RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread

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RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/23/2023 11:38:31 AM

TJSweens

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ewen21

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: ewen21

Do not accuse me of defending Rocco. I never wanted him hired and was against his extension, but I think chatter about Rocco mishandling the bullpen lacks necessary context. I still read this page from time to time and there seems to be a lot of complaining about Rocco going to the bullpen too soon as if that is ruining this ballclub. For starters, our bullpen has given up 364 hits. Only Houston's bullpen has given up fewer hits. Our bullpen has a WHIP that is ranked 13th in baseball. We are 10th in earned runs given up. What are we really talking about here?
https://www.covers.com/sport/baseball/mlb/statistics/team-bullpenera/2023

And there is more:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/2023-reliever-pitching.shtml
Do you guys know what GR is? That is Games in Relief. They are the number of games in which a pitcher appears but is not the starting pitcher. We are well below the league average there.

And as far as that Souhan article goes, he ought to be ashamed. He rips the fans for being "snooty"?? Excuse me? We have lost 18 straight playoff games so what is he even talking about trying to pump up this mediocre bunch? Sure anything can happen. The first real season I followed was 1973 and I actually attended some Met games that year. Dad took me and brother down to see them, two hours plus in that old Galaxie 500. This is NOT the 1987 Twins. That team needed to get past the Tigers. That was it. Now it must go through a few layers of far superior teams. If Souhan wanted to earn his money and do his job he would be relentlessly pressing the Twins on this ridiculous Buxton situation. What PRECISELY is wrong with his knee? That is the job of the press. You get answers for the fans, not rip them

Twins bullpen; 13th in save opportunities, 1st in blown saves, 21st in saves. That they are lower in GR isn't surprising, since Rocco often uses relievers for 2 innings.

Agree 100% on the Souhan article.

Glad you agree on the Souhan article, but you are going to need to post your source on blown saves. Baseball-Reference shows this:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/2023-reliever-pitching.shtml
We are near the bottom but we are not last. Also, that is on the guy closing the game and moreso on the dudes who made the roster, not nearly as much the guy pushing the buttons.

Nope. Any time a reliever enters a game with the lead, it's a save opportunity. It's not just the closers.

Per MLB.com
Save opportunities ... Twins with 53 is tied for 13th with the Asros and the Rays
Saves... Twins with 29 are 21st. The Astros have 34 and the Rays have 37. There 8 teams with the same or fewer opportunities that have more saves than the Twins..
Blown saves... Twins 53-29 = 24. I stand corrected here. They are only tied for 2nd with the Cardinals and the A's.

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Post #: 1876

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/23/2023 11:43:49 AM

TJSweens

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Here is another way to look at it: according to Baseball-Reference, the Twins are dead last in save %.

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Post #: 1877

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/23/2023 2:47:47 PM

TJSweens

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Royce Lewis is a reason to feel good at least.

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Post #: 1878

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/23/2023 3:01:32 PM

Phil Riewer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Royce Lewis is a reason to feel good at least.

I would add Julien also.

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Post #: 1879

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/23/2023 3:24:53 PM

Ricky J

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Here is another way to look at it: according to Baseball-Reference, the Twins are dead last in save %.

Up 6-3 m6, 6-6 b7, 2 on 2 outs

Post #: 1880

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/23/2023 3:38:12 PM

ewen21

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First of all, if anyone could find out how many innings each pen has thrown this year that would much appreciated

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Here is another way to look at it: according to Baseball-Reference, the Twins are dead last in save %.

Point taken, but how is that the fault of the manager? Do you think Rocco is behind the idea to use Griffin Jax as a closer? No way in the world he made that call. I could be wrong, but with these GMs I do not think I am. Also, doesn't the blame for blowing a save get shared between Rocco, the guy closing (heaven forbid) and the men who made the roster? As far as bullpens go they vary greatly from year to year and while it is important to get it right if you don't have depth you can reshuffle the deck any way you want, but you are still playing the same card game. We got LUCKY in the early and mid 2000s with the bullpen and had darn near the best in baseball in that area. Most teams struggle because relief pitchers have always been failed starters

I happen to think how Rocco manages the bullpen is even the sixth or seventh worst thing about this team. How about the fact that Joey Gallo is on the roster and still getting a lot of playing time? I have a horrible sneaking suspicion this two-headed GM might resign the guy! What about the Buxton nonsense I already mentioned? How about the overbearing manner in which this team is governed by the front office? I was one of the biggest critics of Terry Ryan and I wore protests shirts (along no gone posters Mark and Bruce) to make my (our) distaste for the man known. These guys are the exact other end of the spectrum with their bizarre overuse of analytics.

