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RE: MLB General Information PT 4

 
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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 1:08:21 PM   
twinsfan


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Darin Erstad got a vote.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 1:08:44 PM   
MDK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

All 4 top candidates got in.


4 is nice but still not enough considering how many worthy candidates.


All that talk about Dave Steib got me thinking of the Blue Jays back in 92 and 93. Jack Morris is failed to be resigned by the Twins and wins 21 for the Jays. Steib's career ends but they had some other pretty good pitchers on those two squads.

And then this guy.......

Here is his post season line....not a lot of games but I hope our players learn from him.

29 games 132 PA 117 AB 28 runs 43 hits 5 doubles 3 triples 6 count them 6 HR's 22 rbi's .368 .435 .615 1.050

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 1:13:02 PM   
djskillz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Piazza 70%

Bagwell 56%

Raines 55%

Everyone else under 40%

Raines with a nice 9% jump. But only 2 years left on the ballot because of the new rules. He's not gonna make it.


Wow. That sucks. I guess Piazza will make it next year then. But that's not good for Bagwell/Raines. Raines especially. And the rest of those 7 guys under 40% is ridiculous.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 1:16:52 PM   
twinsfan


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Actually I'm feeling decent about Raines next year. Griffey is the only new guy that's gonna get in. And you figure it's also Piazza's year to get in. However, with the steroid suspicions, some will refuse to vote for him. That's a lot of space left for other votes. Gotta figure Raines is gonna find his way onto a lot of those ballots, especially with the clock ticking.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 1:18:27 PM   
Mr. Ed


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quote:

And the rest of those 7 guys under 40% is ridiculous.



I prefer the term

REALISTIC

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 1:21:13 PM   
djskillz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MDK

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

All 4 top candidates got in.


4 is nice but still not enough considering how many worthy candidates.


All that talk about Dave Steib got me thinking of the Blue Jays back in 92 and 93. Jack Morris is failed to be resigned by the Twins and wins 21 for the Jays. Steib's career ends but they had some other pretty good pitchers on those two squads.

And then this guy.......

Here is his post season line....not a lot of games but I hope our players learn from him.

29 games 132 PA 117 AB 28 runs 43 hits 5 doubles 3 triples 6 count them 6 HR's 22 rbi's .368 .435 .615 1.050


Molitor I'm assuming?

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 1:21:44 PM   
djskillz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Actually I'm feeling decent about Raines next year. Griffey is the only new guy that's gonna get in. And you figure it's also Piazza's year to get in. However, with the steroid suspicions, some will refuse to vote for him. That's a lot of space left for other votes. Gotta figure Raines is gonna find his way onto a lot of those ballots, especially with the clock ticking.


Let's hope so, Matt. The whole voting process should be abolished if Tim Raines doesn't get in the HOF. 2nd best leadoff hitter of our generation, after Rickey.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 1:22:25 PM   
twinsfan


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Next year's class is very weak beyond Griffey and Edmonds. And Edmonds was so underrated that even with a SABR push, he's simply not going to get a ton of votes in his first year. But it's asking a lot for Raines to jump from 55% to 75%. The ballot is still pretty crowded even without the 4 that got in. Although not nearly as crowded as it could have been if Smoltz and Biggio failed to get in this year. I'm cautiously optimistic that Raines gets over 70% next year, and then they put him in the following year (his last chance). Although the ballot gets more crowded again that year with Pudge, Manny and Vlad. Manny has too many ties to PEDs to get in. Not sure if the PED thing has been attached to Pudge completely. He's kind of in that Piazza PED limbo group, right?

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 1:24:11 PM   
twinsfan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Actually I'm feeling decent about Raines next year. Griffey is the only new guy that's gonna get in. And you figure it's also Piazza's year to get in. However, with the steroid suspicions, some will refuse to vote for him. That's a lot of space left for other votes. Gotta figure Raines is gonna find his way onto a lot of those ballots, especially with the clock ticking.


Let's hope so, Matt. The whole voting process should be abolished if Tim Raines doesn't get in the HOF. 2nd best leadoff hitter of our generation, after Rickey.

Not only the 2nd best leadoff hitter of a generation, but the 2nd best leadoff hitter of all-time. Just so happened he played at the same time as the best.

Ichiro might be the next best.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 1:37:51 PM   
djskillz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Actually I'm feeling decent about Raines next year. Griffey is the only new guy that's gonna get in. And you figure it's also Piazza's year to get in. However, with the steroid suspicions, some will refuse to vote for him. That's a lot of space left for other votes. Gotta figure Raines is gonna find his way onto a lot of those ballots, especially with the clock ticking.


Let's hope so, Matt. The whole voting process should be abolished if Tim Raines doesn't get in the HOF. 2nd best leadoff hitter of our generation, after Rickey.

