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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 1:03:31 PM   
Todd M

 

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That sure feels like the time I started really questioning things, David.
Post #: 6101
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 1:05:28 PM   
Daniel Lee Young

 

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IMO
The shine is dull.. on KOC.

He lost me with his playcalling in the 1-3 start.

He shows no guts, plays not to lose with a lead.

Plays his “ designated favorite starters”, despite them being flat out terrible.

He accepts mediocre play and it’s all about “ failed to execute”, rather than admitting he called a piss poor game or play, given the moment situation.

His clock management is a horror show.


How the fuq do you get delay of game, after a timeout?

We are stuck with him, and can only hope he grows a set of gonads and learns to take risks, go for the kill with a lead and not play for a field goal once the team gets past the 50 yard line.

I am not a fan of one and done, “ making the p,ayoffs”.. then being embarrassed like last year..

Leaning towards moving him over for a more aggressive coach.

It’s not like he didn’t have talent on offense, but his use of it, and sticking with poor player execution, without sending a message by benching or pulling, for a couple series, the players who kept fn shit up…

It’s a sign of “ I’m your buddy”.. coaching.. not We will win at any cost.. coaching..

This season is over, and that’s a fact..

Our division is arguably the worst, although NFC.south is trying hard to be worse..

< Message edited by Daniel Lee Young -- 12/19/2023 1:11:38 PM >


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Post #: 6102
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 1:10:54 PM   
Todd M

 

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Kevin’s (anti) swan song would be punting in Chicago’s end netting 20 yards holding a one point lead.

One, you see a lot of coaches immediately go for the dagger after a turn over and you won’t find many more fortuitous than that one. He did the opposite. And the thing that really drives me nuts is this isn’t last years Defense. It wouldn’t have that risky to at least try.
Post #: 6103
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 1:23:42 PM   
Bill Johanesen


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Another repeat but I love the alternating player-friendly, my-way-or-the-highway head coaches of the past 20 years:

Tice
Childress
Frazier
Zimmer
O'Connell

The new philosophy was welcomed each time, i.e. we need a coach who instills discipline or we need a coach who isn't such an ass.

Flores went through 4 OCs in his three years in Miami, so he'd be a candidate to replace KOC. But KOC will be around for the foreseeable future.

< Message edited by Bill Johanesen -- 12/19/2023 1:26:41 PM >
Post #: 6104
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 1:44:04 PM   
Bill Johanesen


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KOC is really inexperienced. He was the Rams OC in name only as McVay called the plays. From what I gathered, KOC was more accurately the passing game coordinator. For the most part, he did alright last year but hasn't grown into the role. Things like delay of game penalties are inexcusable (Cousins never seemed to help matters). Cris Carter once said you play like you practice. Is there no sense of urgency in practice to hike the damn ball before the play clock expires? Do they even have a play clock for practice?

KOC is also bad at clock management in general like Tice was, where posters were clamoring for a clock management specialist.

He's good at PR, although with the lightweight Minnesota cream puff media that's not saying much.

Flores was a better hire than Donnatell.

From all accounts, the players like him. But that can be a double-edged sword.

Playcalling has been covered ad nauseum. Like someone said today, perhaps hire a real OC. Get rid of some of the assistants to the assistants.

Eh,
Post #: 6105
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 1:48:22 PM   
David F.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Another repeat but I love the alternating player-friendly, my-way-or-the-highway head coaches of the past 20 years:

Tice
Childress
Frazier
Zimmer
O'Connell

The new philosophy was welcomed each time, i.e. we need a coach who instills discipline or we need a coach who isn't such an ass.

Flores went through 4 OCs in his three years in Miami, so he'd be a candidate to replace KOC. But KOC will be around for the foreseeable future.


I not only think that the "player-friendly" style of coach can work I actually believe it's the best way to get the most our of your guys. That doesn't mean we have to be "opponent-friendly" though. I've thought so poorly of Pete Carroll throughout my time of seeing him on TV, probably for no other reason than him not handing off to Marshawn Lynch to seal his second Super Bowl with the Seahawks or just how he chews his gum. Recently I've listened to him a lot on radio interviews - dude seems like a great "player-friendly" coach. They love him and they have achieved a Super Bowl and continue to overacheive (it seems). So we know it can be done. Tony Dungy is another.

JUST GO FOR THE THROAT ON YOUR OPPONENT THOUGH!!!