Rocco sucks moreso because he manages like a bro. He is more about the baseball fraternity than he is about winning. As long as "his guys" are OK then the world is right. What kind of manager gets swept out in the first round and tells the press "I'm not frustrated at all"??? It is like he is the anti-Gardy and that doesn't mean he's good!

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Post #: 1881

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/23/2023 3:46:30 PM

ewen21

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Nope. Any time a reliever enters a game with the lead, it's a save opportunity. It's not just the closers.

YOu may have oversimplified the definition. If Caleb Theilbar enters the game in the middle of the sixth that is a save opportunity because there is a one in a million chance he finishes the game? THere are some very clear and distinct parameters your statement above ignores. It isn't my rule so let me just show you how MLB defines it.

https://www.mlb.com/glossary/standard-stats/save-opportunity

A save opportunity occurs every time a relief pitcher either records a save or a blown save. For a save opportunity, a pitcher must be the final pitcher for his team (and not the winning pitcher) and do one of the following:
*Enter the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitch at least one inning.
*Enter the game with the tying run in the on-deck circle -- or closer to scoring.
*Pitch at least three innings.

_____________________________

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure"

--Thom Jefferson"

Post #: 1882

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/23/2023 3:51:07 PM

ewen21

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Royce Lewis is a reason to feel good at least.

I would add Julien also.

I'll add Matt Wallner and even Donovan Solano. Not that Solano is going to be part of the future, but he is a breath of fresh air.

_____________________________

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure"

--Thom Jefferson"

Post #: 1883

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/23/2023 3:59:05 PM

Phil Riewer

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So both Pagan and Thielbar give up HR in lower leverage situations....uugh.

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Post #: 1884

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/23/2023 4:42:49 PM

ewen21

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Quick question. Do we blame ROcco for that?

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The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure"

--Thom Jefferson"

Post #: 1885

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/23/2023 5:17:59 PM

TJSweens

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ewen21

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Nope. Any time a reliever enters a game with the lead, it's a save opportunity. It's not just the closers.

YOu may have oversimplified the definition. If Caleb Theilbar enters the game in the middle of the sixth that is a save opportunity because there is a one in a million chance he finishes the game? THere are some very clear and distinct parameters your statement above ignores. It isn't my rule so let me just show you how MLB defines it.

https://www.mlb.com/glossary/standard-stats/save-opportunity

A save opportunity occurs every time a relief pitcher either records a save or a blown save. For a save opportunity, a pitcher must be the final pitcher for his team (and not the winning pitcher) and do one of the following:
*Enter the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitch at least one inning.
*Enter the game with the tying run in the on-deck circle -- or closer to scoring.
*Pitch at least three innings.

The bolded is literally what I said. For example, Thielbar entered with the lead in the 7th and gave up the tying run. He was charged with a blown save. It's right in the boxscore.

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"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

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RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/23/2023 5:31:11 PM

ewen21

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: ewen21

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Nope. Any time a reliever enters a game with the lead, it's a save opportunity. It's not just the closers.

YOu may have oversimplified the definition. If Caleb Theilbar enters the game in the middle of the sixth that is a save opportunity because there is a one in a million chance he finishes the game? THere are some very clear and distinct parameters your statement above ignores. It isn't my rule so let me just show you how MLB defines it.

https://www.mlb.com/glossary/standard-stats/save-opportunity

A save opportunity occurs every time a relief pitcher either records a save or a blown save. For a save opportunity, a pitcher must be the final pitcher for his team (and not the winning pitcher) and do one of the following:
*Enter the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitch at least one inning.
*Enter the game with the tying run in the on-deck circle -- or closer to scoring.
*Pitch at least three innings.

The bolded is literally what I said. For example, Thielbar entered with the lead in the 7th and gave up the tying run. He was charged with a blown save. It's right in the boxscore.

A save opportunity occurs every time a relief pitcher either records a save or a blown save
You said precisely this:
Any time a reliever enters a game with the lead, it's a save opportunity.

