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RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/9/2015 8:41:41 PM   
SoMnFan


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Ranking Head Coaches by Strategic Decision-Making
ESPN INSIDER


Andrew Healy

On a week-to-week basis, almost no decision-makers receive as much scrutiny and second-guessing as the 32 men patrolling NFL sidelines. Go for it or kick? Pull out that red challenge flag or keep it in its hiding place? Call that timeout or let the clock continue to tick away? An NFL head coach confronts these strategic dilemmas knowing his calls can make the difference between winning and losing and whether he keeps his job or loses it.

Today we've got a metric -- call it Strategy Score -- to rank all 32 head coaches according to how well they handle these decisions. The coaches at the top make the calls that consistently put their teams in the best position to win. They stay aggressive when other coaches chicken out and avoid the head-scratching mistakes that bedevil others in the heat of the moment.

Strategy Score consists of three components:

Fourth-down aggressiveness: The numbers make it clear that coaches don't go for it on fourth down nearly enough. I look at all fourth-down decisions in the first three quarters -- since in the fourth quarter the game situation often dictates the decision -- and control for the score, distance to go, and the location on the field. A coach gets assigned a number that represents the extra number of times he would have gone for it on fourth down, facing the same game situation, compared to the league's most conservative coach (Mike McCoy of the San Diego Chargers).

Challenge mistakes: I went through all challenges made -- and not made -- to identify the cases where coaches made clear mistakes. Upon review, many challenges that failed were not clear mistakes since they were worth a try, either because of the game situation or because the tape showed the call was extremely close. There were even a couple cases where a successful challenge was a mistake because it gained little and left a team without further challenges.

Clock management mistakes: I reviewed end-of-half and end-of-game clock management decisions to find games where coaches made mistakes that had a substantial impact on a team's chances of winning. These mistakes are mostly about timeouts, but I squeezed in a couple egregious late-game field goal attempts. Pass vs. run decisions need to be indefensible to make the cut, since there is often a reasonable argument to go either way.

A coach's Strategy Score is just his aggressiveness number minus the total number of mistakes. For the interim coaches, the mistakes are prorated to the full slate of 11 games.

Ranking NFL Coaches by Strategy Score

Rank

Coach

Team

4th Down

Chall Mistakes

Clock Mistakes

Strategy Score


1 Ron Rivera CAR 7.00 1 0 6.00
2 Mike McCarthy GB 5.71 1 1 3.71
3 Bill Belichick NE 4.47 1 0 3.47
4 Jay Gruden WAS 4.22 0 1 3.22
5 Dan Quinn ATL 5.10 1 1 3.10
6 Mike Zimmer MIN 3.92 1 0 2.92
7 Chip Kelly PHI 4.24 1 1 2.24
8 Lovie Smith TB 4.86 3 0 1.86
9 Pete Carroll SEA 3.76 1 1 1.76
10 Jack Del Rio OAK 3.75 2 0 1.75
11 Jim Caldwell DET 3.23 1 1 1.23
12 Todd Bowles NYJ 4.05 2 1 1.05
13 Gary Kubiak DEN 2.99 2 0 0.99
14 Bill O'Brien HOU 2.86 2 0 0.86
15 Jason Garrett DAL 3.38 2 1 0.38
16 Marvin Lewis CIN 4.32 2 2 0.32
17 Dan Campbell MIA 1.25 0 1 0.25
18 Gus Bradley JAC 2.02 2 0 0.02
19 Andy Reid KC 3.99 2 2 -0.01
20 Bruce Arians ARI 1.94 1 1 -0.06
21 Jeff Fisher STL 2.71 2 1 -0.29
22 Mike Mularkey TEN 0.63 1 0 -0.37
23 Mike Tomlin PIT 1.27 0 2 -0.73
24 Sean Payton NO 3.09 3 1 -0.91
25 Mike McCoy SD 0.00 0 1 -1.00
26 John Fox CHI 1.45 1 2 -1.55
27 John Harbaugh BAL 3.69 5 1 -2.31
28 Chuck Pagano IND 1.49 4 0 -2.51
29 Tom Coughlin NYG 2.00 2 3 -3.00
30 Jim Tomsula SF 2.44 5 1 -3.56
31 Rex Ryan BUF 2.21 6 0 -3.79
32 Mike Pettine CLE 1.19 3 4 -5.81



