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RE: General Vikes Talk - 8/31/2023 6:34:20 PM

Ricky J

Posts: 18357
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Apples and oranges. Your wife's cousin was a bystander, KOC was very involved in how the offense performed even if he didn't call the plays.

Was KOC the head coach? Wasn't the only point, KOC ought to improve greatly the second year? But I get it, yove gotta get your Cousins' jabs in

Post #: 1751

RE: General Vikes Talk - 8/31/2023 6:43:50 PM

marty

Posts: 13049
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: online

I think the only way the Vikings get the #1 pick to draft Caleb Williams, is by giving up JJ and 2 1st round picks.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 1752

RE: General Vikes Talk - 8/31/2023 6:44:15 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28612
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Hocks low yards per catch is a Kirk problem.

Yup.

He went from 15.2 with Detroit to 8.7 with us.

He averaged 11 for his 4 years with Detroit, so he's definitely capable of stretching the field more.

Det. wishes it had our prob at receivers right now is my guess

- and wouldnt O'Connell problem as well?

Absolutely. I like him a lot, but I was more than a little underwhelmed with his playcalling. And that was compounded by Kirk being a guy who will not go "off script".

Well, I have to believe year 2 will be much better - I mean, if there isn't a lot of growth between year 1 and 2 you might as well switch coaches right now

Or switch QBs. KOC is wearing a ring. KC, not so much.

Didn't call the plays to get that ring through did he?

My wife has a first cousin who worked as a PR person for the Bulls for years. She has as many rings and Jordon does.

No, but Cousins has not led a single team beyond one playoff win over 11 years, has he? Fail!

Bottomline is KOC is signed. Conversely, your love fest QB will be a UFA unless the regime strikes out in a replacement and there is a come to Jesus meeting over a tremendously lower salary negotiation.

I think the second time I brought up "if only we would of had a better defense" you jumped all over my ass about repeating myself. What are you on about 37 times you're going to tell us how many playoff games Cousins' has won?

Well maybe it will be different this year, Bill. Maybe! And maybe F not. Whatever!

I edited my post with weird speculative innuendo about whether Cousins could win two playoff games. Ha, as if. 37 times, lol. No matter the number, you've never had a reasonable post that explained that ineptitude! He is Troy Williamson and Sam Bradford as far as stealing money. And I think for you and another you let his religious beliefs cloud your judgement of the FACTS, as painful as they are.

Post #: 1753

RE: General Vikes Talk - 8/31/2023 6:47:49 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28612
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Apples and oranges. Your wife's cousin was a bystander, KOC was very involved in how the offense performed even if he didn't call the plays.

Was KOC the head coach? Wasn't the only point, KOC ought to improve greatly the second year? But I get it, yove gotta get your Cousins' jabs in

So that quote of me is clearly from Tom. Tell me Ricky, how in the hell did you manage that? Because it is not in the norm.

Post #: 1754

RE: General Vikes Talk - 8/31/2023 6:50:06 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77940
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

Andrew Krammer@Andrew_Krammer

WR Jalen Reagor cleared waivers and is now a free agent. The #Vikings' $2.4 million owed to him will be offset by what he makes with another team this season.

No one asked, but practice squad players can make ~$20K a week with Reagor's experience. If added to a 53, his vet minimum salary is a prorated ~$1M over 18 weeks. So Vikings are likely paying the bulk of his salary this year.

Post #: 1755

RE: General Vikes Talk - 8/31/2023 6:56:41 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28612
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Apples and oranges. Your wife's cousin was a bystander, KOC was very involved in how the offense performed even if he didn't call the plays.

Was KOC the head coach? Wasn't the only point, KOC ought to improve greatly the second year? But I get it, yove gotta get your Cousins' jabs in

So that quote of me is clearly from Tom. Tell me Ricky, how in the hell did you manage that? Because it is not in the norm.

Well Ricky? Care to explain your fraudulent post? It's not a simple 'oh I got the posts messed up'. Yet another post you would have deleted with an x if I didn't see it?

Not surprising since today is the real beginning of the end for Cousins. Good riddance.

< Message edited by Bill Johanesen -- 8/31/2023 6:58:18 PM >

Post #: 1756

RE: General Vikes Talk - 8/31/2023 9:14:26 PM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9563
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: online

.
.
.
.
so the hockenson deal is a four-year extension beyond 2023 - that's 2024-2027 (4-yrs)...$16.5mm/yr....

the 2023 5th-year option of $9.392 was factored into the deal to lower the cap hit this season...so one could call it a restructured five-year deal at $75.392mm, or $15.078mm/yr....

cap hits are:

$4.92mm - 2023, saves us about $4.4mm this season
$14.1mm
$15.1mm
$19.6mm
$21.6mm - 2027

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.

