RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond)

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John Childress -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 2:11:00 PM)
Stats are one PART of the puzzle There is also leadership Wins elevating people Tons of factors Peyton Manning - his big game performances are too bad to be considered the best Steve Young - perhaps the most talented but, again, too many bad playoff performances Tom Brady - real close, would like to see him win one SB without cheating Warren Moon - yeah, he doesn't belong in this group but I put him here anyway because I think if he had of been allowed to go to the NFL out of college and got in the right situation he would be with these guys John Elway - he was so up and down in his prime and didn't really take off as a passer until Terrell Davis Brett Favre - maybe if he had Holmgren to reign him in his whole career he would be there

John Childress -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 2:12:47 PM)
Also, I think you have to have two classes for the NFL Pre 1978 (?) when they made the rule changes to benefit offense and especially passing Post 1978 Pre 1978 Unitas Tarkenton Stabler Bradshaw Van Brocklin etc.

kgdabom -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 2:22:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: John Childress Also, I think you have to have two classes for the NFL Pre 1978 (?) when they made the rule changes to benefit offense and especially passing Post 1978 Pre 1978 Unitas Tarkenton Stabler Bradshaw Van Brocklin etc. Those were good ones. What about Slingin' Sammy Baugh?

John Childress -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 2:36:21 PM)
Very good I didn't see enough film on him I know before Montana most folks put Unitas at the top

John Childress -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 2:39:49 PM)
Steve Young is not even close to Montana http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Y/YounSt00/gamelog/post/ Almost every year - save 94 - he had really bad playoff losses where he tossed multiple picks His QB rating dropped over 10 points in the post season

Rob Viking -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 2:58:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: John Childress Steve Young is not even close to Montana http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Y/YounSt00/gamelog/post/ Almost every year - save 94 - he had really bad playoff losses where he tossed multiple picks His QB rating dropped over 10 points in the post season He also had to face the Cowboys or Packers every season when both teams were at their best.

John Childress -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 3:01:32 PM)
True Joe went against the Bears and Giants in their prime Also good in the NFC were the Vikings and Wash I think Joe had better competition

djskillz -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 3:14:13 PM)
Good stuff, JC. Joe is the best by far IMO. In the conversation for #2 are Brady, Elway, Unitas, Marino, Peyton, and Young to me. Could make arguments for any of them, but I'd probably take Brady or Elway 2nd. When you're talking about the all-time best you're splitting hairs so it's not like you're saying "Manning sucks"; it's just that when you're talking about THIS conversation wins have to matter at some point.

Guest -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 3:27:08 PM)
Yep guys, Joe Montana was impervious to high pressure moments. The best I ever saw....his skill sets remind me of Teddy...[;)]

John Childress -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 3:52:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz Good stuff, JC. Joe is the best by far IMO. In the conversation for #2 are Brady, Elway, Unitas, Marino, Peyton, and Young to me. Could make arguments for any of them, but I'd probably take Brady or Elway 2nd. When you're talking about the all-time best you're splitting hairs so it's not like you're saying "Manning sucks"; it's just that when you're talking about THIS conversation wins have to matter at some point. Agreed! Manning is in the top 5 for sure But Joe was on another level versus all these other guys and it was because his performance increased the bigger the game was He really only had 2 bad playoff losses 86 Giants 87 Vikings Then he came back and won 2 more Super Bowls

John Childress -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 3:54:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kurt bilben Yep guys, Joe Montana was impervious to high pressure moments. The best I ever saw....his skill sets remind me of Teddy...[;)] You know, I agree! Just like Joe, Teddy is a little undersized, doesn't have a cannon arm, but is extremely cool under pressure and accurate on short and medium passes Obviously you don't compare a rookie to Joe, but I just did!

thebigo -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 5:44:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RBIrving Please notice I did not say Peyton was the best ever, I simply said he belongs in the conversation. Montana is hard to overlook as the best, even more so because he played on arguably the best offense in the history of the NFL. I have 7 reasons to discount the value of the Super Bowl in the discussion as to who is the best. Trent Dilfer Jim Plunkett Doug Williams Jeff Hostetler Mark Rypien Brad Johnson Joe Namath All these guys have Super Bowl rings and not a single one of them deserves to be in the conversation as to who is the best. Never forget that football is a team sport and no game is won or lost based on the play of a single player. Peyton Manning is a throwback as he is truly a general on the field, he directs the offense from the field of play. If the choice is this season is between Eli and Peyton there's simply no doubt that Eli is clearly done and that remains to be seen with Peyton. Since Peyton threw for 55 TDs last year, then if it "remains to be seen with Peyton whether he is done or not", you would pretty much have to say that about every player in the league.