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 6106
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 1:49:15 PM   
Bill Johanesen


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Since KOC was hired, I've developed play clock angst syndrome. If they are not set at the LOS by 10 seconds to go I get nervous. It's so bad that when the play clock is inside 3-5 seconds even for other teams I start freaking.

The only relief from this was, strangely, Dobbs first couple of games.

< Message edited by Bill Johanesen -- 12/19/2023 1:54:59 PM >
Post #: 6107
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 1:53:18 PM   
Bill Johanesen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Another repeat but I love the alternating player-friendly, my-way-or-the-highway head coaches of the past 20 years:

Tice
Childress
Frazier
Zimmer
O'Connell

The new philosophy was welcomed each time, i.e. we need a coach who instills discipline or we need a coach who isn't such an ass.

Flores went through 4 OCs in his three years in Miami, so he'd be a candidate to replace KOC. But KOC will be around for the foreseeable future.


I not only think that the "player-friendly" style of coach can work I actually believe it's the best way to get the most our of your guys. That doesn't mean we have to be "opponent-friendly" though. I've thought so poorly of Pete Carroll throughout my time of seeing him on TV, probably for no other reason than him not handing off to Marshawn Lynch to seal his second Super Bowl with the Seahawks or just how he chews his gum. Recently I've listened to him a lot on radio interviews - dude seems like a great "player-friendly" coach. They love him and they have achieved a Super Bowl and continue to overacheive (it seems). So we know it can be done. Tony Dungy is another.

JUST GO FOR THE THROAT ON YOUR OPPONENT THOUGH!!!


A SB win changes things for a HC. Let's revisit this if there is 5-6 years of Mr. Nice Guy with no results.
Post #: 6108
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 1:53:37 PM   
David F.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Since KOC was hired, I've developed play clock angst syndrome. If they are not set at the LOS by 10 seconds to go I get nervous. It's so bad that when the play clock is inside 3-5 seconds even for other teams I start freaking.


I hear you on that. This is me at five seconds: "No you stupid dummy QB don't add anything to the play just clap your hands or say 'turbo-set' or whatever... ARGHH!!"

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 6109
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 2:04:53 PM   
Trekgeekscott


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ONe thing is that this team has gotten so risk averse that they miss opportunites sometimes. A Guy jumps offsides and the QB doesn't take a riskier shot downfield. Too many men on the field no shot at the endzone. Turnover, no immediate daggar just like suggested above. And when they get up big they always seem to take their foot off the gas instead of truly putting the other team away. and when up big and just need to keep getting first downs and moving the sticks while bleeding the clock...3 and out happens way too often.

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Post #: 6110
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 2:05:45 PM   
Bill Johanesen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Since KOC was hired, I've developed play clock angst syndrome. If they are not set at the LOS by 10 seconds to go I get nervous. It's so bad that when the play clock is inside 3-5 seconds even for other teams I start freaking.


I hear you on that. This is me at five seconds: "No you stupid dummy QB don't add anything to the play just clap your hands or say 'turbo-set' or whatever... ARGHH!!"


Cousins had his idiotic routine.
At 12 seconds he'd pull on his helmet faceguard.
At 10 seconds he'd do his field survey.
At 8 seconds he'd do hand fake #1 then wait.
At 6 seconds the guard would do his dumbass peak into the backfield.
At 4 seconds it was hand fake #2.
At 2 seconds it was a foot stomp, clapping, and yelling, with a prayer that Bradbury could see or hear anything.
Post #: 6111
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 2:13:38 PM   
David Levine


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From: Las Vegas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Since KOC was hired, I've developed play clock angst syndrome. If they are not set at the LOS by 10 seconds to go I get nervous. It's so bad that when the play clock is inside 3-5 seconds even for other teams I start freaking.

The only relief from this was, strangely, Dobbs first couple of games.


I was going to mention that. How it seemed unimaginable that we not only never had a Delay penalty (or had to call a TO for the clock) in those first 2 games, but we never even seemed close to running out the clock.

And then I realized it was the 15 second cutoff for the mic that was key.

KOC had to get all the needed info to Dobbs before there were 15 seconds left. After that Dobbs just ran the play because he didn't know any audibles or what to change. He just ran the play with only the variables provided to him.

Dobbs had 15 seconds to get to the line, take a quick look and call for the snap.

Cousins had 15 seconds to get to the line, repeat the play call to himself, look at the defense, panic, think of another playcall, say that out loud to himself, panic, point at a few guys, panic, then try to get the ball off before :00...
Post #: 6112
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 2:14:37 PM   
Jeff Jesser


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I like a lot of what KOC is doing but his warts are showing, as mentioned. The delay of game, after a TO, playing conservative (all the things everyone is mentioning).