The best

Ron Rivera's aggressiveness has paid off for the unbeaten Panthers. AP Photo/Michael Ainsworth

Ron Rivera, Panthers: The undefeated Panthers have the league's best coach according to Strategy Score. No coach has been more aggressive this season. Riverboat Ron has gone for it all six times he has faced fourth-and-1 inside opposing territory in the first half. The rest of the league has played it safe and kicked 28 percent of the time in that situation. Cam Newton deserves some credit, enabling fourth-down aggressiveness with his rushing ability. On four of the plays, Newton kept the ball. He converted all four times.

Rivera shows that coaches can get much better at strategy. Not that long ago -- when the Panthers lost the occasional game -- Rivera was one of the least aggressive coaches in the league.

The rest of the best

Mike McCarthy, Packers: McCarthy ranks second in aggressiveness. In the first half this year, he has gone for it five of seven times in opposing territory when facing fourth-and-1 or fourth-and-2. Only two of the five attempts succeeded, but the wrong result doesn't change that going for it was the right decision.

Bill Belichick, Patriots: Week 13 wasn't the best for the Patriots or their usually strategically sound coach. We're not calling the end-of-half clock management against the Eagles a clear-cut mistake as some have, but we do give Belichick his first demerits of the season for failing to challenge an important fourth-quarter third-down play that was ruled pass interference on Malcolm Butler but appeared to be tipped by Jamie Collins before the contact. Belichick's mistake means every coach has at least one on their 2015 resume.

Jay Gruden, Redskins: After facing clock management questions in his first year, Gruden has made only one clear mistake in 2015. Even that mistake -- failing to start calling timeouts before the two-minute warning at the end of the Week 1 game against Miami -- hurt his team less than most clock management errors made by other coaches. My analysis also shows Gruden not making any important mistakes with the challenge flag.

Dan Quinn, Falcons: The rookie coach ranks fifth overall, but probably should get an extra penalty for making one of the most impactful mistakes of the season in Week 9 against the 49ers.

The worst

Mike Pettine, Browns: The coaches who fail the fourth-down test the most also often make the biggest mistakes on challenges and clock management. No coach shows this better than the Browns' Pettine. This year, Pettine ranks 30th on fourth down -- a big drop from last year when he was middle of the pack -- and has the most total mistakes with seven.

In Week 1, Pettine failed to challenge a third-down pass to Brandon Marshall that would likely have been overturned on review. That mistake cost the Browns at least four points in a game that was 14-10 in the third quarter. The ineptitude has continued through Week 13 against the Bengals, when the Browns made a mash of the clock for the second week in a row.

The rest of the worst

Rex Ryan, Bills: Ryan ranks 22nd in aggressiveness and first in bad challenge decisions. He set the standard two weeks ago against the Chiefs with three poor decisions in one game (explored here). No other coach has had more than two important mistakes in a single game, and that count of three doesn't include another lost, but justifiable, challenge late in the fourth quarter. More importantly, Ryan lost a no-hope third-quarter challenge and failed to challenge two crucial plays that would likely have been overturned.

Jim Tomsula, 49ers: It has been an inauspicious beginning for the rookie coach by every measure, including Strategy Score. He is tied for second with five mistakes on challenges after failing again in Week 13 with a no-chance challenge of a recovery on a second-quarter punt. Tomsula would rank even worse if we penalized him for some curious fourth-quarter punts.

Tom Coughlin, Giants: Coughlin's successful career shows that game strategy is just one element of being an NFL head coach. We don't have a scoring system for game preparation, motivation or locker-room management. Nevertheless, game strategy has always been a problem for the Giants' coach. In 2015, he's trails only Pettine in the number of games where he has bungled the clock. Not even Pettine can match Coughlin for game-changing clock-management mistakes this year.

