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RE: dinner ettiquette - 7/11/2012 7:21:47 PM

Lynn G.

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You'll have to listen, but I think you'll agree he is very humble about it. He acknowledges the hold the drug had on him and what it took to get away from it. It was very interesting.

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RE: dinner ettiquette - 7/11/2012 9:41:16 PM

Ricky J

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynn G.
You'll have to listen ....

I'm trying but it won't let me. I posted on Facebook that it didn't work for me and someone (Chad?) said he tried it at home and it works. ???

< Message edited by Ricky J -- 7/11/2012 9:42:21 PM >

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RE: dinner ettiquette - 7/11/2012 10:37:30 PM

Lynn G.

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Is this the link you tried?

http://cbsminnesota.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dubay-interview-full.mp3

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RE: dinner ettiquette - 7/11/2012 11:54:15 PM

SoMnFan

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Thanks for the link Lynn.
Glad to hear his voice again.

< Message edited by SoMnFan -- 7/12/2012 1:06:44 AM >

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RE: dinner ettiquette - 7/12/2012 5:41:57 AM

Ricky J

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynn G.

Is this the link you tried?

http://cbsminnesota.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dubay-interview-full.mp3

That's going to work! Thank you. I see on facebook they sent me a link, also!

Post #: 255

RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/12/2012 7:43:09 AM

Lynn G.

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I'm curious to hear the impressions from you guys once you listen.

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RE: dinner ettiquette - 7/12/2012 8:58:51 AM

joejitsu

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I hope Dubay has finally gotten ahold of his problems with drugs. Where I grew up, the rate of drug abuse was very high, and I personally know several people who still live in the basement of mom and dad's house in between rehab stints and homeless shelters, all because of heroin or cocaine. That stuff is the Devil, and anyone who beats it deserves some respect.

Post #: 257

RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/12/2012 9:16:31 AM

Lynn G.

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The interesting thing about the Dubay situation is that, according to him, he never even tried the stuff until a couple of years ago when he was going through a divorce. He was totally down in the dumps and in a real dark place and when someone brought out the rock cocaine he didn't even know what it was. But once he found out, he thought that perhaps he could take it and just basically check out for a couple of days so he wouldn't have to feel so low - and he was instantly hooked.

You're right Joe - that stuff is the devil. Too many lives completely destroyed by coke, heroin, meth and a bunch of others.

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RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/12/2012 9:44:09 AM

RBIrving

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I'm happy to hear he's found his way out of the darkness. Cocaine is an evil mistress.

One point I would make is that anything that is physically addicting is an addiction for life. Even nicotine. I've been off ciggiebutts for more than 25 years and it is still an addiction hiding in wait for a moment of weakness to get me to light up again. Cocaine is far more dangerous because it has the ability to destroy the pleasure center in your brain. Most are unable to regain the simple enjoyments of life after an extended life in the darkness of cocaine addiction.

Even so, I'd much rather it was legal and controlled. The hardest part about saving people from Cocaine is your family rarely knows the depth of your problem until after the police are involved and you've been pulled into the criminal justice system. Addiction is strictly a healthcare issue and needs to find it's way to that level in our society.

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RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/12/2012 10:22:39 AM

Lynn G.

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I don't know. Dubay credits that first arrest with setting him on the course that ultimately led to his sobriety. If something like that is legal you take away the big stomp that for many is what is needed to quit.

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Post #: 260

RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/12/2012 10:30:26 AM

drviking

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RBIrving

I'm happy to hear he's found his way out of the darkness. Cocaine is an evil mistress.

One point I would make is that anything that is physically addicting is an addiction for life. Even nicotine. I've been off ciggiebutts for more than 25 years and it is still an addiction hiding in wait for a moment of weakness to get me to light up again. Cocaine is far more dangerous because it has the ability to destroy the pleasure center in your brain. Most are unable to regain the simple enjoyments of life after an extended life in the darkness of cocaine addiction.