The TO's, and injuries, have killed us this year. Outside of Vikings boards he's whispered as a coach of the year candidate. Is he the answer? Maybe, maybe not. He's not getting fired so lets see if he grows. This offseason will define he and KAM. Can they get the QB and keep the D moving forward if we lose Flores. Those are the franchise questions we need answers to.
Post #: 6113
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 2:15:59 PM   
Trekgeekscott


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I am still irked by not understanding we need to clock the ball with no timeouts under two minutes in the game.

I really hope he learned from that one.

_____________________________

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Post #: 6114
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 2:30:32 PM   
Daniel Lee Young

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

I am still irked by not understanding we need to clock the ball with no timeouts under two minutes in the game.

I really hope he learned from that one.

That was 100% on KFC.. proved without any doubt or remorse, that he is a complete tool at QB..

What 12 year veteran doesn’t understand the need to conserve clock, going for the come from behind win…with NO timeouts?

Complete idiocy..

FKFC.

_____________________________

"Thou shall not bear false witness”
I am WRATH, incarnate.
@RlyeeNicole’sDad
Post #: 6115
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 2:42:29 PM   
Jeff Jesser


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While I agree that was on Cousins, KOC should have been screaming in his ear when the confusion was clearly taking over.

Just like KOC should have taken Flores' advice when he was yelling at him to take a TO on Saturday.
Post #: 6116
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 3:28:28 PM   
Daniel Lee Young

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

While I agree that was on Cousins, KOC should have been screaming in his ear when the confusion was clearly taking over.

Just like KOC should have taken Flores' advice when he was yelling at him to take a TO on Saturday.

kOC is too situationally unaware to make calls like that, he is busy reciting war and peace play combinations and checks into the mic, to bother looking at a game clock or having a sense of urgency..

We missed out on Dungy and Tomlinson..

I don’t know who we’re out better options as HC candidates, after Zimm was shown the door, but I’m betting KFCwas on his knees committing a sin of some kind on KAM,to get his Daddy, KOC chosen as new Head Coach..

Yes, that is hyperbole, but it seems the combination of KOC and KFC is possibly the worst HC/ QB combination since Les Steckel and Two minute Tommy, wade wilson and Archie Manning..

A case can be made for Ponder, McNabb and Webb, under Frazier…

What a complete basket case of coaches and QB’s since Burns and Green…

Yeesh..

< Message edited by Daniel Lee Young -- 12/19/2023 5:14:00 PM >


_____________________________

"Thou shall not bear false witness”
I am WRATH, incarnate.
@RlyeeNicole’sDad
Post #: 6117
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 4:38:44 PM   
David Levine


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Which quarterback has the most impressive trait?

Scouts had a lot of different answers here. Williams' field vision. Maye's second-effort mobility. McCarthy's efficiency. But it was Daniels' deep ball that was mentioned the most.

"The dude's touch down the field is really special," said an NFC area scout.

Daniels -- who officially declared for the draft on Monday -- first showed off his deep accuracy during his freshman year at Arizona State, and it has developed very well over the course of his college career. In 2023, Daniels threw 20 touchdown passes -- and zero interceptions -- on passes over 20 air yards. That's six more than anyone else, and 11 of them were aired out 30-plus yards downfield.

"A lot of these [QBs] have special traits, but his deep ball should be glorified," said another NFC scout who covers the SEC.

Daniels' ability to layer the ball over the top of defenders and how well he leads LSU's wide receivers -- including top prospects Malik Nabers and Brian Thomas Jr. -- into space is truly elite. His 99.6 QBR throwing to vertical routes led the nation this season.

Who is the biggest QB riser in the class so far?

It's Daniels again. In fact, no player, regardless of position, has risen more on my board this season than the 2023 Heisman Trophy winner. He's now No. 8 overall for me.

Over the summer, Daniels was receiving Day 3 grades from National Scouting Report and BLESTO Scouting Services, which NFL teams staff for early scouting assessments. One of those area scouts involved said in a text, "Daniels was a fun Day 3-type guy who had some nice traits but hadn't put it all together. Well, he put it together this year."

An LSU staffer told me that Daniels was the hardest worker during the team's summer practices and workouts, dedicated to not only adding strength to his lean 6-foot-4 frame but also improving his play from within the pocket. Coaches emphasized keeping his eyes up and down the field. It paid off, with Daniels throwing for 40 touchdown passes and four interceptions while completing 72.2% of his passes.