Chuck Pagano, Colts: If these rankings included a penalty for strange fake punts, Pagano would rank lower than No. 28. Against Tampa Bay in Week 12, both his challenge of a Mike Evans catch and a T.Y. Hilton non-catch had little chance of succeeding. Referee Walt Coleman declared each call "confirmed" on review.
Post #: 1251
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/10/2015 10:08:11 AM   
Trekgeekscott


Posts: 38431
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Ranking Head Coaches by Strategic Decision-Making
ESPN INSIDER


Andrew Healy

On a week-to-week basis, almost no decision-makers receive as much scrutiny and second-guessing as the 32 men patrolling NFL sidelines. Go for it or kick? Pull out that red challenge flag or keep it in its hiding place? Call that timeout or let the clock continue to tick away? An NFL head coach confronts these strategic dilemmas knowing his calls can make the difference between winning and losing and whether he keeps his job or loses it.

Today we've got a metric -- call it Strategy Score -- to rank all 32 head coaches according to how well they handle these decisions. The coaches at the top make the calls that consistently put their teams in the best position to win. They stay aggressive when other coaches chicken out and avoid the head-scratching mistakes that bedevil others in the heat of the moment.

Strategy Score consists of three components:

Fourth-down aggressiveness: The numbers make it clear that coaches don't go for it on fourth down nearly enough. I look at all fourth-down decisions in the first three quarters -- since in the fourth quarter the game situation often dictates the decision -- and control for the score, distance to go, and the location on the field. A coach gets assigned a number that represents the extra number of times he would have gone for it on fourth down, facing the same game situation, compared to the league's most conservative coach (Mike McCoy of the San Diego Chargers).

Challenge mistakes: I went through all challenges made -- and not made -- to identify the cases where coaches made clear mistakes. Upon review, many challenges that failed were not clear mistakes since they were worth a try, either because of the game situation or because the tape showed the call was extremely close. There were even a couple cases where a successful challenge was a mistake because it gained little and left a team without further challenges.

Clock management mistakes: I reviewed end-of-half and end-of-game clock management decisions to find games where coaches made mistakes that had a substantial impact on a team's chances of winning. These mistakes are mostly about timeouts, but I squeezed in a couple egregious late-game field goal attempts. Pass vs. run decisions need to be indefensible to make the cut, since there is often a reasonable argument to go either way.

A coach's Strategy Score is just his aggressiveness number minus the total number of mistakes. For the interim coaches, the mistakes are prorated to the full slate of 11 games.

Ranking NFL Coaches by Strategy Score

Rank

Coach

Team

4th Down

Chall Mistakes

Clock Mistakes

Strategy Score


1 Ron Rivera CAR 7.00 1 0 6.00
2 Mike McCarthy GB 5.71 1 1 3.71
3 Bill Belichick NE 4.47 1 0 3.47
4 Jay Gruden WAS 4.22 0 1 3.22
5 Dan Quinn ATL 5.10 1 1 3.10
6 Mike Zimmer MIN 3.92 1 0 2.92
7 Chip Kelly PHI 4.24 1 1 2.24
8 Lovie Smith TB 4.86 3 0 1.86
9 Pete Carroll SEA 3.76 1 1 1.76
10 Jack Del Rio OAK 3.75 2 0 1.75
11 Jim Caldwell DET 3.23 1 1 1.23
12 Todd Bowles NYJ 4.05 2 1 1.05
13 Gary Kubiak DEN 2.99 2 0 0.99
14 Bill O'Brien HOU 2.86 2 0 0.86
15 Jason Garrett DAL 3.38 2 1 0.38
16 Marvin Lewis CIN 4.32 2 2 0.32
17 Dan Campbell MIA 1.25 0 1 0.25
18 Gus Bradley JAC 2.02 2 0 0.02
19 Andy Reid KC 3.99 2 2 -0.01
20 Bruce Arians ARI 1.94 1 1 -0.06
21 Jeff Fisher STL 2.71 2 1 -0.29
22 Mike Mularkey TEN 0.63 1 0 -0.37
23 Mike Tomlin PIT 1.27 0 2 -0.73
24 Sean Payton NO 3.09 3 1 -0.91
25 Mike McCoy SD 0.00 0 1 -1.00
26 John Fox CHI 1.45 1 2 -1.55
27 John Harbaugh BAL 3.69 5 1 -2.31
28 Chuck Pagano IND 1.49 4 0 -2.51
29 Tom Coughlin NYG 2.00 2 3 -3.00
30 Jim Tomsula SF 2.44 5 1 -3.56
31 Rex Ryan BUF 2.21 6 0 -3.79
32 Mike Pettine CLE 1.19 3 4 -5.81



