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RE: College Basketball - 2/16/2009 8:18:18 PM   
Steve Lentz


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Status: offline 		Griffin IMO remains the pick for the lottery winner. Nobody really close at this point.

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RE: College Basketball - 2/16/2009 10:37:08 PM   
djskillz


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From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		I didn't get to see the game yet (Tivo; at Preds game) but Blair is a beast, so I don't put a WHOLE lot of stock in this one instance.  Blair's the most physical player in the country IMO. 

But on the whole, I do agree.

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Post #: 227
RE: College Basketball - 2/16/2009 11:13:38 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

I didn't get to see the game yet (Tivo; at Preds game) but Blair is a beast, so I don't put a WHOLE lot of stock in this one instance.  Blair's the most physical player in the country IMO. 

But on the whole, I do agree.


He's a beast, but he's like 7 inches shorter. Watch the game, Thabeet had about as much impact on the game as I did - he just doesn't respond at all to guys getting physical with him.
Post #: 228
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 9:58:45 AM   
Jim Frenette


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From: Dundas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

I didn't get to see the game yet (Tivo; at Preds game) but Blair is a beast, so I don't put a WHOLE lot of stock in this one instance.  Blair's the most physical player in the country IMO. 

But on the whole, I do agree.


He's a beast, but he's like 7 inches shorter. Watch the game, Thabeet had about as much impact on the game as I did - he just doesn't respond at all to guys getting physical with him.


And he had the ball stripped from him late in the game when he tried to dunk

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Post #: 229
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 10:02:06 AM   
TJSweens


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Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online 		Thabeet got bitch slapped pure and simple. My faith in Trent is starting to wane a little.

Griffin is an absolute monster. If the Wolves were lucky enough to get #1, I would take him and move either Love or Big Al. I think Griffin will be that good.

Short of getting #1, Harden is definitely the guy IMO. I would maneuver with the extra picks and players whoever I could to get him.

< Message edited by TJSweens -- 2/17/2009 10:03:18 AM >

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Post #: 230
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 10:11:42 AM   
djskillz


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Joined: 7/17/2007
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Status: offline 		I'm very divided on Griffin longterm, just like Beasley, IMO.  Should be a "stat" guy, but I'm not sure his teams will ever win.  Going to be interesting to see.

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Post #: 231
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 10:17:13 AM   
Guest
 It will be interesting to see how Thabeet responds against Pitt in two weeks.  In fact, they'll probably face eachother two more times this season.  In the meantime, Thabeet will feast on the small lineups UConn has left, with the exception of Pitt.

I'm getting tired of Calhoun campaigning for Thabeet as player of the year.  He's not even the best player in the conference.  As of now, he's nothing more than a shot blocker.  Even his post defense is not very good.  Big project, but I expect he'll go 2nd.

There is no doubt that Griffin is the best player in the nation, and the best NBA prospect.  Do you really think the Wolves would draft him if they had the #1? 
  Post #: 232
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 10:17:47 AM   
TJSweens


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Status: online 		Why are you unsure if his teams will win? Griffin is already a tough defender to go with his inside scoring and monster rebounding. I think he is pretty well the total package in the paint.

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Post #: 233
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 10:22:56 AM   
Guest
quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

I'm very divided on Griffin longterm, just like Beasley, IMO.  Should be a "stat" guy, but I'm not sure his teams will ever win.  Going to be interesting to see.

******************************
The extra year at school and the improvement that came with it is one of the things that separates Griffin from Beasley.  Griffin understands his game much better than Beasley did.  Much better shot selection and a much better defender.

Of course, he hasn't been tested a lot because of the lack of quality bigs in the Big 12, so it will be interesting to see him perform in the tournament.
  Post #: 234
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 10:28:44 AM   
Jim Frenette


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete C

It will be interesting to see how Thabeet responds against Pitt in two weeks.  In fact, they'll probably face eachother two more times this season.  In the meantime, Thabeet will feast on the small lineups UConn has left, with the exception of Pitt.