Post #: 1757

RE: General Vikes Talk - 8/31/2023 9:25:37 PM

kgdabom

Posts: 33770
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
.
.
.
so the hockenson deal is a four-year extension beyond 2023 - that's 2024-2027 (4-yrs)...$16.5mm/yr....

the 2023 5th-year option of $9.392 was factored into the deal to lower the cap hit this season...so one could call it a restructured five-year deal at $75.392mm, or $15.078mm/yr....

cap hits are:

$4.92mm - 2023, saves us about $4.4mm this season
$14.1mm
$15.1mm
$19.6mm
$21.6mm - 2027

Looking at the structure it makes me feel a little better.

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 1758

RE: General Vikes Talk - 8/31/2023 10:22:04 PM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Apples and oranges. Your wife's cousin was a bystander, KOC was very involved in how the offense performed even if he didn't call the plays.

Was KOC the head coach? Wasn't the only point, KOC ought to improve greatly the second year? But I get it, yove gotta get your Cousins' jabs in

Even though that line is the best post Bill ever wrote, the pinnacle of his posting ...

It is wholly directed at your comment about O'Connell. Totally. Read it again.

I understand the 'Cousins jab' comment ... I own the fact that I've put in too much time there.

But your jab about my jab was not accurate this time.

Post #: 1759

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/1/2023 5:57:06 AM

Bill Jandro

Posts: 17929
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Ben Goessling
@BenGoessling
·
6m
Kwesi Adofo-Mensah said the #Vikings have agreed to terms with T.J. Hockenson on a contract extension.

-- bet the aches and pains suddenly got better ;)

I hate hearing that. I was hoping we would trade him. Or is this prior to trading him?

There would be a large deadcap hit so no they won't be trading him.

Including this season at 9ml the overall contract is 15avv. I think they worked it so it sounds like Hock reset the market when it actually is pretty close to what his value is compared to the other top paid TE's.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 1760

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/1/2023 7:52:51 AM

stfrank

Posts: 11824
Joined: 7/22/2007
From: Twin Cities
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Ben Goessling
@BenGoessling
·
6m
Kwesi Adofo-Mensah said the #Vikings have agreed to terms with T.J. Hockenson on a contract extension.

-- bet the aches and pains suddenly got better ;)

I hate hearing that. I was hoping we would trade him. Or is this prior to trading him?

There would be a large deadcap hit so no they won't be trading him.

Including this season at 9ml the overall contract is 15avv. I think they worked it so it sounds like Hock reset the market when it actually is pretty close to what his value is compared to the other top paid TE's.

And if he stays healthy and plays like he can this contract will look like a great deal by the end of the 4 year term.

Post #: 1761

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/1/2023 9:17:48 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28612
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Apples and oranges. Your wife's cousin was a bystander, KOC was very involved in how the offense performed even if he didn't call the plays.

Was KOC the head coach? Wasn't the only point, KOC ought to improve greatly the second year? But I get it, yove gotta get your Cousins' jabs in

Even though that line is the best post Bill ever wrote, the pinnacle of his posting ...

It is wholly directed at your comment about O'Connell. Totally. Read it again.

I understand the 'Cousins jab' comment ... I own the fact that I've put in too much time there.

But your jab about my jab was not accurate this time.

LOL, it is at the top of my delete list because it is so bad. Nonsensical, bad grammar, pointless, darn near lifeless! For some reason I can't find it in order to delete it

Post #: 1762

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/1/2023 9:18:47 AM

Todd M

Posts: 40689
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

To me Hock is good but not great. Good doesn’t reset the market.

As for negotiation skills…they were rumoured to be “far apart” …settling on a mark setting contract isn’t exactly winning.

Post #: 1763

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/1/2023 10:34:30 AM

kgdabom

Posts: 33770
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Ben Goessling
@BenGoessling
·
6m
Kwesi Adofo-Mensah said the #Vikings have agreed to terms with T.J. Hockenson on a contract extension.

-- bet the aches and pains suddenly got better ;)

I hate hearing that. I was hoping we would trade him. Or is this prior to trading him?

There would be a large deadcap hit so no they won't be trading him.

Including this season at 9ml the overall contract is 15avv. I think they worked it so it sounds like Hock reset the market when it actually is pretty close to what his value is compared to the other top paid TE's.

Yeah after seeing the structure I feel better. Not good, but better. If we traded him why do we take the dead cap hit. The team acquiring him acquires his salary. It's confusing.