Yeah, he can get a blown save, but if he maintains the lead it isn't a save opportunity. That is an appearance. You oversimplified the definition

< Message edited by ewen21 -- 8/23/2023 5:32:39 PM >

_____________________________

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure"

--Thom Jefferson"

Post #: 1887

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/23/2023 7:07:01 PM

Mister Ed

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Totally shocked Pagan gave up a 2 run homer.

The added depth at the deadline for the bullpen has been awesome. Placing most of the hope on broken down Stewart to return was a brilliant decision.

Clean House young Pohlad. These losers have had a long enough time.

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RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/23/2023 8:14:50 PM

TJSweens

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ewen21

A save opportunity occurs every time a relief pitcher either records a save or a blown save
You said precisely this:
Any time a reliever enters a game with the lead, it's a save opportunity.

Yeah, he can get a blown save, but if he maintains the lead it isn't a save opportunity. That is an appearance. You oversimplified the definition

You're really splitting hairs here Ralph. Sure, what I said is a simpler way of saying the exact same thing you posted. And my point was in response to your over simplified ..."Also, that is on the guy closing the game". I was merely pointing out that it isn’t just the closers that blow saves. Bottom line is the Twins pen is terrible at holding leads. And I'm not blaming Rocco for it.

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"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1889

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/23/2023 9:12:23 PM

Ricky J

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a Judd tweet:

Bailey Ober said he was ready to keep pitching but was
informed he was being lifted. Said he felt really good and
"they're going to do what they want to do." Rocco said the
pitch count isn't that important to him at that point in the
game and he liked Floro coming in.
[78 pitches]

Post #: 1890

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/24/2023 6:25:11 AM

Boyd Tesch

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The bullpen explodes in 100 degree heat.

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RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/24/2023 2:58:47 PM

Phil Riewer

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Is Amir Garrett worth a look? Released by the Indians and pitched for KC earlier in the year but does have control issues at times.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/08/guardians-grant-amir-garrett-his-release.html

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Post #: 1892

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/24/2023 10:50:58 PM

twinsfan

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This place is sure much more interesting when we lose.

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RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/25/2023 6:32:50 AM

Boyd Tesch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

This place is sure much more interesting when we lose.

I wonder what will happen if we win a playoff game or a series?

Post #: 1894

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/25/2023 7:31:36 AM

Phil Riewer

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Winder to the rescue for the pen?

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Post #: 1895

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/25/2023 9:25:55 AM

Trekgeekscott

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Is Amir Garrett worth a look? Released by the Indians and pitched for KC earlier in the year but does have control issues at times.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/08/guardians-grant-amir-garrett-his-release.html

If two teams have released him this year....NO THANKS

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Post #: 1896

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/25/2023 11:05:36 AM

twinsfan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Is Amir Garrett worth a look? Released by the Indians and pitched for KC earlier in the year but does have control issues at times.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/08/guardians-grant-amir-garrett-his-release.html

If two teams have released him this year....NO THANKS

That seems like an oversimplified conclusion.

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Magic Number
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Post #: 1897

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/25/2023 11:50:26 AM

Trekgeekscott

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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Is Amir Garrett worth a look? Released by the Indians and pitched for KC earlier in the year but does have control issues at times.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/08/guardians-grant-amir-garrett-his-release.html

If two teams have released him this year....NO THANKS

That seems like an oversimplified conclusion.

Considering even the best teams are looking for bullpen help and this guy hasn't been able to stick on two moribund teams...

Too many red flags here.

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A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open. Frank Zappa

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RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/25/2023 11:54:23 AM

twinsfan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Is Amir Garrett worth a look? Released by the Indians and pitched for KC earlier in the year but does have control issues at times.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/08/guardians-grant-amir-garrett-his-release.html

If two teams have released him this year....NO THANKS

That seems like an oversimplified conclusion.

Considering even the best teams are looking for bullpen help and this guy hasn't been able to stick on two moribund teams...

Too many red flags here.

Thank you for the explanation.

Our magic number is down to 30.

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Magic Number
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Post #: 1899

RE: Twins 2023 Season and Game Day Thread - 8/25/2023 2:41:31 PM

Mister Ed

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Kody Funderburk would be a better left handed option to try NOW to have on hand for postseason
Has done well at St Paul

Of course
Some have decided to compare him to Slama

Your other options if they make the postseason are Keuchel and Moran

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Post #: 1900