I'm getting tired of Calhoun campaigning for Thabeet as player of the year.  He's not even the best player in the conference.  As of now, he's nothing more than a shot blocker.  Even his post defense is not very good.  Big project, but I expect he'll go 2nd.

There is no doubt that Griffin is the best player in the nation, and the best NBA prospect.  Do you really think the Wolves would draft him if they had the #1? 


Maybe even #1 since you can't teach height. Look at the other 7+ footers that have gone #1

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Post #: 235
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 10:31:07 AM   
Elliot


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From: North Highland Beach, NJ
Status: offline 		I would be shocked and stunned is Thabeet went first overall.

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Post #: 236
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 10:47:32 AM   
djskillz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Why are you unsure if his teams will win? Griffin is already a tough defender to go with his inside scoring and monster rebounding. I think he is pretty well the total package in the paint.


I think he thrives at the college level, much like Beasley, based on his size and athleticism.  I don't think those 2 are major strengths for him at the pro level.  Strengths, but not significant strengths.  I see Durant, Melo, Beasley much the same way; always have.  I think they're guys who will see multiple all-star games and be very good "stat" guys, but I'm not sure their teams will perform well.  Though Durant's really lucky to have Westbrook with him, who is going to be a super-stud at the PG position.  Just my thought.  It'll be interesting to see.

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"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
Post #: 237
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 11:48:48 AM   
Jeff Jesser


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From: Southern Cal
Status: offline 		What do you guys think of Curry at the pro level?  I don't watch a whole lot of CBB but every time I've seen that kid i've been very impressed.   The Wolves could use a pure scorer like that IMO.  
Post #: 238
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 11:56:03 AM   
TJSweens


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Joined: 7/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Why are you unsure if his teams will win? Griffin is already a tough defender to go with his inside scoring and monster rebounding. I think he is pretty well the total package in the paint.


I think he thrives at the college level, much like Beasley, based on his size and athleticism. 


I'm not meaning to be flippant or start an argument here, but isn't being big, strong, athletic and young the foundation of the argument you keep making on Bynum's behalf?

I also don't see the Beasley comparison. Beasley is about an average sized wing player. Griffin is a big ass powerhouse in the paint. There really isn't much similarity in their games at all.

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Post #: 239
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 12:00:45 PM   
Elliot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Why are you unsure if his teams will win? Griffin is already a tough defender to go with his inside scoring and monster rebounding. I think he is pretty well the total package in the paint.


I think he thrives at the college level, much like Beasley, based on his size and athleticism. 


I'm not meaning to be flippant or start an argument here, but isn't being big, strong, athletic and young the foundation of the argument you keep making on Bynum's behalf?

I also don't see the Beasley comparison. Beasley is about an average sized wing player. Griffin is a big ass powerhouse in the paint. There really isn't much similarity in their games at all.


Beasley also earned himself a reputation of being somewhat immature.  I've heard nothing like that about Griffin.

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Post #: 240
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 12:48:27 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Why are you unsure if his teams will win? Griffin is already a tough defender to go with his inside scoring and monster rebounding. I think he is pretty well the total package in the paint.


I think he thrives at the college level, much like Beasley, based on his size and athleticism. 


I'm not meaning to be flippant or start an argument here, but isn't being big, strong, athletic and young the foundation of the argument you keep making on Bynum's behalf?

I also don't see the Beasley comparison. Beasley is about an average sized wing player. Griffin is a big ass powerhouse in the paint. There really isn't much similarity in their games at all.


I think you missed the key part of that; Bynum's clearly translates to the pro level (ie his size works there).  And Bynum never played college either, so that's really a bad comparison.  Bynum is the youngest player in the history of the NBA to ever suit up.  I don't see Griffin's translating in the same way, but we'll see.  I do like him a bit more than Beasley though, because of his size and I think he's actually more explosive. 

Like I said, I think he'll be a good pro probably; probably even a multi-time all-star.  But I'm just not sure I see him helping his team a lot (like I see Durant/Beasley/Melo) or winning.  Time will tell.

