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RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 3:29:57 PM   
Easy E

 

Posts: 10871
Status: offline 		I have no problem with being told I'm using a strawman. It's a little odd to have you say it's a stawman, and then make the case for it..
Post #: 3226
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 3:39:39 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		I say strawman because you are putting words in our mouths.  No one made a lot of the arguments you suggest.

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Post #: 3227
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 3:41:47 PM   
Easy E

 

Posts: 10871
Status: offline 		You are saying the Jets are totally loaded for bear to the point that it doesn't matter who the QB was, and I say so, and it's a strawman?

Eitehr they are loaded or they aren't.

Will they be better with Favre, or worse, do you think? Instead of claiming strawman, how about just debate the idea with me?
Post #: 3228
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 3:43:22 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

You are saying the Jets are totally loaded for bear to the point that it doesn't matter who the QB was, and I say so, and it's a strawman?

Eitehr they are loaded or they aren't.

Will they be better with Favre, or worse, do you think? Instead of claiming strawman, how about just debate the idea with me?


See, this is my point.  I never said this; none of us did. 

They are fairly loaded, but it does matter who the QB is.  As I said, we just apparently have very differing opinions on how good Favre/Pennington/Clemens are.

_____________________________

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
Post #: 3229
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 3:47:23 PM   
Easy E

 

Posts: 10871
Status: offline 		But yes, I do think that team is pretty loaded.

so the strawman is that I said 'loaded for bear" when what you really said what the are "pretty loaded", the OL has a TON of talent, etc.... ?

That's fine, arguing over words isn't interesting, and we can't talk about the idea, so that's fine. Give Favre whatever credit you want, and I'll do the same.
Post #: 3230
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 3:50:11 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		No, the problem, and what made is strawman, is a statement like this:

quote:

You are saying the Jets are totally loaded for bear to the point that it doesn't matter who the QB was, and I say so, and it's a strawman?


That's completely contrary to what every one of us on this "side" has been arguing.

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Post #: 3231
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 3:52:34 PM   
hrerikl

 

Posts: 1636
Joined: 8/15/2007
Status: offline 		Regarding Detroit,
I can see 4 because their QB play has been so poor.  That is assuming Favre would have been a good citizen in the disaster that is Detroit right now.  I know Favre has a quicker release but I am not so sure that even he could have kept his consecutive game streak alive behind that OLine.  Favre's worst head scratching what was he thinking type games seem to me to come when he has been getting smacked around.  Behind Detroits line, we would probably have seen a lot more of that as well.

< Message edited by hrerikl -- 12/19/2008 3:53:48 PM >
Post #: 3232
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 3:54:03 PM   
Easy E

 

Posts: 10871
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

No, the problem, and what made is strawman, is a statement like this:

quote:

You are saying the Jets are totally loaded for bear to the point that it doesn't matter who the QB was, and I say so, and it's a strawman?


That's completely contrary to what every one of us on this "side" has been arguing.


Dustin, I thought I had understood that you thought Chad Pennington, Clemons, and a whole host of other QBs could have stepped in and done the job that Favre did, or gotten the same results. I was basing this entire discussion on that premise. You are now saying that is not the case, and so I have obviously misunderstood and retract what I said. If you believe that Favre was a key and was needed, or someone very close to his level of play, then there was no point in any of this and I apologize.
Post #: 3233
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 3:55:56 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		Yes, I think you do misunderstand.  No worries.

As I said, Favre is a "good" QB.  They need a QB around his level of play to do what they've done.  Where we differ, again, is our views on Clemens and Pennington as QB's.  I think both can perform around that same level.  You don't.

That's all.  Sorry if I offended at all.  Seems like it was just a misunderstanding there.

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Post #: 3234
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 4:02:08 PM   
hrerikl

 

Posts: 1636
Joined: 8/15/2007
Status: offline 		One other thing on Detroit.

If Detroit had upgraded their O-Line like the Jets did, I think think there is a much better chance that Kitna is still their starting Quarterback, and they are much better off IMO than if they kept the OLine the same and put Favre back there.

Erik
Post #: 3235
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 4:04:18 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hrerikl

One other thing on Detroit.

If Detroit had upgraded their O-Line like the Jets did, I think think there is a much better chance that Kitna is still their starting Quarterback, and they are much better off IMO than if they kept the OLine the same and put Favre back there.

Erik


Agreed.  OL is the Lions' biggest problem IMO.  Add 4 big upgrades on the line there and see what happens.  I bet that's a 8-10 win team.

_____________________________

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
Post #: 3236
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 4:25:11 PM   
Trekgeekscott


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From: United Federation of Planets
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

quote:

ORIGINAL: hrerikl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

How many games would the Lions have won if they had gotten Faneca, do you suppose? Serious question.


I guess the corollary is how many games do you think they would have won with Favre?  Serious question.


About 6.


Ok,  Favre is good...but he is NOT GOD.

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Post #: 3237
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 4:43:06 PM   
Easy E

 

Posts: 10871
Status: offline 		I think if you want to improve a bad team, you do 2 things on offense. Get a good QB and protect him.
Post #: 3238
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 5:13:13 PM   
Guest
quote:

ORIGINAL: Easy E

I think he's a QB that can rank in the top 10 of the league in most stats, throw about 25 TDs and consistently score points.


