're saying Cousins' W-L record was slightly better over 2020-2021 even though Stafford won a SB?

I'm not saying that, even though it's all true.
Post #: 6713
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/5/2022 6:43:42 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

Dead money is just accounting; it's paid during the term of the contract. And Kwesi had to do that or something like it to be able to sign people to compete for the playoffs this year, which seems to be the mandate of the Wilfs.


Thank god it's just accounting. I had thought Cousins' $12.5 million dead cap figure was additional outgoing cap money that will be paid to Cousins as part of his contract. Which was how I got his $80 million total contract figure over the next two years. Which was the premise.

I guess then the 2022 dead cap figure of $23 million is merely an accounting drill sneaky Brzez has skirted instituted. So do we really have $25 million in cap to spend?

You keep treating as new money, as in your suggestion that it will go to Jeff Gladney's heirs. It is not new money. That is all I'm saying.


I don't care, the timing is not the point (except for you). The total value of the contract is my point.
Post #: 6714
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/5/2022 8:38:13 PM   
bohumm

 

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

Dead money is just accounting; it's paid during the term of the contract. And Kwesi had to do that or something like it to be able to sign people to compete for the playoffs this year, which seems to be the mandate of the Wilfs.


Thank god it's just accounting. I had thought Cousins' $12.5 million dead cap figure was additional outgoing cap money that will be paid to Cousins as part of his contract. Which was how I got his $80 million total contract figure over the next two years. Which was the premise.

I guess then the 2022 dead cap figure of $23 million is merely an accounting drill sneaky Brzez has skirted instituted. So do we really have $25 million in cap to spend?

You keep treating as new money, as in your suggestion that it will go to Jeff Gladney's heirs. It is not new money. That is all I'm saying.


I don't care, the timing is not the point (except for you). The total value of the contract is my point.

Sorry, I was just trying to let you know dead money is just an accounting/salary cap ploy because it was not at all clear that you understood that from what you wrote:

"He has a lot of dead cap where he will be paid but not on the roster.

Try adding all the money he will be paid and divide it by the number of years remaining on the contract.

Edit: $80 million, which includes $12.5 million he'll get for not being a Viking, over two years."

or

"$25 million in dead cap this year. 80% of it goes to Barr, Pierce, Rudolph, Gladney (his estate I guess)."

or

"To include this regime/Kwesi paying Cousins $12.5 million to sit on his ass if he wants."

or

"And Ricky please note Cousins is expected (so why bet on it?) to be here for two more years, but after that he gets the $12.5 million to drive his grandma's van full time."

So forgive me please for trying to be helpful.
Post #: 6715
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/6/2022 12:48:58 AM   
Daniel Lee Young


Posts: 10974
Joined: 9/21/2013
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

Dead money is just accounting; it's paid during the term of the contract. And Kwesi had to do that or something like it to be able to sign people to compete for the playoffs this year, which seems to be the mandate of the Wilfs.


Thank god it's just accounting. I had thought Cousins' $12.5 million dead cap figure was additional outgoing cap money that will be paid to Cousins as part of his contract. Which was how I got his $80 million total contract figure over the next two years. Which was the premise.

I guess then the 2022 dead cap figure of $23 million is merely an accounting drill sneaky Brzez has skirted instituted. So do we really have $25 million in cap to spend?

You keep treating as new money, as in your suggestion that it will go to Jeff Gladney's heirs. It is not new money. That is all I'm saying.

I look at ge dead money as testament to a long term plan that failed.

In some cases, horribly.
It’s cap money that is being thrown at a scrap heap, and not luring free agents, or paying some guy like Jefferson to be a Viking for ten years..

Would I pay Jefferson, moss money?
Yes.

Why not?

It’s not my money.

I think Jefferson would sign.

< Message edited by Daniel Lee Young -- 9/6/2022 12:50:06 AM >


_____________________________

"Thou shall not bear false witness”
I am WRATH, incarnate.
@RlyeeNicole’sDad
Post #: 6716
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/6/2022 7:25:42 AM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 23384
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stfrank

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

A career .500 QB has zero ability to “carry a team to wins”.

A career .500 QB who had Shanahan, McVey, Gruden, and KOC as his coaches, in one form or another, will not suddenly flash greatness of his own doing.

A Career .500 QB is going to need Above average play from top tier receivers and a running game to win the opener.

A career .500 QB put a lot of pressure on the defense to protect leads and prevent the opposing team from scoring.

For this team to go deep in the post season, we have to win the division.

Winning opening day and winning after the bye week @ Arizona, is going to be key.

A first round bye would be nice, but getting into the playoff without major injury issues will help.

I have guarded hopes.

But I also do not see any 1998 or 2000, or even 2009 magic waiting in the wings.

Not with a career .500 QB “ carrying “ my dreams.


How about a career .445 QB?

Which one would that be?

Stafford

Oh!

But he doesn't talk about God so it's different

And, his .445 was earned playing on a dysfunctional Lions team for 12 of his 13 years in the league.


