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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/27/2023 10:56:01 AM 2 votes

Mark C. Johnson

Posts: 1191
Joined: 8/2/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

A coach and a GM should get five years. The only exceptions to that, in my opinion, would be if some sort of scandal emerged. To fire a coach or GM after just one, two, or three years makes you the Cleveland Browns.

I understand your point. But, I would point out that one of the biggest mistakes a coach, a GM, or an organization can make is to take too long to recognize or admit a mistake before moving on. For example, how many aging players did the Vikings hold onto for too long before finally moving on? Not recognizing or admitting a mistake as soon as it becomes apparent results in compounding that mistake through inaction. His moves the past two years have been bad and he has zero track record that indicates he's capable of great moves/draft picks/trades.

Also, the team will be drafting a new QB. That decision could result in a franchise QB for the next decade or it could result in setting the team back 3-to-5 years if the wrong QB is selected. Given that he has no scouting background, no coaching background, no playing background I personally do not have faith that he's capable of making what will be the most important draft choice over the past decade. The team cannot afford to screw this up so I think it's time to show him the door and move on.

Post #: 2851

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/27/2023 11:01:21 AM

David F.

Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark C. Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

A coach and a GM should get five years. The only exceptions to that, in my opinion, would be if some sort of scandal emerged. To fire a coach or GM after just one, two, or three years makes you the Cleveland Browns.

I understand your point. But, I would point out that one of the biggest mistakes a coach, a GM, or an organization can make is to take too long to recognize or admit a mistake before moving on. For example, how many aging players did the Vikings hold onto for too long before finally moving on? Not recognizing or admitting a mistake as soon as it becomes apparent results in compounding that mistake through inaction. His moves the past two years have been bad and he has zero track record that indicates he's capable of great moves/draft picks/trades.

Also, the team will be drafting a new QB. That decision could result in a franchise QB for the next decade or it could result in setting the team back 3-to-5 years if the wrong QB is selected. Given that he has no scouting background, no coaching background, no playing background I personally do not have faith that he's capable of making what will be the most important draft choice over the past decade. The team cannot afford to screw this up so I think it's time to show him the door and move on.

We're three games into their second season. Take a big breath in, and let it out slowly. Repeat.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 2852

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/27/2023 12:54:43 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28647
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arlowe84

Omg. Also look at the interior d line analysis

Viking d lineman just littered in the bottom quandrant
Wonnum, Jones, Lowry in a tier of their own. Even Phillips in bottom of the league

Confirms what I said Sunday. Vikings have worst dline by a mile

They are so devoid of talent best case 2 year fix

https://x.com/pff_moo/status/1706711602718761150?s=46&t=VV8Voz0Rov_nntUSULfRkA

At least two years, in part because of the delay in year one of Kwesi's regime. And although he is operating on a shoestring budget, he has not brought in a single difference maker. The overall talent on D is probably less than last year. Looking at this year's acquisitions/starters:

Worse
Tonga or whoever < Tomlinson
Lowry < Bullard or whoever (or a wash)
Davenport < Za
Murphy < Peterson (PP had a Keenum type year)
Blackmon < Shelley (although Blackmon is just a rookie)

Better
Pace > Kendricks (esp late season Kendricks)

Cine is still Cine
Booth is still Booth

I still think Metellus has some upside..

But that could just be “average” looking good on “overall horrible”…

Agree. I was just going by the 2023 additions, but had to mention Cine and Booth

Post #: 2853

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/27/2023 1:02:31 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28647
Status: offline

Kwesi.

Draft wise he seemed to want to show he was Mr. Smart right out of the gate. Maybe he has learned.
Free agency wise, he has been hamstrung by the cap but can't he sign just one player who you can point to and say wow, that is a very good signing and that's one less position to worry about?

Post #: 2854

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/27/2023 1:10:41 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28647
Status: offline

26th in points allowed with 27+, with two of the three games in comfy yet untimely loud US Bank stadium.

31st in rushing yards per game with 66. Miami, Philly over 185. SF over 165.

Those are two metrics that factor big in the playoffs, especially outdoors in cold weather. We would get destroyed.

Post #: 2855

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/27/2023 1:37:57 PM

Trekgeekscott

Posts: 39296
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Kwesi.

Draft wise he seemed to want to show he was Mr. Smart right out of the gate. Maybe he has learned.
Free agency wise, he has been hamstrung by the cap but can't he sign just one player who you can point to and say wow, that is a very good signing and that's one less position to worry about?

Any and all FA signings thusfar IIRC have been one year deals. I think they plan there is to get out of cap hell as quickly as possible, That means jettisoning older overpriced talent like Theilen and Kendricks. Trading oft injured talent like Z Smith and restructuring where possible H. Smith. FA signings should be more supplemental players and you build through the draft.