Even so, I'd much rather it was legal and controlled. The hardest part about saving people from Cocaine is your family rarely knows the depth of your problem until after the police are involved and you've been pulled into the criminal justice system. Addiction is strictly a healthcare issue and needs to find it's way to that level in our society.

hmmm......i am pretty free choice kinda guy....but legal cocaine.....

i dunno....

not sure i see a benefit to legalizing it....

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Post #: 261

RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/12/2012 10:54:58 AM

Trekgeekscott

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quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

quote:

ORIGINAL: RBIrving

I'm happy to hear he's found his way out of the darkness. Cocaine is an evil mistress.

One point I would make is that anything that is physically addicting is an addiction for life. Even nicotine. I've been off ciggiebutts for more than 25 years and it is still an addiction hiding in wait for a moment of weakness to get me to light up again. Cocaine is far more dangerous because it has the ability to destroy the pleasure center in your brain. Most are unable to regain the simple enjoyments of life after an extended life in the darkness of cocaine addiction.

Even so, I'd much rather it was legal and controlled. The hardest part about saving people from Cocaine is your family rarely knows the depth of your problem until after the police are involved and you've been pulled into the criminal justice system. Addiction is strictly a healthcare issue and needs to find it's way to that level in our society.

hmmm......i am pretty free choice kinda guy....but legal cocaine.....

i dunno....

not sure i see a benefit to legalizing it....

By making stuff like that legal, you can control it better, regulate it, tax it. Keeping illegal makes it something the black market profits on it. It's also easier and quicker to identify those who are using.

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RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/12/2012 11:48:39 AM

RBIrving

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As my grandma told me, one of the things we should have learned from Prohibition is that you can't control anything that's illegal. By making it illegal you put into the hands of criminals with no means of regulating it.

I'm not saying just open it up to sell it from vending machines. Instead of us paying for our government's inablility to legislate morality, it should be readily available and highly taxed so that those who use it are the ones paying to educate and help those who get caught up in it, without destroying their family in the process.

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Post #: 263

RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/12/2012 12:46:05 PM

Lynn G.

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That's a pretty defeatist attitude. It's like saying that nothing should be illegal because it's a pain in the neck to enforce laws.

You think that just legalizing something and putting high taxes on it means there will no longer be black market activity in the trade? Nothing would be changed. People would still sell the stuff underground, but this time it would be to avoid the taxes rather than John Law.

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RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/12/2012 12:58:14 PM

bohumm

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I think the answer lies in using the criminal justice system to deal first with the addiction, then with punishment at increasing intervals. Addicts need consequences to recover, and for some, the criminal justice system is the only consequence to get their attention. It may be more expensive in some ways in the short run, and addicts and their families will try to game the system as part of the disease, but jailing addicts is also futile if there's limits to the real, effective help available. No easy answers, obviously, and I would make weed an exception even though it's hardly benign.

I agree with RBI's underlying premise, but I would keep all effective weapons available to fight the beast, because addiction is a motherfucker that will take fire from every angle and still win in many (most?) cases.

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RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/12/2012 1:40:24 PM

RBIrving

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynn G.

That's a pretty defeatist attitude. It's like saying that nothing should be illegal because it's a pain in the neck to enforce laws.

You think that just legalizing something and putting high taxes on it means there will no longer be black market activity in the trade? Nothing would be changed. People would still sell the stuff underground, but this time it would be to avoid the taxes rather than John Law.

I think you simply don't understand what I'm saying. You can't control it all if it's illegal because you can't legislate morality and you shouldn't try. How many years of the war on drugs and what has been the affect on recreational drug use? Pretty much no change.

Case in point alcohol. We only go so far to control the sale and use of alcohol, when it was illegal we couldn't control it at all. In the case of Cocaine, the high end users are the ones that keep it pumping into the country. Why would they risk purchasing something illegal when they could buy it legally? Quality and purity can be guaranteed in the controlled case but not in the case of the black market version.