Not only the 2nd best leadoff hitter of a generation, but the 2nd best leadoff hitter of all-time. Just so happened he played at the same time as the best.

Ichiro might be the next best.


Yep. I've never been a big Ichiro guy (he's a TRUE singles hitter, unlike unsubstantiated claims in here), but he will likely get in due to his career in Japan as well.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 1:39:52 PM   
djskillz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Next year's class is very weak beyond Griffey and Edmonds. And Edmonds was so underrated that even with a SABR push, he's simply not going to get a ton of votes in his first year. But it's asking a lot for Raines to jump from 55% to 75%. The ballot is still pretty crowded even without the 4 that got in. Although not nearly as crowded as it could have been if Smoltz and Biggio failed to get in this year. I'm cautiously optimistic that Raines gets over 70% next year, and then they put him in the following year (his last chance). Although the ballot gets more crowded again that year with Pudge, Manny and Vlad. Manny has too many ties to PEDs to get in. Not sure if the PED thing has been attached to Pudge completely. He's kind of in that Piazza PED limbo group, right?


Ya, good points. You gotta figure Piazza and Griffey are locks next year, but maybe not anyone else. Hopefully Bagwell and Raines both get 70% or close, and then that tide can lift them in 2017. Pudge will be a lock in his first year, depending on the steroid treatment. But Manny/Vlad probably won't be. So that should give some ample leeway to get a bunch of these guys more votes.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 1:49:42 PM   
djskillz


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More good stuff from Buster:

Definition of a Hall of Famer grows murkier
By Buster Olney | ESPN Insider

MLB's all-time HR leader (Barry Bonds) and Cy Young winner (Roger Clemens) aren't in the Hall.
I was 8 years old when I got my first book on baseball, "The Baseball Life of Sandy Koufax," and as my interest in the game grew, my mother -- who actually didn't like sports -- kept finding age-appropriate books for me on the topic.

There were obtuse references to Babe Ruth's active off-field life and Ty Cobb's difficult personality. I recall reading that Grover Cleveland was a little sleepy before being called on to pitch in relief in the 1926 World Series and striking out Tony Lazzeri. Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford were great friends, I learned, who had a lot of fun together when they weren't at the ballpark.

The details were more complicated than that, of course, but the common denominator for all of them, the reason they were written about, is that they were great ballplayers. Their accomplishments ultimately propelled them beyond what is generally considered the ultimate standard for greatness, the threshold for induction into the Hall of Fame.

But in 2015, what does being a Hall of Famer really mean?

Somewhere along the way, something has changed. It's a benchmark for something, but what that is exactly is increasingly hard to define.

Accumulating the most hits in baseball history? That doesn't make you a Hall of Famer, as Pete Rose will attest.

Hitting the most homers? Nope. Barry Bonds knows that.

Winning the most Cy Young Awards? No. Just ask Roger Clemens.

Being the greatest-hitting catcher of all time doesn't make you a Hall of Famer because Mike Piazza has failed to come close to election. One of the best postseason performers of all time, Curt Schilling, is not a Hall of Famer. Alex Rodriguez will finish his career with three Most Valuable Player awards and Manny Ramirez is regarded by a lot of his peers as the greatest hitter of his generation, and they almost certainly won't be elected to the Hall of Fame.

So is being a Hall of Famer about acing the personality criteria in the character clause (integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played)? Is this like the talent portion of a beauty contest?

Apparently not, because nobody has been more of a servant to the sport than Jim Kaat, whose candidacy has been rejected by voters almost 20 times. Dale Murphy was a two-time MVP and a great guy, and he didn't come close to being elected.

And some of the current Hall of Famers don't seem to meet the standards set forth in the character clause, if applied precisely. Gaylord Perry has made a post-career living telling everybody how he cheated. Cobb discussed throwing a game, at the very least, based on letters he exchanged with another player. Ruth and Mantle were incapacitated occasionally because of their off-field pursuits to the point of either being unavailable or compromised.

They are hardly alone, of course. Given that the Hall of Fame has inducted human beings, flaws and all, there are a lot of current Hall of Famers who wouldn't seem to meet the character clause, which, by the way, is believed to have been written by former commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis, at about the same time he labored to keep the sport segregated.

So is the Hall of Fame about the best players who didn't use any substances to enhance their play?

Well, no. Some current Hall of Famers have acknowledged taking amphetamines, the sort of stuff that, if taken in 2015, would cause them to test positive and be suspended. In retirement, Tony Gwynn said he believed most of his peers used what were known as greenies. Let's face it, the venue of professional sports has never been a model as a drug-free America. You'd have to be naïve to believe that the Hall of Fame hasn't already honored one or more players who used steroids in their day, and that others will follow, whether we know about it or not.