thebigo -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 5:52:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: John Childress These are facts PM career 491 TDs 219 INTs 97.2 QB rating (110 with Denver) 7.7 Yards per attempt (8.2 with Denver) PM SB I 25 or 38, 247 yards, 6.5 yards per attempt, 1 TD, 1 INT, 81.8 passer rating PM SB II 31 or 45, 333 yards, 7.4 yards per attempt, 1 TD, 1 INT, 88.5 passer rating PM SB III 34 or 49, 280 yards, 5.71 yards per attempt, 1 TD, 2 INT, 73.5 passer rating It is a fact that Manning significantly underperforms in the Super Bowl If you can't deal with facts then don't debate I don't argue that Mannings SuperBowl performances have not been as good as his average performances. Once again Good or Great ds and small sample size. I don't expect Manning to play any different in SuperBowls than any other game. Now I know there is this thing about raising your level for the big games but every player on the field should be raising their level for the big game. It should be a wash. Generally speaking teams that make it to the SB have damn good defenses, so the opposing QB in general will not play as well as if they were playing an average defense. The point seems obvious, but seems to be missed in this discussion.

kgdabom -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 6:25:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thebigo quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: John Childress These are facts PM career 491 TDs 219 INTs 97.2 QB rating (110 with Denver) 7.7 Yards per attempt (8.2 with Denver) PM SB I 25 or 38, 247 yards, 6.5 yards per attempt, 1 TD, 1 INT, 81.8 passer rating PM SB II 31 or 45, 333 yards, 7.4 yards per attempt, 1 TD, 1 INT, 88.5 passer rating PM SB III 34 or 49, 280 yards, 5.71 yards per attempt, 1 TD, 2 INT, 73.5 passer rating It is a fact that Manning significantly underperforms in the Super Bowl If you can't deal with facts then don't debate I don't argue that Mannings SuperBowl performances have not been as good as his average performances. Once again Good or Great ds and small sample size. I don't expect Manning to play any different in SuperBowls than any other game. Now I know there is this thing about raising your level for the big games but every player on the field should be raising their level for the big game. It should be a wash. Generally speaking teams that make it to the SB have damn good defenses, so the opposing QB in general will not play as well as if they were playing an average defense. The point seems obvious, but seems to be missed in this discussion. hey BigO. Thanks for the support. You did notice that I had mentioned it when I said Good or Great Ds affect his SuperBowl performance.

DavidAOlson -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 7:12:27 PM)
FiveThirtyEight just put up their review of the Broncos division. Short answer: after you account for the strength of the opponents in the playoffs, Manning personally outperforms expectations. Part of his "problem" is that he is good enough to carry a weak team into the playoffs. The article rips Rodgers and Rivers for being too conservative when their team is losing big and the QB should be taking chances. (Aside, the article also has a comparison of AD and Jamaal Charles that might get some people going.) quote: Yet there are “whispers” that the Seattle Seahawks defense may have finally exposed Manning’s limitations. Doubting Manning is an ancient sport, and though it has changed somewhat over time, it’s not going anywhere anytime soon. The last time Manning failed to win at least 10 games was 2001 (when Russell Wilson was still in middle school) yet Manning is only 11-12 in the postseason. Critics often say Manning is a good “regular season quarterback,” but not a great “playoff quarterback.” The theory is that there’s something about Manning’s game that makes him great at beating up on weak opponents, but that can’t handle the tougher, more complex defenses found commonly in playoff opponents. I’ll confess, before looking into this myself, I thought it was a plausible-sounding theory.1 But for the most part, the reason Manning has had a harder time winning games in the playoffs is the same as it is for virtually everyone else: He has faced tougher opponents and tougher defenses. While it’s true that his teams haven’t won quite as many games as expected, and that he performs a little worse in the playoffs than in the regular season, he has actually performed better against playoff defenses that we would expect given the strength of those defenses. http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/2014-nfl-preview-the-broncos-versus-the-hopefuls/