< Message edited by djskillz -- 2/17/2009 12:49:27 PM >

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Post #: 241
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 1:13:51 PM   
David Levine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

I'm very divided on Griffin longterm, just like Beasley, IMO.  Should be a "stat" guy, but I'm not sure his teams will ever win.  Going to be interesting to see.


I've never understood this argument. To me the biggest thing that separates a "winner" from a "stat guy" is circumstance. Does he have championship caliber players around him? Does he have a good coach with a good system?

The only exception is if there is actually something wrong mentally with the guy - Carmelo suffered from this for most of his early career, but seems to actually be getting over it.

Kevin Durant can be the #1 guy on a championship team - he's that good. He's an almost scarily efficient scorer, very solid rebounder and has the tools to be a good defender. His scoring and rebounding are in line with what LeBron was doing at 20. He doesn't get the assists, but he shoots a MUCH better percent than LeBron. He also has more career game winning shots than LBJ. And he's 20 years old with a year and a half of NBA experience. To pigeonhole him this soon seems like a bias more than anything.
Post #: 242
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 1:15:07 PM   
David Levine


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Status: offline 		I just can't wrap my head around why a Derek Rose or OJ Mayo would be considered "winners" and Kevin Durant and Blake Griffin "stat guys"?
Post #: 243
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 1:25:46 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		If you read Pete's posting of that Michael Lewis article, that pretty much sums up my exact feelings on this and my feelings on general stats (like scoring/rebounding) in basketball.  Sometimes guys with great stats (Arenas is an example of this) don't necessarily help the TEAM as much as they could.  That's the way I see those guys above. 

I think Rose, however, will greatly help his TEAM over his career.  To me Kobe has finally become a guy that is a "team" guy in recent years and now he can win.  And of course him and Shaq were a pretty much unstoppable combo before that.

To each their own, but I definitely make a distinction between "team" guys and "me" guys.  And I just personally feel all of those 4 guys I mention are the "me" type.  JMO.

_____________________________

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
Post #: 244
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 6:02:04 PM   
Steve Lentz


Posts: 36149
Joined: 7/19/2007
From: Omaha
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete C

It will be interesting to see how Thabeet responds against Pitt in two weeks.  In fact, they'll probably face eachother two more times this season.  In the meantime, Thabeet will feast on the small lineups UConn has left, with the exception of Pitt.

I'm getting tired of Calhoun campaigning for Thabeet as player of the year.  He's not even the best player in the conference.  As of now, he's nothing more than a shot blocker.  Even his post defense is not very good.  Big project, but I expect he'll go 2nd.

There is no doubt that Griffin is the best player in the nation, and the best NBA prospect.  Do you really think the Wolves would draft him if they had the #1? 


ABSOLUTELY! For the very reason you stated Pete, he's easily the best player in the nation. If the Wolves didn't want to keep him they could certainly package him for more than Thabeet or Hardin could bring.

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" I believe empathy is the most essential quality of civilization"
Post #: 245
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 6:17:52 PM   
Elliot


Posts: 3590
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: North Highland Beach, NJ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete C

It will be interesting to see how Thabeet responds against Pitt in two weeks.  In fact, they'll probably face eachother two more times this season.  In the meantime, Thabeet will feast on the small lineups UConn has left, with the exception of Pitt.

I'm getting tired of Calhoun campaigning for Thabeet as player of the year.  He's not even the best player in the conference.  As of now, he's nothing more than a shot blocker.  Even his post defense is not very good.  Big project, but I expect he'll go 2nd.

There is no doubt that Griffin is the best player in the nation, and the best NBA prospect.  Do you really think the Wolves would draft him if they had the #1? 


ABSOLUTELY! For the very reason you stated Pete, he's easily the best player in the nation. If the Wolves didn't want to keep him they could certainly package him for more than Thabeet or Hardin could bring.


They could probably get Harden plus $1,000,000.  That's some serious coin!