You don't just slap a tax on it and walk away. You control it start to finish. You allow existing pharmaceutical companies to purchase and distribute it via existing pharmacies. Put any other controls you want on it, including heavy penalties for illegal sales specifically targeting those that sell to minors.

The supply for the black market shrinks as soon as it becomes legal because there is no longer the big end buyer on this side of the border.

The defeatest attitude is in believing the only way to keep Americans off of Cocaine is keep it illegal. How has that worked? I'll tell you how, piss poor. What's worse with every move we make someone comes up with some other concoction to try and get around the laws that exist so we end up with people putting god only knows what into their system. It's a flawed was to approach things. Our intention should be to help one another not lock each other up because we don't like what they're doing to themselves.

Everything would change. The hard part would be in breaking the addiction our police departments have on the money they get for "fighting" the war on drugs.

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Post #: 266

RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/12/2012 1:46:04 PM

RBIrving

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

I think the answer lies in using the criminal justice system to deal first with the addiction, then with punishment at increasing intervals. Addicts need consequences to recover, and for some, the criminal justice system is the only consequence to get their attention. It may be more expensive in some ways in the short run, and addicts and their families will try to game the system as part of the disease, but jailing addicts is also futile if there's limits to the real, effective help available. No easy answers, obviously, and I would make weed an exception even though it's hardly benign.

I agree with RBI's underlying premise, but I would keep all effective weapons available to fight the beast, because addiction is a motherfucker that will take fire from every angle and still win in many (most?) cases.

I think in a controlled system, rather than criminal system, it should become evident to family and friends that a loved one is slipping into addiction. They'll have to be upfront about getting it and that makes it more visible. The option to intervene without destroying your entire family economically is greatly increased.

I believe in individual freedom. If you want to throw your life away, that's your choice to make. You've made no choice if it was made for you. If you think legalization would turn us all into addicts, you're simply wrong. The vast majority would still have no desire to do that sort of thing to themselves. What's more educating and protecting our children from drugs would be far simpler if we weren't being hypocrites about all of it.

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RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/12/2012 2:20:11 PM

drviking

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i guess it might be worth a try...

i dont think it will solve many problems.....but it is obvious the way we are doing things now doesnt work that great, either

i have always said let the states decide how they want to approach it.....but that kind of thinking is not good for the central power government we have become

que sera, sera

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RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/12/2012 3:12:00 PM

Ricky J

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I just listened to Dubay. Great story. I thank God I sobered up before there was crack (or that I heard about it -- 26 years clean).

I do believe strongly that it is very dangerous to think like he does and be absolutely certain he'll never use again - kicked it. I hope he doesn't but I prefer to be humble and not give the idea of using any power.

- I have a brother that spent some time on crack. He told me once after he'd been off it for awhile that he would still have horrific nightmares every night after being clean for quite some time

- I can clearly relate to a lot of the things he talks about with regards to his addiction. I loved his honesty. He is clearly taking full credit for everything that has happened to him.

- I'm happy for him.

I've had his address for so long - I think from an article that included the arrest report information - thinking I would write him someday and see how he's doing but never did. I will drop him a line in a minute telling him I really enjoyed his story.

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RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/12/2012 4:38:11 PM

Todd M

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But, he said, he ended up in treatment that was too God-focused . "Don't tell me I have a disease and then tell me the solution is to pray," he told Hartman. "There's a one-size-fits-all approach to treatment that's a little dangerous and a little sad."

Good for him!

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RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/12/2012 4:56:21 PM

Ricky J

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

But, he said, he ended up in treatment that was too God-focused . "Don't tell me I have a disease and then tell me the solution is to pray," he told Hartman. "There's a one-size-fits-all approach to treatment that's a little dangerous and a little sad."

Good for him!