Washington and the Vikings weren't? The combo of Snyder and Zimmer/Spielman is right there for dysfuntion.

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 9/6/2022 7:33:33 AM >


_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 6717
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/6/2022 7:28:07 AM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 23384
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
The biggest thing with the matchup with GB is that their two top lineman will at best will be dinged up. Jenkins may not play.

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 6718
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/6/2022 7:58:50 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

Dead money is just accounting; it's paid during the term of the contract. And Kwesi had to do that or something like it to be able to sign people to compete for the playoffs this year, which seems to be the mandate of the Wilfs.


Thank god it's just accounting. I had thought Cousins' $12.5 million dead cap figure was additional outgoing cap money that will be paid to Cousins as part of his contract. Which was how I got his $80 million total contract figure over the next two years. Which was the premise.

I guess then the 2022 dead cap figure of $23 million is merely an accounting drill sneaky Brzez has skirted instituted. So do we really have $25 million in cap to spend?

You keep treating as new money, as in your suggestion that it will go to Jeff Gladney's heirs. It is not new money. That is all I'm saying.


I don't care, the timing is not the point (except for you). The total value of the contract is my point.

Sorry, I was just trying to let you know dead money is just an accounting/salary cap ploy because it was not at all clear that you understood that from what you wrote:

"He has a lot of dead cap where he will be paid but not on the roster.

Try adding all the money he will be paid and divide it by the number of years remaining on the contract.

Edit: $80 million, which includes $12.5 million he'll get for not being a Viking, over two years."

or

"$25 million in dead cap this year. 80% of it goes to Barr, Pierce, Rudolph, Gladney (his estate I guess)."

or

"To include this regime/Kwesi paying Cousins $12.5 million to sit on his ass if he wants."

or

"And Ricky please note Cousins is expected (so why bet on it?) to be here for two more years, but after that he gets the $12.5 million to drive his grandma's van full time."

So forgive me please for trying to be helpful.


The fact, and point, is there is $6.25 million in dead cap for Cousins in 2024 and $6.25 million in dead cap for Cousins in 2025. Both are voided years. Simple numbers that add to the total of Cousins contract.

Next up for bohumm: big googling with three links and paraphrases from the CBA and NFL rules as he 'simply tries to help'.
Post #: 6719
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/6/2022 8:02:48 AM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 23384
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
An interesting tidbit on ZoneCoverage. The Rams convinced OBJ to come there because they were going to use a ton of 10 personnel until Robert Woods was hurt around the signing; so KOC had been back in the lab with McVay. So expect a lot of usage of Nailor, Reagor, and even Irv in 4 wide sets.

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 6720
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/6/2022 8:52:48 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 23901
Status: offline
Not faulting Kwesi for the (now) $25 million in dead cap this year. That's on Spielman and his desperation. But Kwesi had a few options for Cousins, discussed earlier in the year by astute posters. He chose to extend him a year and give him more money.

Right now the 2023 dead cap figure is insignificant. The largest line item is Jesse Davis at $750K. A small failure but a fail nonetheless.

2024 and 2025 get interesting. Besides Cousins, Harrison Smith and Thielen will either have pretty big dead cap hits if they are released or they will be manageable if they can stay productive until at least to the year prior to their contracts expiring. It's sort of a race against father time for them.

Anyway, a couple of sites show we have either $1.7 or 2.2 mil cap right now.
Post #: 6721
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/6/2022 9:01:52 AM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 23384
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
Adam Patrick
@Str8_Cash_Homey
·
8h
Dark horse candidate for the anonymous former #Vikings coordinator who referred to Mike Zimmer as “Satan”…

Former Vikings special teams coach Marwan Maalouf

Who remembers this from 2020?

https://twitter.com/i/status/1567024070553923584

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 6722
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/6/2022 9:47:24 AM   
geoffrey greitzer

 

Posts: 1336
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
Season opener!!

Cousins is a timid guy. Can't change that. Zimmer by no means helped with him feeling comfortable. Zimmer likes Jeff Hollister, or Phil Simms....not a gun slinger like Keenam who improvised plays. And didn't trust Cousins to change any plays.

Lets give Cousins a few games.. I think this will be great for him and the team.

Center still scares me, but Suh . that would be amazing. wont happen until after first game. how did cap go down so far? What happened to the 10 million before last moves?
Post #: 6723
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/6/2022 10:54:36 AM   
TJSweens


Posts: 42402
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline
Maybe I am just dumb, but I don't get the fixation with dead cap money. It only really comes into play when you get rid of the player. The Vikings are currently 14th in dead cap money with Barr being the primary source. In Cousins case the Vikings are hitching their wagon to him for the foreseeable future.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."
Post #: 6724
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/6/2022 11:14:46 AM   
kgdabom

 

Posts: 32461
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline
For those of us who like to place bets the Vikings are 1.5 point underdogs vs the Pukers for the home opener.

The Vikings over/under number for wins is 9.5
The Puke are 11.5.

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."
Post #: 6725
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