Early returns are not good on the draft to be sure. Addison looks like the lone truly good one. Ingram by David F and grades looks to be improving but the eye test is not living up to that assessment. Cine and Booth can't get on the field.

Cine is interesting in that the guys on the field in front of him H Smith the wiley veteran who seems to have dropped off significantly (but that may have a factor in how Flores is using him as well), Matellus, the feelgood story on the defense who has played relatively well and Cam Bynum one of our best defenders thusfar. Cine may see more playing time and when he does I hope he doesn't waste the opportunity.

Booth, KAM blew this one. the book was already there. Super freak athletically but can't stay healthy. Buxton in a purple uniform. He had delusions that Booth would somehow someway shake the injury bug and become great once fully healthy. but Booth is just one of those guys that if a soft breeze blows from the west he's going to pull a hamstring. This is one play I hope KAM has learned. Don't draft oft injured guys in the hopes that they can stay healthy. After all the most important ability...is availability.

Asamoah showed signs of being decent last year but Pace has well, Outpaced him. Asamoah will get more chances and I believe he will shine again.

Akayleb Evans, if he could have held onto a ball that hit him in the hands, I think we wouldn't be as averse. I think there is potential here but we need a CB whisperer to get th best out of him. I mean, the guy that got picked on vs a high flying passing attack like the chargers wasn't Evans. It was the veteran Byron Murphy. That says something....either that Murphy is really bad or Evans isn't or both.

Most draft picks don't shine so quickly..they usually take a year or two to develope.

So maybe things will look better by year's end. I don't know.

I do think year three should be the benchmark for whether we should keep KAM or not. I am very concerned about our future at the QB position, the plan here eludes me. Will he get Darrisaw and JJ extended? Will we get a good QB? Or keep Kirk too afraid to take the initiative and spike the ball to stop the clock Cousins?

I am not feeling great about the direction at this point. only time will truly tell though

< Message edited by Trekgeekscott -- 9/27/2023 1:40:59 PM >

_____________________________

“There is no hate like Christian love.”

Post #: 2856

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/27/2023 1:44:12 PM

Mark C. Johnson

Posts: 1191
Joined: 8/2/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark C. Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

A coach and a GM should get five years. The only exceptions to that, in my opinion, would be if some sort of scandal emerged. To fire a coach or GM after just one, two, or three years makes you the Cleveland Browns.

I understand your point. But, I would point out that one of the biggest mistakes a coach, a GM, or an organization can make is to take too long to recognize or admit a mistake before moving on. For example, how many aging players did the Vikings hold onto for too long before finally moving on? Not recognizing or admitting a mistake as soon as it becomes apparent results in compounding that mistake through inaction. His moves the past two years have been bad and he has zero track record that indicates he's capable of great moves/draft picks/trades.

Also, the team will be drafting a new QB. That decision could result in a franchise QB for the next decade or it could result in setting the team back 3-to-5 years if the wrong QB is selected. Given that he has no scouting background, no coaching background, no playing background I personally do not have faith that he's capable of making what will be the most important draft choice over the past decade. The team cannot afford to screw this up so I think it's time to show him the door and move on.

We're three games into their second season. Take a big breath in, and let it out slowly. Repeat.

No, I think that's a big reason this organization has never won the Super Bowl. They're tentative, cautious and frankly willing to accept mediocrity. Is it possible that the team roars back from the 0-3 start, makes the playoffs and goes on a run? Sure, that is possible and as a FAN I HOPE that it happens. But, if I was the OWNER my plan wouldn't be "hope", but rather, a decisive plan to drastically improve next season. Is it possible that Kwesi will make a brillant selection in the draft and we'll have a superstar QB for the next 15 years? Sure, that is possible too. It boils down to whether or not the OWNER has confidence that Kwesi is the right man to make one of the most important decisions in the upcoming off season in the history of the franchise. The OWNER knows Kewsi the person, I do not. I only know what I've seen to date as a fan of the team and what I've seen is very unimpressive. Screw up this offseason and the team will not be Super Bowl contenders for at least the next 3 to 5 years. Because once they draft the QBOTF, they will give that player a minimum of three years. Remember how far back selecting Ponder set this team? Many years were lost because we selected the wrong quarterback in the draft. Let's HOPE that Kwesi turns out to be great at his job because HOPE, rather than a solid track record of success drafting players, is all we have to go on.

Post #: 2857

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/27/2023 2:55:06 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28647
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Kwesi.

Draft wise he seemed to want to show he was Mr. Smart right out of the gate. Maybe he has learned.
Free agency wise, he has been hamstrung by the cap but can't he sign just one player who you can point to and say wow, that is a very good signing and that's one less position to worry about?