I'm not sure he actually told us how he currently feels about the God thing -- I was waiting for it. I recall he was disappointed that the approach was like the one you mentioned above initially but for him and I see it as being very true that nothing is going to work until you are ready for it to work.

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RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/12/2012 7:22:03 PM

Todd M

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http://talkvikes.gorge.net/tm.aspx?m=742978

Few venture into the everything else thread. Just putting this out there...could be a fun poll, conversation.

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RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/13/2012 7:41:20 AM

RBIrving

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

But, he said, he ended up in treatment that was too God-focused . "Don't tell me I have a disease and then tell me the solution is to pray," he told Hartman. "There's a one-size-fits-all approach to treatment that's a little dangerous and a little sad."

Good for him!

I'm not sure he actually told us how he currently feels about the God thing -- I was waiting for it. I recall he was disappointed that the approach was like the one you mentioned above initially but for him and I see it as being very true that nothing is going to work until you are ready for it to work.

Almost all 12 step programs are modeled after AA which stresses a higher power and spiritual awareness but closes the door on "religion". People do have a tendency to bring their own invisible friend to group and sometimes need to be reminded that the program is not based on their higher power, everyone has to find their own.

We can all find something bigger than ourselves and solution isn't to "pray", it's really about letting go of things we have no control over and focusing on what we can control which turns out to be yourself and nothing more.

The 12 step process is sound, but the variations are many. You really have to find, not only the program that works for you but a group that you fit into. I find that even a lot of Christians are uncomfortable with big g being the focus of the program. That's not what it should be about. You have to be able to do the work yourself, because even your higher power isn't going to change you, you still have to do that work yourself.

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RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/13/2012 8:01:58 AM

Todd M

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quote:

That's not what it should be about. You have to be able to do the work yourself, because even your higher power isn't going to change you, you still have to do that work yourself.

Seems the program promotes just that. That the God part is pretty much the part you have to get right.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to
sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we
understood Him.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with
God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us
and the power to carry that out.

Post #: 274

RE: Vikes Water Cooler Thread - 7/13/2012 8:35:44 AM

RBIrving

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god is a relative term. I think you can have a higher power without having a god.

I have to adjust the steps to fit my own program. The character defect part was particularly difficult, since I don't believe in a "god" that operates in a cause and effect sort of way. What's more I don't believe in "character defects"

Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

For my program I chose music as my higher power. I look at the current "reality" that I'm in as a song, an orchestration. When I'm working step 3 I'm trying to take my own manipulations out of the music and let it play and be a part of it rather trying to shape it myself.

As I said, I don't believe in character flaws or defects. I think all of our characteristics are useful in the right combination and intensities, like the facets of a jewel. When one of mycharacterstics begins to overpower the others, I seek balance(probably because I'm a Libra).

One of the important "rules" is that only conference allowed literature is allowed for reference within a meeting and I am forced to remind people(mostly christians) that their religious tome isn't conference approved, and for a reason. Every program is individual to the person who is working it and there's no room for intolerance.

So, as I see it. my higher power isn't fixing me, isn't changing me, I'm doing that by letting go of those things I have no control over, the things that are driving me to an uncomfortable level of insanity.

Number 11? Meditation on understanding the song that's playing to be a part of it instead of trying to force it to fit my composition. When I'm part of the song and flowing with the universe life is good, happiness becomes an easy choice.

I think part of the problem people have with the whole god/prayer thing is the programming that convinces us that prayer is a quality begging session with your invisible friend, kind of like the wish list you made for Santa when you were little. My "prayer" is meditation on releasing thought, letting go and joining the song of the universe.

Sure, there are beings out there that would qualify as gods when you compare them to our current awareness, but they're not gonna step in. If anything they may be amused by our struggle or interested in our development but they're not gonna interfere it wouldn't be proper.

I'm lucky enough to have a strong and loving group that isn't challenged by my view of the universe and I find it refreshing to know christians that are tolerant of my views that I don't feel the need to "save" from their religion.

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