The best

Ron Rivera's aggressiveness has paid off for the unbeaten Panthers. AP Photo/Michael Ainsworth

Ron Rivera, Panthers: The undefeated Panthers have the league's best coach according to Strategy Score. No coach has been more aggressive this season. Riverboat Ron has gone for it all six times he has faced fourth-and-1 inside opposing territory in the first half. The rest of the league has played it safe and kicked 28 percent of the time in that situation. Cam Newton deserves some credit, enabling fourth-down aggressiveness with his rushing ability. On four of the plays, Newton kept the ball. He converted all four times.

Rivera shows that coaches can get much better at strategy. Not that long ago -- when the Panthers lost the occasional game -- Rivera was one of the least aggressive coaches in the league.

The rest of the best

Mike McCarthy, Packers: McCarthy ranks second in aggressiveness. In the first half this year, he has gone for it five of seven times in opposing territory when facing fourth-and-1 or fourth-and-2. Only two of the five attempts succeeded, but the wrong result doesn't change that going for it was the right decision.

Bill Belichick, Patriots: Week 13 wasn't the best for the Patriots or their usually strategically sound coach. We're not calling the end-of-half clock management against the Eagles a clear-cut mistake as some have, but we do give Belichick his first demerits of the season for failing to challenge an important fourth-quarter third-down play that was ruled pass interference on Malcolm Butler but appeared to be tipped by Jamie Collins before the contact. Belichick's mistake means every coach has at least one on their 2015 resume.

Jay Gruden, Redskins: After facing clock management questions in his first year, Gruden has made only one clear mistake in 2015. Even that mistake -- failing to start calling timeouts before the two-minute warning at the end of the Week 1 game against Miami -- hurt his team less than most clock management errors made by other coaches. My analysis also shows Gruden not making any important mistakes with the challenge flag.

Dan Quinn, Falcons: The rookie coach ranks fifth overall, but probably should get an extra penalty for making one of the most impactful mistakes of the season in Week 9 against the 49ers.

The worst

Mike Pettine, Browns: The coaches who fail the fourth-down test the most also often make the biggest mistakes on challenges and clock management. No coach shows this better than the Browns' Pettine. This year, Pettine ranks 30th on fourth down -- a big drop from last year when he was middle of the pack -- and has the most total mistakes with seven.

In Week 1, Pettine failed to challenge a third-down pass to Brandon Marshall that would likely have been overturned on review. That mistake cost the Browns at least four points in a game that was 14-10 in the third quarter. The ineptitude has continued through Week 13 against the Bengals, when the Browns made a mash of the clock for the second week in a row.

The rest of the worst

Rex Ryan, Bills: Ryan ranks 22nd in aggressiveness and first in bad challenge decisions. He set the standard two weeks ago against the Chiefs with three poor decisions in one game (explored here). No other coach has had more than two important mistakes in a single game, and that count of three doesn't include another lost, but justifiable, challenge late in the fourth quarter. More importantly, Ryan lost a no-hope third-quarter challenge and failed to challenge two crucial plays that would likely have been overturned.

Jim Tomsula, 49ers: It has been an inauspicious beginning for the rookie coach by every measure, including Strategy Score. He is tied for second with five mistakes on challenges after failing again in Week 13 with a no-chance challenge of a recovery on a second-quarter punt. Tomsula would rank even worse if we penalized him for some curious fourth-quarter punts.

Tom Coughlin, Giants: Coughlin's successful career shows that game strategy is just one element of being an NFL head coach. We don't have a scoring system for game preparation, motivation or locker-room management. Nevertheless, game strategy has always been a problem for the Giants' coach. In 2015, he's trails only Pettine in the number of games where he has bungled the clock. Not even Pettine can match Coughlin for game-changing clock-management mistakes this year.