Any and all FA signings thusfar IIRC have been one year deals. I think they plan there is to get out of cap hell as quickly as possible, That means jettisoning older overpriced talent like Theilen and Kendricks. Trading oft injured talent like Z Smith and restructuring where possible H. Smith. FA signings should be more supplemental players and you build through the draft.

Early returns are not good on the draft to be sure. Addison looks like the lone truly good one. Ingram by David F and grades looks to be improving but the eye test is not living up to that assessment. Cine and Booth can't get on the field.

Cine is interesting in that the guys on the field in front of him H Smith the wiley veteran who seems to have dropped off significantly (but that may have a factor in how Flores is using him as well), Matellus, the feelgood story on the defense who has played relatively well and Cam Bynum one of our best defenders thusfar. Cine may see more playing time and when he does I hope he doesn't waste the opportunity.

Booth, KAM blew this one. the book was already there. Super freak athletically but can't stay healthy. Buxton in a purple uniform. He had delusions that Booth would somehow someway shake the injury bug and become great once fully healthy. but Booth is just one of those guys that if a soft breeze blows from the west he's going to pull a hamstring. This is one play I hope KAM has learned. Don't draft oft injured guys in the hopes that they can stay healthy. After all the most important ability...is availability.

Asamoah showed signs of being decent last year but Pace has well, Outpaced him. Asamoah will get more chances and I believe he will shine again.

Akayleb Evans, if he could have held onto a ball that hit him in the hands, I think we wouldn't be as averse. I think there is potential here but we need a CB whisperer to get th best out of him. I mean, the guy that got picked on vs a high flying passing attack like the chargers wasn't Evans. It was the veteran Byron Murphy. That says something....either that Murphy is really bad or Evans isn't or both.

Most draft picks don't shine so quickly..they usually take a year or two to develope.

So maybe things will look better by year's end. I don't know.

I do think year three should be the benchmark for whether we should keep KAM or not. I am very concerned about our future at the QB position, the plan here eludes me. Will he get Darrisaw and JJ extended? Will we get a good QB? Or keep Kirk too afraid to take the initiative and spike the ball to stop the clock Cousins?

I am not feeling great about the direction at this point. only time will truly tell though

Your first sentence is way off. Any and all? Off the top of my head, Phillips, Hicks, Za, Murphy, and Oliver were not one year deals.

Come on man!

As your tagline say, people shouldn't be entitled to their own facts... IIRC or not.

< Message edited by Bill Johanesen -- 9/27/2023 6:06:06 PM >

Post #: 2858

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/27/2023 3:12:41 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28647
Status: offline

Harrison Smith is likely gone this offseason. His dead cap is $8 million but will net a positive $3.5 million. The total team dead cap will probably be $50+ million. That plus the 1st rounder (and more?) being used for a QB leaves little for much influx of talent. But the band-aids have to come off.

2024 Dead Cap
Cousins 28.5
Hunter 15.0
Davenport 7.0
Smith (proj) 8.0
Total: $58.5 million

Players like Oliver, Murphy, and Bradbury have dead cap in void years but not until later.

The renegotiation hog trough that is O'Neill's contract means he is going to be very expensive the next three years.

< Message edited by Bill Johanesen -- 9/27/2023 6:08:06 PM >

Post #: 2859

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/27/2023 3:16:35 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28647
Status: offline

Our two tackles will soon be paid over $50 million collectively.
Our IOL will be lucky to split $5 million.

Post #: 2860

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/27/2023 4:05:14 PM

Bill Jandro

Posts: 17929
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Regarding KAM, given how much rope they gave RS, I’m scared to death of how far we’ll fall before the Wilf’s open their eyes. KAM has no track record of success and has been a disaster so far. You can make a case that his biggest hit is an undratfted, undersized, rookie LB.

I believe both were only giver 4 yr contracts vs the standard 5. By the looks of things neither will see that 4th year.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 2861

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/27/2023 6:05:29 PM

Mark Anderson

Posts: 12178
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

What's the obvious takeaway from this? Our O-line is excellent and our QB and running backs don't know how to use/navigate it. We handed a high performance car to a bunch of student drivers.

I couldn't find the composite score for Cousins or Mattison. Did you find them?

Also, the opinions from the 3 sites had some major difference of opinions on some teams. Interesting.

I guess my takeaway is our OLine isn't as bad as I thought it was. But, it sure isn't top 5.

Post #: 2862

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/27/2023 6:35:29 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28647
Status: offline

For his career KFC has 5004 passing attempts and 294 rushing attempts. Over 140 games started, that averages to 36 passing attempts and 2.1 rushing attempts per game.