Are Hall of Famers the best players who haven't been banned or suspended, such as Joe Jackson and Pete Rose? Apparently not. Bonds and Clemens were among the 86 players thrown to the mob in the Mitchell Report, but Major League Baseball never suspended either player, and they haven't been elected.

In fact, Bonds and Clemens are club employees under MLB's umbrella, as are Mark McGwire and many others linked in one way or another to the use of performance-enhancing drugs. As far as MLB is concerned, Bonds is a citizen in good standing, unlike Rose or Jackson, and so is Clemens. And the Hall of Fame included them on their ballot, unlike Rose.

So what is a Hall of Famer?

This could be the current working definition: A player who had excellent production during his career; a player who appeared to play clean, a complete subjective matter, because there's really no way to prove exactly who used and who didn't.

A Hall of Famer is a great player who didn't add too much muscle or suffer from back acne so prominent that he draws the suspicion of writers; a great player who had the terrific good luck of not having a bitter ex-wife or trainer who turned on them; a great player who wasn't so great that he drew the attention of federal investigators.

A debilitating use of alcohol or recreational drugs is not considered disqualifying, nor is domestic abuse, family abandonment, racism, assault, alleged connection to game-fixing and other misdemeanors and felonies. But the use of Adderall without a therapeutic use exemption is disqualifying.

Got that?

The quagmire is absurd, and the Hall of Fame is not helping. Last summer, the Hall unilaterally invoked new rules related to the voting for the first time in more than two decades, reducing the time that a player appears on the ballot from 15 years to 10.

It's the prerogative of the folks running the Hall to handle the vote as they want, and only they know for sure the motive behind the change. It has been excruciating to see accomplished players such as Tony Oliva, Bert Blyleven, Goose Gossage, Jack Morris and Dale Murphy hang on the ballot year after year after year, facing the same questions annually and having the worthiness of their careers debated publicly far too long after their final games. Really, there's something incredibly disrespectful about that, and if relief is gained for some candidates through quicker resolution of the process, that's a good thing.

But Hall's rule change has been widely interpreted as a direct shot at the candidates linked to performance-enhancing drugs, because the time for the voting body to muse over PED candidates is significantly curtailed. Suddenly, the clock on Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Piazza, Jeff Bagwell, Sammy Sosa and others is accelerated. If Bagwell is not among the candidates who gain election Tuesday -- it's expected that he won't be -- then he'll have only five years remaining to collect enough votes, rather than 10.

McGwire will have just one year left, an extremely important development, because he was the first notable player linked to PEDs to appear on a Hall of Fame ballot, and once judgment on him is final, precedent will be solidified.

Mark McGwire was selected on just 11.0 percent of the ballots for the 2014 Hall of Fame class.
McGwire clubbed 583 homers, 10th most in history, and he set the single-season record for homers in 1998, helping to revitalize the sport in the public conscience. His significance in baseball history is inarguable, and by the standards of the Hall of Fame voting through 2005, he would be a slam-dunk candidate. But McGwire has never polled 25 percent, following his admission of the use of performance-enhancing drugs, and moving forward, it will be very difficult for any voter to reject McGwire and somehow justify votes for Bonds, Clemens, Ramirez, Rodriguez and many others.

But as written here and elsewhere, the new rule may have tremendous collateral damage on other candidates such as Mike Mussina, Tim Raines and others. Nate Silver wrote last summer about how some of those players will be impacted.

And at a meeting of the Baseball Writers' Association of America at the winter meetings, voters were informed that the Hall of Fame is not interested in opening up the ballot so that writers can vote for more than 10 candidates. It's hard to understand any rationale for not letting this happen, for not simply allowing candidates to be judged on whether their careers are Hall of Fame worthy. The "Rule of 10" is completely arbitrary, as is the writers' recommendation to expand the maximum to 12.

If the Hall wants to keep the players linked to PEDs out of the Hall of Fame, perhaps because of the private sentiments of current Hall of Famers or Major League Baseball, then it should take a stand, rather than hiding behind the writers.

The reduction of the years in ballot eligibility and the retention of the character clause, which voters essentially ignored for about six decades, look more and more like a baseball version of gerrymandering.

It's worth remembering: The Baseball Hall of Fame is a baseball museum. It's not a house of holy. Those inducted haven't had to be saints, and it's time for the Hall of Fame and the writers to understand that, because if we cannot define the honor of being a Hall of Famer, then the honor is in jeopardy of losing its relevance.

There is a better way: Give the best players a plaque, and if there is important PED-related information related to their time in baseball, put it on the plaque.


Then let the patrons of the Hall of Fame decide for themselves what it means, not writers caught in the morass of voting rules that are either antiquated or Machiavellian.


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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 1:54:09 PM   
Mr. Ed


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quote:

It's worth remembering: The Baseball Hall of Fame is a baseball museum. It's not a house of holy. Those inducted haven't had to be saints, and it's time for the Hall of Fame and the writers to understand that, because if we cannot define the honor of being a Hall of Famer, then the honor is in jeopardy of losing its relevance.