Chuck Pagano, Colts: If these rankings included a penalty for strange fake punts, Pagano would rank lower than No. 28. Against Tampa Bay in Week 12, both his challenge of a Mike Evans catch and a T.Y. Hilton non-catch had little chance of succeeding. Referee Walt Coleman declared each call "confirmed" on review.




And from where did they derive this fancy new metric?
I believe it came right out of that orifice about three feet below their heads.

_____________________________

I don't want to go through things that don't kill me and make me stronger anymore.
Post #: 1252
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/17/2015 3:15:26 PM   
JC2015

 

Posts: 4922
Joined: 4/27/2015
Status: offline
Is Cam Newton the New Worst Draft Pick Ever?

quote:

Cam Newton is a sure-fire bust. I am so certain of this that if he is the Panthers ' starting quarterback in 2016, I will buy a Cam Newton Jersey and stand in…

BLEACHERREPORT.COM|BY JIM FOLSOM

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/694994-carolina-panther-cam-newton-is-the-worst-nfl-draft-pick-ever?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=share&utm_campaign=web-des-art-top-171
Post #: 1253
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/17/2015 3:18:21 PM   
JC2015

 

Posts: 4922
Joined: 4/27/2015
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Early Lead
Russell Wilson had the best four-game stretch in NFL history
Resize Text Print Article Comments 2

By Matt Bonesteel December 14

(Patrick Semansky/Associated Press)
In case you hadn’t noticed, the Seattle Seahawks are pretty much mauling people right now, with six wins in their last seven games. It’s almost entirely because of quarterback Russell Wilson.

To wit:

— As noted by ESPN’s Bill Barnwell, Wilson has completed 89 of 118 passes for 1,171 yards and 16 touchdowns — with zero interceptions — over the past four games, contests Seattle has won by an average score of 35-14. His passer rating over that stretch is 145.9, the best four-game run for a quarterback with at least 100 pass attempts since at least 1960, and probably ever.

— Wilson has had a passer rating of at least 138.5 in each of his past four games, the first time that’s happened since 1960.

— Wilson has produced at least four touchdowns in each of the past three games. The only other quarterbacks to ever do that: Dan Marino, Peyton Manning and Drew Brees.

— Wilson has at least three passing touchdowns and zero interceptions in four consecutive games. The only other quarterbacks to ever do that: Manning, Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers.

— Wilson has at least three passing touchdowns, a 70 percent completion rate and no interceptions in four straight games. The only quarterback to ever do that: Russell Wilson, right now.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/12/14/russell-wilson-had-the-best-four-game-stretch-in-nfl-history/
Post #: 1254
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/17/2015 3:20:08 PM   
Trekgeekscott


Posts: 38431
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: JC2015

Is Cam Newton the New Worst Draft Pick Ever?

quote:

Cam Newton is a sure-fire bust. I am so certain of this that if he is the Panthers ' starting quarterback in 2016, I will buy a Cam Newton Jersey and stand in…

BLEACHERREPORT.COM|BY JIM FOLSOM

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/694994-carolina-panther-cam-newton-is-the-worst-nfl-draft-pick-ever?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=share&utm_campaign=web-des-art-top-171



Um...WHAT?

Steve Entmann? Tony Mandarich? Hell Demitrius Underwood? Ryan Leaf? Are you freaking kidding me?

And Cam is an honest to God MVP candidate this year. Without him the Panthers are average at best. There is no other offense there.

Folsom should retire for that dredge.

_____________________________

I don't want to go through things that don't kill me and make me stronger anymore.
Post #: 1255
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/17/2015 3:23:00 PM   
JC2015

 

Posts: 4922
Joined: 4/27/2015
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Painful how bad it was

painful
Post #: 1256
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/17/2015 6:59:09 PM   
Jeff Jesser


Posts: 19069
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: online
Just a guess but I'm thinking he only made that prediction because of past troubles and possible attitude perceptions coming out of Auburn? If not, I have no f'n idea what would make a person write that.

Dude was a stud in college with prototypical size/strength/athletic ability....ect....


I've said the same about Winston. Kids got all the natural ability, he just needs to keep his head on straight. He's been a model pro and is really starting to get it on the field. I do believe Mariotta will be good too (although, I'm on record as saying the complete opposite coming out of CFB). I've seen him play a few times in the pro's and will be fine. He's no Winston though.