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 1764

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/1/2023 10:36:49 AM

kgdabom

Posts: 33770
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

To me Hock is good but not great. Good doesn’t reset the market.

As for negotiation skills…they were rumoured to be “far apart” …settling on a mark setting contract isn’t exactly winning.

Sure didn't seem like there was any negotiation or compromise. It looked like a Rick Spielman contract just give him whatever he wants to keep his own.

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 1765

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/1/2023 10:52:07 AM

ronhextall

Posts: 6271
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

To me Hock is good but not great. Good doesn’t reset the market.

As for negotiation skills…they were rumoured to be “far apart” …settling on a mark setting contract isn’t exactly winning.

Agreed, don't need some Harvard MBA to stay " how about we make you the highest paid TE in the history of Football? "

Post #: 1766

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/1/2023 10:59:01 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28612
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

To me Hock is good but not great. Good doesn’t reset the market.

As for negotiation skills…they were rumoured to be “far apart” …settling on a mark setting contract isn’t exactly winning.

Agreed, don't need some Harvard MBA to stay " how about we make you the highest paid TE in the history of Football? "

It was Princeton, a bachelor's in economics. And the negotiation included avocado toast fused with locally sourced soybean sprouts washed down with kale-inspired coco water.

Post #: 1767

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/1/2023 11:08:16 AM

kgdabom

Posts: 33770
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

To me Hock is good but not great. Good doesn’t reset the market.

As for negotiation skills…they were rumoured to be “far apart” …settling on a mark setting contract isn’t exactly winning.

Agreed, don't need some Harvard MBA to stay " how about we make you the highest paid TE in the history of Football? "

_____________________________

"So let it be written.
So let it be done."

Post #: 1768

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/1/2023 11:34:57 AM

Jeff Allen

Posts: 8660
Joined: 7/25/2007
From: Twin Cities
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: joejitsu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

SKOR North
@SKORNorth
·
9s
PAY-DAY: #Vikings TE T.J. Hockenson is now the highest-paid tight end in the NFL, signing a four-year $68.5 million contract extension with $42.5 million guaranteed. #SKOL

Wow. I didn’t think he’d get that much money from us. And JJ is expected to set the market with his upcoming deal.

All that is nothing.

JJ is going to bust through $30 million a year as if it is rice paper.

And just wait until Darrisaw is up. He's already drawn praise as the second best LT in the league.

Untold tens of millions in dead cap.

The D needs an talent boost.

How people (not you) are having a come to Jesus moment regarding the pending UFA Cousins is beyond comprehension.

Been saying this for a year... IF WE CHOOSE TO DO ALL THE ABOVE, WE WILL HAVE TO START A QB ON A ROOKIE DEAL.

It might work. It might not work. But if it works... The payoff could be a Super Bowl. If it doesn't work... Who cares? One-and-done in the playoffs? I'm over it.

Who are we going to draft that is going to come in and set the NFL on fire his rookie year? We won't get a shot at Caleb. So who is it?

Cousins hasn't set the world on fire so why is that a requirement?

Pretty darn good. OK I'll settle for who we can draft that can come in and be pretty darn good his rookie year?

And this is exactly why we should have traded Cousins and found a journeyman for this year. We are headed for 8-9 or 9-8 with Cousins. That list above is ridiculous. The only QB's I can remember teams tanking for were Luck and Lawrence. What teams mostly do is tank for a high draft pick so they can figure out who they want to take at QB. Vikings try and draft QB's in the 3-5 rounds which just doesn't work. This will be a wasted season and instead of drafting the second or third best QB next year we will get the fourth or fifth best QB. They better get lucky.

Post #: 1769

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/1/2023 11:36:45 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28612
Status: offline

I just hope they can utilize Hock for more than 8.7 ypc. Yes he averaged 15.2 ypc in Detroit in 2022 before he was traded, but that included an 81 yard catch with a sample size of just 26 catches. Take that out and he still would have averaged 12.5 ypc but his catch rate was only 60%.

Nothing is screaming he'll average ~ 13 ypc like Kelce and Kittle with a high catch rate. Those guys plus Ertz are/were catching the ball at percentages well into the 70s. Other variables exist, but perhaps Hock is limited as far as extending the field, making tacklers miss, or being the guy that refuses to go down while dragging tacklers down the field.

But he is 26 with proven ability. $15 million per is high but not absurd, especially over five years. And for those hoping for Cousins, $15 million isn't the driver that puts Cousins' salary out of reach. It's going to be JJ, Darrisaw, dead cap/void years used by Spielman and Kwesi, and O'Neill.