_____________________________

Life is just what happens to you,
While you're busy making other plans

~ John Lennon
Post #: 246
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 7:18:08 PM   
Guest
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

I'm very divided on Griffin longterm, just like Beasley, IMO.  Should be a "stat" guy, but I'm not sure his teams will ever win.  Going to be interesting to see.


I've never understood this argument. To me the biggest thing that separates a "winner" from a "stat guy" is circumstance. Does he have championship caliber players around him? Does he have a good coach with a good system?

The only exception is if there is actually something wrong mentally with the guy - Carmelo suffered from this for most of his early career, but seems to actually be getting over it.

Kevin Durant can be the #1 guy on a championship team - he's that good. He's an almost scarily efficient scorer, very solid rebounder and has the tools to be a good defender. His scoring and rebounding are in line with what LeBron was doing at 20. He doesn't get the assists, but he shoots a MUCH better percent than LeBron. He also has more career game winning shots than LBJ. And he's 20 years old with a year and a half of NBA experience. To pigeonhole him this soon seems like a bias more than anything.

*************************
So if somehow Griffin ended up on the Lakers, Celtics or Cavs, that would be the end of them?
  Post #: 247
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 7:19:28 PM   
Guest
quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Lentz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete C

It will be interesting to see how Thabeet responds against Pitt in two weeks.  In fact, they'll probably face eachother two more times this season.  In the meantime, Thabeet will feast on the small lineups UConn has left, with the exception of Pitt.

I'm getting tired of Calhoun campaigning for Thabeet as player of the year.  He's not even the best player in the conference.  As of now, he's nothing more than a shot blocker.  Even his post defense is not very good.  Big project, but I expect he'll go 2nd.

There is no doubt that Griffin is the best player in the nation, and the best NBA prospect.  Do you really think the Wolves would draft him if they had the #1? 


ABSOLUTELY! For the very reason you stated Pete, he's easily the best player in the nation. If the Wolves didn't want to keep him they could certainly package him for more than Thabeet or Hardin could bring.

************************************
It would be interesting what they would do.  They'd certainly be loaded at the PF position. 
  Post #: 248
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 10:35:03 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete C

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

I'm very divided on Griffin longterm, just like Beasley, IMO.  Should be a "stat" guy, but I'm not sure his teams will ever win.  Going to be interesting to see.


I've never understood this argument. To me the biggest thing that separates a "winner" from a "stat guy" is circumstance. Does he have championship caliber players around him? Does he have a good coach with a good system?

The only exception is if there is actually something wrong mentally with the guy - Carmelo suffered from this for most of his early career, but seems to actually be getting over it.

Kevin Durant can be the #1 guy on a championship team - he's that good. He's an almost scarily efficient scorer, very solid rebounder and has the tools to be a good defender. His scoring and rebounding are in line with what LeBron was doing at 20. He doesn't get the assists, but he shoots a MUCH better percent than LeBron. He also has more career game winning shots than LBJ. And he's 20 years old with a year and a half of NBA experience. To pigeonhole him this soon seems like a bias more than anything.

*************************
So if somehow Griffin ended up on the Lakers, Celtics or Cavs, that would be the end of them?


No, because then he'd be a 4th guy on the team.  I'm saying that as a FIRST option I'm not sure if he'll ever be a "winner".  It's a bit like "2nd" players.  KG is a great great player but I always said he'd never win a title as a 1st option.  And well, I still don't think he did.  Pierce stepped up and had a wonderful finals and was the "1" on that team at the end IMO.

_____________________________

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
Post #: 249
RE: College Basketball - 2/17/2009 10:49:08 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		Oh, and there's nothing wrong with being a "great" #2.  Not at all.  Just saying that that's what I view Durant/Beasley/Griffin/Melo as on a a title team, personally.  At least right now.

And DL mentioned Mayo, well, I said the same thing about him too.  I still view him as that.  Kind of an Arenas type.

_____________________________

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
Post #: 250
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