Contrast that with guys like Tannehill/Johnny Bench and maybe even TB. All of them show flashes at times but all (especially in JM and TB's case) have some physical flaws they are going to have a hard time getting over.

As much as I love TB, he's never going to be a top tier guy like Cam (and what Winston in the cusp of getting to).
Post #: 1257
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/17/2015 7:21:52 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 76802
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online
I admit I didn't think Newton was going to pan out. He ran the most basic 1-read and take off offense possible in college. And then I saw him on that predraft thing with Gruden and he couldn't draw up a play or diagnose anything to save his life.

Sure fooled me.

Winston on the other hand was a pure QB that played the position as well as I've ever seen. He was better as a freshman than Luck was as a senior. If he kept his head on straight, he was going to be an All Pro.
Post #: 1258
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/17/2015 7:26:20 PM   
JC2015

 

Posts: 4922
Joined: 4/27/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Just a guess but I'm thinking he only made that prediction because of past troubles and possible attitude perceptions coming out of Auburn? If not, I have no f'n idea what would make a person write that.

Dude was a stud in college with prototypical size/strength/athletic ability....ect....


I've said the same about Winston. Kids got all the natural ability, he just needs to keep his head on straight. He's been a model pro and is really starting to get it on the field. I do believe Mariotta will be good too (although, I'm on record as saying the complete opposite coming out of CFB). I've seen him play a few times in the pro's and will be fine. He's no Winston though.

Contrast that with guys like Tannehill/Johnny Bench and maybe even TB. All of them show flashes at times but all (especially in JM and TB's case) have some physical flaws they are going to have a hard time getting over.

As much as I love TB, he's never going to be a top tier guy like Cam (and what Winston in the cusp of getting to).

No, he said Newton couldn't throw the football

I agree about Winston - I had a LOT more concern about his attitude but he has been cool

I love Bridge's attitude. I think his upside, if he works on his game like his life depended on it, is somewhere between Pennington and Brees. BUt I think closer to Pennington.

IMO, Bridgewater is good enough to win a SB but only with a really top team around him.

I have been saying for 2 years that Cam has Top 5 talent but he has to mature and also work on his touch passes. Seems to be putting it together now but needs to win a SB soon
Post #: 1259
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/17/2015 7:28:05 PM   
JC2015

 

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Joined: 4/27/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

I admit I didn't think Newton was going to pan out. He ran the most basic 1-read and take off offense possible in college. And then I saw him on that predraft thing with Gruden and he couldn't draw up a play or diagnose anything to save his life.

Sure fooled me.

Winston on the other hand was a pure QB that played the position as well as I've ever seen. He was better as a freshman than Luck was as a senior. If he kept his head on straight, he was going to be an All Pro.

Funny thing is Newton handles so much more as a pro!

You just never know how guys are going to develop

I remember early on Rick Mirer outperforming Bledsoe

As for Newton, I hope he runs a lot less in future years. No matter how big you are, sooner or later you are going to take a major injury running that much - see Culpepper
Post #: 1260
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/17/2015 7:28:36 PM   
JC2015

 

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I hope Dalton gets healthy for the playoffs

Seemed like he finally turned the corner this year

Shame about the thumb
Post #: 1261
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/17/2015 8:09:29 PM   
Todd M

 

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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Just a guess but I'm thinking he only made that prediction because of past troubles and possible attitude perceptions coming out of Auburn? If not, I have no f'n idea what would make a person write that.

Dude was a stud in college with prototypical size/strength/athletic ability....ect....


I've said the same about Winston. Kids got all the natural ability, he just needs to keep his head on straight. He's been a model pro and is really starting to get it on the field. I do believe Mariotta will be good too (although, I'm on record as saying the complete opposite coming out of CFB). I've seen him play a few times in the pro's and will be fine. He's no Winston though.

Contrast that with guys like Tannehill/Johnny Bench and maybe even TB. All of them show flashes at times but all (especially in JM and TB's case) have some physical flaws they are going to have a hard time getting over.

As much as I love TB, he's never going to be a top tier guy like Cam (and what Winston in the cusp of getting to).