*********************************
Can or does?

The fact is this season Favre does not rank in the top 10 of the league in most stats.  I posted where he ranks in several categories yesterday.  The numbers are not good.  19th in 4th quarter passer rating.  22nd in red zone passer rating.  15th in overall passer rating.  20th in yards per attempt.  15th in pass plays of 20+.  The only category he ranks in the top ten is in TD's, of course he is also first in interceptions. 
  Post #: 3239
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 8:52:29 PM   
djskillz


Posts: 56863
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		Oh ya; can I revise my statement that he's roughly around top 10?

I'd put him safely in the top 20, but that's about it.

_____________________________

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
Post #: 3240
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 9:39:30 PM   
marty


Posts: 13049
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline 		I don't think the Lions would have gotten 6 wins with Favre.  I'm sticking with the 3 games better, the Lions would have won 3 games compared to 0 (5 if the Lions somehow win their last 2)

I don't think Favre makes ANY team 3 games better, just where he is better than, like Kitna, Pennington (on the same team) and a 1st year Rogers.

I think Favre is a good REGULAR season QB, who got more wins out of a Jet team that has a bad 2ndary, because: he played well, because he gave them new energy, because they strengthened their OL and some of their front 7 on defense, .....

I do NOT think Favre is a great playoff QB, for whatever reason.  He has been very poor since the 2 SB years, where the team carried him.  I really doubt THIS Jets team can carry him, they have a good OL, WRs, RB, special teams and front 7 on defense, but I think they have a pretty poor 2ndary (other than Revis, maybe Law will help some?).
Post #: 3241
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 9:41:30 PM   
Tim Cady

 

Posts: 10549
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Wonderful World
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

The Jags' collapse this year is the single biggest shocking development of this NFL season for me.


I actually predicted that one. I in fact kinda thought they overachieved last year.

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Post #: 3242
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 9:42:10 PM   
marty


Posts: 13049
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline 		The only category he ranks in the top ten is in TD's
 
All he does is throw TDs ?  And wins ?  You'd have to also put top 10 in WINS.

Favre is a GOOD REGULAR season QB.  Not so good in the playoffs, usually.  We'll see what happens this year. 
Post #: 3243
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 9:51:11 PM   
Tim Cady

 

Posts: 10549
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: Wonderful World
Status: offline 		Farve going down in Seattle this week.

Think of the irony. Full circle Farve and Holmgren but full circle for another reason between these two franchises. The Dennis Erickson led Seahawks should have been 10-6 with a young Jon Kitna, but they were screwed in Seattle by the helmet of then Jet Vinnie T....The ball was at his waste and was a yard short. That play cost Seattle the game, the playoffs and Dennis Erickson lost his job.

Enter Holmgren and a complete rebuild of a team that was on the cusp. I always get pissed when the revisionist say that Seattle was a mess when Holmgren got there. Not true, he just replaced the whole team with guys he wanted, he did deserve to win the Super Bowl the year they lost to pittsburgh though. I will give him that.

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Go the extra mile, it's never crowded!
Post #: 3244
RE: NFL News - 12/19/2008 9:55:40 PM   
marty


Posts: 13049
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline 		I think Favre might go down to Pennington the last week.  It's PAYBACK time for Pennington for the Jets won earlier in the year, and Pennington is probably still hot the Jets let him go.  We'll see.
Post #: 3245
RE: NFL News - 12/21/2008 12:10:03 PM   
So.Mn.Fan


Posts: 20313
Status: offline 		Love seeing the Ravens pee on the Cowboys celebration last night.
Sent Texas Stadium out in style.
That soap opera has no business being in the playoffs. Keep 'em out.
Ravens just line up and smash you in the mouth.
Team Obliterator. Someday, every NFL team will stop putting up with the noise, and refuse to keep trash on their roster. Cancer starts inside and eats it's way out.
Post #: 3246
RE: NFL News - 12/21/2008 12:27:03 PM   
John Childress


Posts: 42898
Joined: 7/15/2007
Status: offline 		I agree

They should trade Romo for a couple of #1s

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No more acceptance of mediocrity!!!! EVER!
Post #: 3247
RE: NFL News - 12/21/2008 6:53:14 PM   
John Childress


Posts: 42898
Joined: 7/15/2007
Status: offline 		Like I said, JeMarcus Russell will be a good QB once the Raiders get a coach

_____________________________

No more acceptance of mediocrity!!!! EVER!
Post #: 3248
RE: NFL News - 12/21/2008 6:56:34 PM   
Guest
 How did Mr. Clutch, Brett Favre do today in a must win game against a sorry team?  0 TD's and 2 Interceptions.
Start the re-re-re-retirement talk.
  Post #: 3249
RE: NFL News - 12/21/2008 7:06:48 PM   
John Childress


Posts: 42898
Joined: 7/15/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete C

How did Mr. Clutch, Brett Favre do today in a must win game against a sorry team?  0 TD's and 2 Interceptions.
Start the re-re-re-retirement talk.


FOR REAL

JACKSON IS A BETTER QB NOW

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No more acceptance of mediocrity!!!! EVER!
Post #: 3250
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