There is a better way: Give the best players a plaque, and if there is important PED-related information related to their time in baseball, put it on the plaque.


I would agree with this.

Some of these writers are treating it much too "sacred".

All that really started with Pete Rose.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 2:45:10 PM   
Trekgeekscott


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

quote:

It's worth remembering: The Baseball Hall of Fame is a baseball museum. It's not a house of holy. Those inducted haven't had to be saints, and it's time for the Hall of Fame and the writers to understand that, because if we cannot define the honor of being a Hall of Famer, then the honor is in jeopardy of losing its relevance.

There is a better way: Give the best players a plaque, and if there is important PED-related information related to their time in baseball, put it on the plaque.


I would agree with this.

Some of these writers are treating it much too "sacred".

All that really started with Pete Rose.


The Writers have never had a single word to say on Rose via voting. He's never been on the ballott. And that was his own doing.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 2:52:30 PM   
El Duderino


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The PED-tainted players can wait to get in until after Pete Rose, as far as I'm concerned. As unrepentant as Rose has been, and as big a problem as gambling was in the early days of the game, gambling had absolutely nothing to do with his greatness on the field.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 2:56:45 PM   
djskillz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: El Duderino

The PED-tainted players can wait to get in until after Pete Rose, as far as I'm concerned. As unrepentant as Rose has been, and as big a problem as gambling was in the early days of the game, gambling had absolutely nothing to do with his greatness on the field.


How do you know who used PED's and who didn't? Bonds and Clemens have never been suspended for PED's. Rickey Henderson certainly seems like a very, very likely PED candidate, and he's in. So are dozens of others that are in. Including very possible with any of the 4 that just got elected today. Seems like an incredible double standard and completely left to subjective reasoning.

Also, many of the guys from the 60's; Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc. used greenies for games to "get up for" games or "enhance" their natural performances. No big deal there, apparently. Or Perry openly admitting cheating and doctoring the ball. Cobb doing all sorts of things.

We have no idea who used or who didn't; ditto for the players still playing the game today, in all sports. So let's stop with the witch hunts and just base these things on what happened on the field. And many of these guys NOT elected today were some of the greatest players to ever play the game. Let them in or pretend that an entire generation of baseball didn't happen and let NO ONE in.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 3:20:43 PM   
El Duderino


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Fine. Let Pete Rose in first.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 3:26:14 PM   
Black 47

 

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Did Rose ever bet against his team and throw games?
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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 3:36:51 PM   
Mr. Ed


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ORIGINAL: Black 47

Did Rose ever bet against his team and throw games?

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/08/why-pete-rose-still-cant-be-absolved/378866/

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 3:37:39 PM   
Black 47

 

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Just did a little of my own crack research. Looks like he only bet on his team to win.............but he didn't bet on every game...............so in a way, if he's only betting on his team to win certain games, the games he didn't bet on he was essentially betting on them to lose.
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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 3:45:39 PM   
Black 47

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black 47

Did Rose ever bet against his team and throw games?

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/08/why-pete-rose-still-cant-be-absolved/378866/

Good read. Thanks Ed.
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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 3:57:28 PM   
Black 47

 

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Dave Stieb was a damn good pitcher. I remember he faced Bert Blyleven in the 1988 home opener. The Twins roughed him up a little bit and we won 6-3. Nice start to a ROUGH season for Blyleven. Man, just looking at that box score now. Tom Kelly HATED Tim Laudner. Tom Nieto was the starting catcher in 1987 before he got hurt. Then they won a championship with Laudner at catcher and Kelly still went back to Tom Nieto in 1988.
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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 4:40:16 PM   
djskillz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: El Duderino

Fine. Let Pete Rose in first.


No issue with that.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 6:41:29 PM   
twinsfan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Black 47

Dave Stieb was a damn good pitcher. I remember he faced Bert Blyleven in the 1988 home opener. The Twins roughed him up a little bit and we won 6-3. Nice start to a ROUGH season for Blyleven. Man, just looking at that box score now. Tom Kelly HATED Tim Laudner. Tom Nieto was the starting catcher in 1987 before he got hurt. Then they won a championship with Laudner at catcher and Kelly still went back to Tom Nieto in 1988.

Pretty sure the Twins won in spite of Laudner. No reason TK shouldn't have been looking for an upgrade.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/6/2015 7:23:59 PM   
twinsfan


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Why didn't Kevin Millar make the HOF ballot? Retired the same year as the other 1st timers on this ballot. Had over 10 years in MLB. Played a lot in those years. Doesn't make sense to me why he wouldn't be included. What separates Kevin Millar from Jacque Jones? Frenchy was on the ballot last year (and received a vote).

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