I'm not ready to conclude Winston is on a trajectory that Teddy will never match.
Post #: 1262
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/17/2015 9:01:56 PM   
thebigo


Posts: 28246
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Just a guess but I'm thinking he only made that prediction because of past troubles and possible attitude perceptions coming out of Auburn? If not, I have no f'n idea what would make a person write that.

Dude was a stud in college with prototypical size/strength/athletic ability....ect....


I've said the same about Winston. Kids got all the natural ability, he just needs to keep his head on straight. He's been a model pro and is really starting to get it on the field. I do believe Mariotta will be good too (although, I'm on record as saying the complete opposite coming out of CFB). I've seen him play a few times in the pro's and will be fine. He's no Winston though.

Contrast that with guys like Tannehill/Johnny Bench and maybe even TB. All of them show flashes at times but all (especially in JM and TB's case) have some physical flaws they are going to have a hard time getting over.

As much as I love TB, he's never going to be a top tier guy like Cam (and what Winston in the cusp of getting to).


And last year you would have said that Cam will never be a top tier guy like Cam.
Post #: 1263
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/17/2015 9:10:41 PM   
Jeff Jesser


Posts: 19069
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Just a guess but I'm thinking he only made that prediction because of past troubles and possible attitude perceptions coming out of Auburn? If not, I have no f'n idea what would make a person write that.

Dude was a stud in college with prototypical size/strength/athletic ability....ect....


I've said the same about Winston. Kids got all the natural ability, he just needs to keep his head on straight. He's been a model pro and is really starting to get it on the field. I do believe Mariotta will be good too (although, I'm on record as saying the complete opposite coming out of CFB). I've seen him play a few times in the pro's and will be fine. He's no Winston though.

Contrast that with guys like Tannehill/Johnny Bench and maybe even TB. All of them show flashes at times but all (especially in JM and TB's case) have some physical flaws they are going to have a hard time getting over.

As much as I love TB, he's never going to be a top tier guy like Cam (and what Winston in the cusp of getting to).


I'm not ready to conclude Winston is on a trajectory that Teddy will never match.


Nope sorry. I hate to be negative because I love TB's attitude and leadership skills but lets be honest, he's not on the same planet, talent wise, as Cam.
Post #: 1264
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/17/2015 9:11:40 PM   
Jeff Jesser


Posts: 19069
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Just a guess but I'm thinking he only made that prediction because of past troubles and possible attitude perceptions coming out of Auburn? If not, I have no f'n idea what would make a person write that.

Dude was a stud in college with prototypical size/strength/athletic ability....ect....


I've said the same about Winston. Kids got all the natural ability, he just needs to keep his head on straight. He's been a model pro and is really starting to get it on the field. I do believe Mariotta will be good too (although, I'm on record as saying the complete opposite coming out of CFB). I've seen him play a few times in the pro's and will be fine. He's no Winston though.

Contrast that with guys like Tannehill/Johnny Bench and maybe even TB. All of them show flashes at times but all (especially in JM and TB's case) have some physical flaws they are going to have a hard time getting over.

As much as I love TB, he's never going to be a top tier guy like Cam (and what Winston in the cusp of getting to).


And last year you would have said that Cam will never be a top tier guy like Cam.


Actually (and you are a bit right) I thought he had a chance. I just didn't think he would ever be a leader. So, essentially, you are right. I knew he had the talent.
Post #: 1265
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/17/2015 9:18:19 PM   
Todd M

 

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Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Just a guess but I'm thinking he only made that prediction because of past troubles and possible attitude perceptions coming out of Auburn? If not, I have no f'n idea what would make a person write that.

Dude was a stud in college with prototypical size/strength/athletic ability....ect....


I've said the same about Winston. Kids got all the natural ability, he just needs to keep his head on straight. He's been a model pro and is really starting to get it on the field. I do believe Mariotta will be good too (although, I'm on record as saying the complete opposite coming out of CFB). I've seen him play a few times in the pro's and will be fine. He's no Winston though.

Contrast that with guys like Tannehill/Johnny Bench and maybe even TB. All of them show flashes at times but all (especially in JM and TB's case) have some physical flaws they are going to have a hard time getting over.