JT2 -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 7:30:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thebigo quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: John Childress These are facts PM career 491 TDs 219 INTs 97.2 QB rating (110 with Denver) 7.7 Yards per attempt (8.2 with Denver) PM SB I 25 or 38, 247 yards, 6.5 yards per attempt, 1 TD, 1 INT, 81.8 passer rating PM SB II 31 or 45, 333 yards, 7.4 yards per attempt, 1 TD, 1 INT, 88.5 passer rating PM SB III 34 or 49, 280 yards, 5.71 yards per attempt, 1 TD, 2 INT, 73.5 passer rating It is a fact that Manning significantly underperforms in the Super Bowl If you can't deal with facts then don't debate I don't argue that Mannings SuperBowl performances have not been as good as his average performances. Once again Good or Great ds and small sample size. I don't expect Manning to play any different in SuperBowls than any other game. Now I know there is this thing about raising your level for the big games but every player on the field should be raising their level for the big game. It should be a wash. Generally speaking teams that make it to the SB have damn good defenses, so the opposing QB in general will not play as well as if they were playing an average defense. The point seems obvious, but seems to be missed in this discussion. All the more reason it is crystal clear that Montana is ahead of the rest.

djskillz -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 8:00:31 PM)
Agreed guys. Probably covered already but didn't he have ZERO int's in all of his Super Bowls? That's as impressive as anything against those defenses.

David Levine -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 8:05:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz Agreed guys. Probably covered already but didn't he have ZERO int's in all of his Super Bowls? That's as impressive as anything against those defenses. Yes. 11 TDs, 0 INTs.

djskillz -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 8:07:47 PM)
Thanks DL.

JT2 -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 8:08:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz Thanks DL. You really have to let that sink in. Pretty damn amazing.

David Levine -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 8:15:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JT2 quote: ORIGINAL: djskillz Thanks DL. You really have to let that sink in. Pretty damn amazing. 68%, 286 yards per game, 11 TDs, 0 INTs, 127.8 QBR. Plus 17 carries, 105 yards and 2 more TDs.

djskillz -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 8:23:30 PM)
Tough to ever top, really. When you think about that he did that FOUR times. It's almost like Michael Jordan in basketball. I've never though Michael was the best ever and have other preferences (Magic/Kareem/others) as I think that is a little more nuanced but it's always been a pretty fantastic argument that he's 6-0 and never lost a game 7.

thebigo -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 8:23:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JT2 quote: ORIGINAL: thebigo quote: ORIGINAL: kgdabom quote: ORIGINAL: John Childress These are facts PM career 491 TDs 219 INTs 97.2 QB rating (110 with Denver) 7.7 Yards per attempt (8.2 with Denver) PM SB I 25 or 38, 247 yards, 6.5 yards per attempt, 1 TD, 1 INT, 81.8 passer rating PM SB II 31 or 45, 333 yards, 7.4 yards per attempt, 1 TD, 1 INT, 88.5 passer rating PM SB III 34 or 49, 280 yards, 5.71 yards per attempt, 1 TD, 2 INT, 73.5 passer rating It is a fact that Manning significantly underperforms in the Super Bowl If you can't deal with facts then don't debate I don't argue that Mannings SuperBowl performances have not been as good as his average performances. Once again Good or Great ds and small sample size. I don't expect Manning to play any different in SuperBowls than any other game. Now I know there is this thing about raising your level for the big games but every player on the field should be raising their level for the big game. It should be a wash. Generally speaking teams that make it to the SB have damn good defenses, so the opposing QB in general will not play as well as if they were playing an average defense. The point seems obvious, but seems to be missed in this discussion. All the more reason it is crystal clear that Montana is ahead of the rest. Of course you have to look at the specifics, in Montana's 4 SBs the defenses he faced averaged an NFL ranking of #12.25, when the league only had 28 teams. Meanwhile Montana's SF defenses those years had an average ranking of #4.75

Guest -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 9:36:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: John Childress quote: ORIGINAL: kurt bilben Yep guys, Joe Montana was impervious to high pressure moments. The best I ever saw....his skill sets remind me of Teddy...[;)] You know, I agree! Just like Joe, Teddy is a little undersized, doesn't have a cannon arm, but is extremely cool under pressure and accurate on short and medium passes Obviously you don't compare a rookie to Joe, but I just did! I hate to agree with your agreement [;)], but the physical comparisons are spot on, however along with that I think his greatest similarity may be his ability to stand in, take the hit, and deliver accurately. Big balls I guess is what they have in common....Teddy is to be determined obviously...

hagar -> RE: Predictions for Next Week (and maybe beyond) (9/4/2014 11:12:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: John Childress You can't be the best ever when you consistently underperform in the clutch quote: Offense wins games, defense wins championships. How come Montana didn't choke in the Super Bowl? Denver had the #1 defense in the NFL in 1989 Joe put up 55 points Shockingly other QBs are able to maintain or ELEVATE their performance in the biggest game In 1988 he put 34 points on the #1 defense in the NFL - the Vikings. The excuses for Peytons subpar SB performances have run out I think Montana is the best QB in the biggest games that I've ever seen. I totally forgot about his SB win over the Vikings in 88 though.[;)]

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