Post #: 1770

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/1/2023 11:42:34 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28612
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Allen

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: kgdabom

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: joejitsu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

SKOR North
@SKORNorth
·
9s
PAY-DAY: #Vikings TE T.J. Hockenson is now the highest-paid tight end in the NFL, signing a four-year $68.5 million contract extension with $42.5 million guaranteed. #SKOL

Wow. I didn’t think he’d get that much money from us. And JJ is expected to set the market with his upcoming deal.

All that is nothing.

JJ is going to bust through $30 million a year as if it is rice paper.

And just wait until Darrisaw is up. He's already drawn praise as the second best LT in the league.

Untold tens of millions in dead cap.

The D needs an talent boost.

How people (not you) are having a come to Jesus moment regarding the pending UFA Cousins is beyond comprehension.

Been saying this for a year... IF WE CHOOSE TO DO ALL THE ABOVE, WE WILL HAVE TO START A QB ON A ROOKIE DEAL.

It might work. It might not work. But if it works... The payoff could be a Super Bowl. If it doesn't work... Who cares? One-and-done in the playoffs? I'm over it.

Who are we going to draft that is going to come in and set the NFL on fire his rookie year? We won't get a shot at Caleb. So who is it?

Cousins hasn't set the world on fire so why is that a requirement?

Pretty darn good. OK I'll settle for who we can draft that can come in and be pretty darn good his rookie year?

And this is exactly why we should have traded Cousins and found a journeyman for this year. We are headed for 8-9 or 9-8 with Cousins. That list above is ridiculous. The only QB's I can remember teams tanking for were Luck and Lawrence. What teams mostly do is tank for a high draft pick so they can figure out who they want to take at QB. Vikings try and draft QB's in the 3-5 rounds which just doesn't work. This will be a wasted season and instead of drafting the second or third best QB next year we will get the fourth or fifth best QB. They better get lucky.

That's why some of us were wanting Kwesi to blow it up two years ago. So maybe he did have to follow the 'competitive rebuild' edict. It's been well stated that will ensure mediocrity (with 13-4... actually 13-5... being the fluke exception).

We are getting out of cap hell, slowly. But barring going bonkers we just don't have the draft resources to be a significant player in next year's draft

Post #: 1771

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/1/2023 12:17:53 PM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

To me Hock is good but not great. Good doesn’t reset the market.

As for negotiation skills…they were rumoured to be “far apart” …settling on a mark setting contract isn’t exactly winning.

Agreed, don't need some Harvard MBA to stay " how about we make you the highest paid TE in the history of Football? "

Apparently (according to nflnetwork), the deal is pretty close to what the Vikings offered Hock before training camp. Hock and his agent must of hemmed and hawed before caving and signing off on the deal (totally my interpretation).

Its neither here nor there at this point. I like him as a player ... not a true field stretcher as a TE ... doesn't have the assassin mentality of the top 2-3 TEs ... just really solid in all areas, so much better than what we've had in a long time.

Not all but most contracts paid to entrenched starters that are top 10 at their position are inflated ... pretty sure the language of the contract is even more inflated than the numbers to make the agent look good.

Post #: 1772

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/1/2023 12:21:00 PM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

To me Hock is good but not great. Good doesn’t reset the market.

As for negotiation skills…they were rumoured to be “far apart” …settling on a mark setting contract isn’t exactly winning.

Agreed, don't need some Harvard MBA to stay " how about we make you the highest paid TE in the history of Football? "

It was Princeton, a bachelor's in economics. And the negotiation included avocado toast fused with locally sourced soybean sprouts washed down with kale-inspired coco water.

Nice. Almost as good as the one from yesterday that you quickly copyrighted and mounted on your wall.

Post #: 1773

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/1/2023 12:50:38 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28612
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

To me Hock is good but not great. Good doesn’t reset the market.

As for negotiation skills…they were rumoured to be “far apart” …settling on a mark setting contract isn’t exactly winning.

Agreed, don't need some Harvard MBA to stay " how about we make you the highest paid TE in the history of Football? "

It was Princeton, a bachelor's in economics. And the negotiation included avocado toast fused with locally sourced soybean sprouts washed down with kale-inspired coco water.

Nice. Almost as good as the one from yesterday that you quickly copyrighted and mounted on your wall.

I owe it to our pal. It takes a village. Pewter framed nonetheless.

Post #: 1774

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/1/2023 1:01:31 PM

kgdabom

Posts: 33770
Joined: 7/29/2007
Status: offline

The more I look into the way Hock's deal was designed the better I feel about it. Maybe Kwesi doesn't suck as much as I thought he did. I apologize for my overreaction. Go Hock and Go Vikings.