As much as I love TB, he's never going to be a top tier guy like Cam (and what Winston in the cusp of getting to).


I'm not ready to conclude Winston is on a trajectory that Teddy will never match.


Nope sorry. I hate to be negative because I love TB's attitude and leadership skills but lets be honest, he's not on the same planet, talent wise, as Cam.


Cam Winston?

Cam can run as this generations elite and I couldn't be happier for him...yeah, Teddy isn't in that mold.

I'm not ready to anoint Jameis Winston to a level Teddy can't achieve.
Post #: 1266
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/17/2015 9:21:58 PM   
Jeff Jesser


Posts: 19069
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From: Southern Cal
Status: online
Whoops


Although, my point (even though I got crossed) stands. TB doesn't have, nearly, the upside of Winston either.
Post #: 1267
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/17/2015 9:28:55 PM   
Todd M

 

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We'll have to keep an eye on that...


Site: Remind me 01/01/2018
Post #: 1268
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/17/2015 10:32:21 PM   
thebigo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Whoops


Although, my point (even though I got crossed) stands. TB doesn't have, nearly, the upside of Winston either.


You could make the same argument about Joe Montana.
Post #: 1269
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/18/2015 8:06:14 AM   
JC2015

 

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Cam has been a stud for years. 3 straight division titles. Let's not even pretend for one second Cam has not been a stud QB his whole NFL career

If he had any WRs at all he would be right there with Brady and Rodgers
Post #: 1270
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/18/2015 8:12:55 AM   
Trekgeekscott


Posts: 38431
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Whoops


Although, my point (even though I got crossed) stands. TB doesn't have, nearly, the upside of Winston either.


You could make the same argument about Joe Montana.


Or Tom Brady

_____________________________

I don't want to go through things that don't kill me and make me stronger anymore.
Post #: 1271
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/21/2015 9:31:29 PM   
Justin Sampson


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Joined: 7/24/2007
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Great long read about Joey Harrington and his stunt being an NFL QB...

Despite What You May Think, My NFL Career Was A Success

This stuck out to me, and he said it perfectly. Think AP...

quote:

The expectations that your favorite player will be a monster on Sundays and a saint the rest of the week — well, that’s not how human nature really works. You’re going to be what you’ve trained to become. So it’s outright hypocritical for people to applaud and glorify the violent things someone does on the football field, only to be surprised and appalled at the reprehensible things they do off of it.
Post #: 1272
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/22/2015 3:14:45 PM   
Bill Jandro

 

Posts: 17838
Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JC2015

Cam has been a stud for years. 3 straight division titles. Let's not even pretend for one second Cam has not been a stud QB his whole NFL career

If he had any WRs at all he would be right there with Brady and Rodgers


Cam has made me a believer at about mid-season this year.

He has always had great intangibles and a simply freak body. But I did not know if he would take it up a level and hit the film room or just rely on his freakish ability.

It wasn't until about mid-season he really bumped up his comp%. Early in the year he would miss guys badly on slant and crossing routes. He has finally improved on these. Along with his incredible deep ball and running ability.

This improved accuracy has elevated him into elite status.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft
Post #: 1273
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/22/2015 3:42:51 PM   
Bill Jandro

 

Posts: 17838
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Justin Sampson

Great long read about Joey Harrington and his stunt being an NFL QB...

Despite What You May Think, My NFL Career Was A Success

This stuck out to me, and he said it perfectly. Think AP...

quote:

The expectations that your favorite player will be a monster on Sundays and a saint the rest of the week — well, that’s not how human nature really works. You’re going to be what you’ve trained to become. So it’s outright hypocritical for people to applaud and glorify the violent things someone does on the football field, only to be surprised and appalled at the reprehensible things they do off of it.



Very intelligent quote. Just making it to the NFL is an incredible feat

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft
Post #: 1274
RE: Around the NFL (News) - 2013 Season - 12/22/2015 5:55:14 PM   
Jeff Jesser


Posts: 19069
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: online
It's BS to me. He's essentially saying "it's a brutal game and we are taught to be tough. It's understandable guys rape, murder, rob and do drugs. They've been trained to".
Post #: 1275
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