Y.A. Tittle, who started his NFL career in 1948 and started until he was 38, averaged 29 passing attempts and 2.4 rushing attempts per game.

Post #: 2863

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/27/2023 7:24:53 PM

David F.

Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

What's the obvious takeaway from this? Our O-line is excellent and our QB and running backs don't know how to use/navigate it. We handed a high performance car to a bunch of student drivers.

I couldn't find the composite score for Cousins or Mattison. Did you find them?

Also, the opinions from the 3 sites had some major difference of opinions on some teams. Interesting.

I guess my takeaway is our OLine isn't as bad as I thought it was. But, it sure isn't top 5.

Well Kirk ranks 12th in QBR and Mattison ranks 36th in yards/carry among RBs with at least 50 carries. How many snaps of all 31 other teams' O-lines have you studied to help you come up with your opinion?

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 2864

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/27/2023 8:34:01 PM

Mark Anderson

Posts: 12178
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

What's the obvious takeaway from this? Our O-line is excellent and our QB and running backs don't know how to use/navigate it. We handed a high performance car to a bunch of student drivers.

I couldn't find the composite score for Cousins or Mattison. Did you find them?

Also, the opinions from the 3 sites had some major difference of opinions on some teams. Interesting.

I guess my takeaway is our OLine isn't as bad as I thought it was. But, it sure isn't top 5.

Well Kirk ranks 12th in QBR and Mattison ranks 36th in yards/carry among RBs with at least 50 carries. How many snaps of all 31 other teams' O-lines have you studied to help you come up with your opinion?

QBR and yards/carry aren't what I'm asking about.

If these 3 entities are thorough enough that they rate pass protection and rush efficiency for OLine, they sure must have scores for QBs and RBs. I couldn't find them. Hoping that you could find the same composite rating for QBs and RBs.

Post #: 2865

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/28/2023 4:36:24 PM

TJSweens

Posts: 45027
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline

Kind of interesting how our line graded out #4, yet Cousins got knocked down 16 times despite the Chargers blitzing the least of any team last week.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 2866

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/28/2023 4:55:09 PM 1 votes

Richard Neussendorfer

Posts: 19617
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Alamogordo, NM
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Kind of interesting how our line graded out #4, yet Cousins got knocked down 16 times despite the Chargers blitzing the least of any team last week.

I guess I would assume that means Kirk was holding the ball too long in their estimation?

Post #: 2867

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/29/2023 8:58:50 AM

twinsfan

Posts: 63640
Joined: 12/21/2009
Status: offline

The Vikings are Boomer Esiason's "upset special" this week over Carolina. Vikes are underdogs?

_____________________________

“We are an unserious nation that's in serious $hit.”

-Me

Post #: 2868

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/29/2023 9:08:22 AM

David F.

Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

The Vikings are Boomer Esiason's "upset special" this week over Carolina. Vikes are underdogs?

Vikes are favored by 4 to 4.5. OK Boomer. Haha.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 2869

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/29/2023 9:09:57 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28647
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

The Vikings are Boomer Esiason's "upset special" this week over Carolina. Vikes are underdogs?

OMG. One 0-3 team beats another 0-3 team and that's an upset? Is that in the Battle of the Doormats?

Post #: 2870

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/29/2023 9:55:22 AM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

The Vikings are Boomer Esiason's "upset special" this week over Carolina. Vikes are underdogs?

That's pathetic. Not exactly a death defying, thrill seeking gamble there. Evel Knievel - Snake River II.

Who cares ... except for maybe Thielen ...

Post #: 2871

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/29/2023 1:27:34 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28647
Status: offline

Vikings at Panthers. Announcers: Alex Faust (play-by-play), Brady Quinn (analyst)

Fox will bring only half of the required cameras. Brady Quinn will be like "We need a better angle of that play, like right down the goal line."

The announcers will just announce from their home via Zoom.

Post #: 2872

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/29/2023 2:35:20 PM

TJSweens

Posts: 45027
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

The Vikings are Boomer Esiason's "upset special" this week over Carolina. Vikes are underdogs?

OMG. One 0-3 team beats another 0-3 team and that's an upset? Is that in the Battle of the Doormats?

The resistible force meets the movable object.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 2873

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/29/2023 2:36:49 PM

Ricky J

Posts: 18357
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

Hopefully, someday soon, we will get all the cameras back.

What a buzz kill these three games have been.

Post #: 2874

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/29/2023 2:51:06 PM

Nate

Posts: 2295
Joined: 9/10/2009
From: A Galaxy Far Far Away...
Status: offline

Battle of the "oh and threes" this weekend, leaving two winless teams left. The race to the bottom continues.

Post #: 2875

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