The class's QB3 was something of a debate all season, with Ewers, McCarthy and Sanders all getting some consideration there. But for now, Daniels is secure as my third-ranked quarterback. He continued to improve each week, and it doesn't hurt that he was the best QB in college football while battling it out in the competitive SEC.

"It's not crazy to think there are teams that will have Daniels as QB2," said an NFC general manager. "If you are building a team where the quarterback being mobile is a priority, Daniels could easily be your pick over Maye."

I spoke to another NFL exec late last week about the quarterbacks, and after 45 minutes of tossing around names, he said, "I think you like Daniels more than you realize!" His game fits well with the NFL, and yes, there is a path to him rising to QB2.

Is there someone whom teams are higher on than consensus?

"You know who's going to go higher than anyone thinks?" asked an AFC East scout last week via text. "J.J. McCarthy."

The Michigan quarterback is loved by scouts who have studied his game and have seen the junior passer throw in person. McCarthy is efficient; he has posted a QBR of 89.2, good for third in the nation, while throwing 19 touchdown passes to four interceptions.

"I think a lot of people haven't done a deep dive on McCarthy yet," said a scout who covers the Michigan area, "but when they do, he's going to rise. He would dominate an event like the Senior Bowl."

The main knock on McCarthy's game this year has more to do with the Wolverines than his skill set. Michigan's scheme doesn't ask for a lot of pure passing from him. The Wolverines run the ball early and often, with McCarthy attempting only 287 passes this season (77th in the FBS) and averaging 19.3 per game against their three ranked opponents toward the end of the season. He didn't attempt a single pass in the second half of a 24-15 win over Penn State in mid-November!

And because Michigan throws only 44.5% of the time (124th out of 133 teams), McCarthy hasn't been able to showcase his passing ability to a high level. That has led to questions the junior simply can't answer on tape. He must rely on the pre-draft process, should he declare for the draft. As of now, McCarthy sits at No. 19 overall on my board, but he could absolutely rise as we get closer to draft time.

"To me, he's an athletic Kirk Cousins," said the Michigan region scout.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/draft2024/insider/story/_/id/39136559/2024-nfl-draft-quarterback-class-williams-maye-daniels-mccarthy
Post #: 6118
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 4:50:57 PM   
Jeff Jesser


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He won’t last to us. I expect the combine to sky rocket him
Post #: 6119
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 5:11:24 PM   
David Levine


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For sure. We'd likely have to trade into the Top 10 (or higher).
Post #: 6120
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 5:34:27 PM   
Todd M

 

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I think they’re thinking QB to learn behind Cousins for a year or 2. I don’t see them shedding much draft stock to land one they want. I.E., stand pat with their #1 pick.

If they do this I foresee frustration on a lot of parts about how long it takes to see him in action and/or take over the job.
Post #: 6121
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 5:40:42 PM   
Todd M

 

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I’d like very much to be surprised by Kwesi this off season.
Post #: 6122
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 5:57:25 PM   
David Levine


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From: Las Vegas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

I think they’re thinking QB to learn behind Cousins for a year or 2. I don’t see them shedding much draft stock to land one they want. I.E., stand pat with their #1 pick.

If they do this I foresee frustration on a lot of parts about how long it takes to see him in action and/or take over the job.


So basically drafting a guy for the next regime...
Post #: 6123
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 6:01:03 PM   
Todd M

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

I think they’re thinking QB to learn behind Cousins for a year or 2. I don’t see them shedding much draft stock to land one they want. I.E., stand pat with their #1 pick.

If they do this I foresee frustration on a lot of parts about how long it takes to see him in action and/or take over the job.


So basically drafting a guy for the next regime...


If we’re competitive for the playoffs for a 3rd year in a row extensions will be handed out.
Post #: 6124
RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2023 6:21:35 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

I think they’re thinking QB to learn behind Cousins for a year or 2. I don’t see them shedding much draft stock to land one they want. I.E., stand pat with their #1 pick.

If they do this I foresee frustration on a lot of parts about how long it takes to see him in action and/or take over the job.


So basically drafting a guy for the next regime...


If we’re competitive for the playoffs for a 3rd year in a row extensions will be handed out.


If we're banking on Cousins, my guess is we aren't competitive.

With his age and injury, there is a good chance next year is a wasted season for him. And all it'll cost us is probably 30+ Million dollars to watch...
Post #: 6125
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