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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 10:47:32 AM

David Levine

Posts: 76802
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Love the debate on CBs!! Too many posts and comments I agree with to rehash them all.

I also think Waynes is underrated. As we've seen from Cook, I don't think we can rely on Hughes recovering from injury at the beginning of the season(nor had he fully arrived). I am stoked about Hill but he hasn't arrived either. Rhodes, to me has been a major disappointment, not the same as last year. But when he was on last year, I'd call him a top 5 cover guy. Not great in run defense but doesn't avoid it (Peters/Ramsey).

If coach and FO is willing to trade Waynes or let him play out his contract (and get a comp pick in return). I'm ok with that. I trust this team completely on CB and DEs.

Can we afford to pay him 9M next year?

I assume his contract (option picked up) is already built into salary cap projections. It's like anything. If we are paying 4M for a back up RB, 5.5 for a oft injured Safety, or 11M for a declining DE, 8M for a TE, then no we probably can't afford 9M for our 2nd corner. I've seen projections with a few cuts and restructures we are at 30M in space. My number 1 resign priority is Richardson. Then I don't think we need to do anything else defensively (Barr and Sendejo can walk). Oline, TE, 3rd WR are my offensive goals. Some of this can be addressed in the draft.

Do I expect Rhodes to be closer to 2017 than 2018 in 2019. But imagine a perfect storm. Rhodes plays closer to 2018 than 2017. Hughes isn't healthy. Hill and Mac play inconsistent. Are we going to be ok without Waynes?

If we let Barr walk, LBer becomes a pretty big priority as well.

Post #: 1051

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 10:51:22 AM

SoMnFan

Posts: 94902
Status: offline

Who's lets a cinch Pro Bowl LBer walk?

Post #: 1052

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 11:01:01 AM

Guest

The Barr we saw Sunday was who we drafted.

The Barr we’ve seen for 83.87111% of the time is middling and quite maddening.

You can see how the good Barr can transform our Defense to elite, and beyond like he did Sunday.

He set the tone early, and others joined in. Contagious indeed.

If I’m Spiels I make my call on the two weeks, and hopefully into the playoffs if we bring Barr back or not.

2,3,4,5, 6 more efforts like last Sunday and I resign him.

Post #: 1053

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 11:02:28 AM

The Happy Norseman

Posts: 758
Joined: 12/2/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Love the debate on CBs!! Too many posts and comments I agree with to rehash them all.

I also think Waynes is underrated. As we've seen from Cook, I don't think we can rely on Hughes recovering from injury at the beginning of the season(nor had he fully arrived). I am stoked about Hill but he hasn't arrived either. Rhodes, to me has been a major disappointment, not the same as last year. But when he was on last year, I'd call him a top 5 cover guy. Not great in run defense but doesn't avoid it (Peters/Ramsey).

If coach and FO is willing to trade Waynes or let him play out his contract (and get a comp pick in return). I'm ok with that. I trust this team completely on CB and DEs.

Can we afford to pay him 9M next year?

I assume his contract (option picked up) is already built into salary cap projections. It's like anything. If we are paying 4M for a back up RB, 5.5 for a oft injured Safety, or 11M for a declining DE, 8M for a TE, then no we probably can't afford 9M for our 2nd corner. I've seen projections with a few cuts and restructures we are at 30M in space. My number 1 resign priority is Richardson. Then I don't think we need to do anything else defensively (Barr and Sendejo can walk). Oline, TE, 3rd WR are my offensive goals. Some of this can be addressed in the draft.

Do I expect Rhodes to be closer to 2017 than 2018 in 2019. But imagine a perfect storm. Rhodes plays closer to 2018 than 2017. Hughes isn't healthy. Hill and Mac play inconsistent. Are we going to be ok without Waynes?

That's the risk the team has to take. We can't have depth at every position. If we lose Waynes we know we still have a very talented starting secondary. Same with Richardson. We'll still have a very talented d line, just not as talented. Conversely, we know that we have a terrible offensive line with no depth that will remain terrible, and will prevent us from winning a Superbowl, if it isn't addressed. Dan is right, it's hard to balance a team. If I were Spielman, I would make it a priority to find two FA guards who can start. We simply have to secure known commodities for the o line. If that means losing Waynes, Barr and Richardson, so be it. He can use the draft to find their replacements. Because we're strong on defense, we can take more risk finding defensive replacements through the draft.

_____________________________

If the Cubs can win the World Series...

Post #: 1054

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 11:03:31 AM

The Happy Norseman

Posts: 758
Joined: 12/2/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Who's lets a cinch Pro Bowl LBer walk?

A team who is forced to start Tom Compton on their offensive line...

_____________________________

If the Cubs can win the World Series...

Post #: 1055

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 11:30:25 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 44310
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Who's lets a cinch Pro Bowl LBer walk?

A team who is forced to start Tom Compton on their offensive line...

Game, set and match.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1056

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 11:30:45 AM

Mark Anderson

Posts: 12058
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

The Barr we saw Sunday was who we drafted.

The Barr we’ve seen for 83.87111% of the time is middling and quite maddening.

You can see how the good Barr can transform our Defense to elite, and beyond like he did Sunday.

He set the tone early, and others joined in. Contagious indeed.

If I’m Spiels I make my call on the two weeks, and hopefully into the playoffs if we bring Barr back or not.

2,3,4,5, 6 more efforts like last Sunday and I resign him.

Tough calls to be made this off season.

Can we keep 2 out of 3 (Waynes, Barr, Richardson) and still improve the OLine?

Probably if we re-structure or cut Griffen? Rudy?

Definitely cut Remmers, Sendejo. Re-structure Reiff, Rhodes, HSmith, maybe Cousins(not sure how we could without extending him).

Draft 2 OLinemen out of first 3 picks

Post #: 1057

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 11:35:29 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 44310
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

The Barr we saw Sunday was who we drafted.

The Barr we’ve seen for 83.87111% of the time is middling and quite maddening.

You can see how the good Barr can transform our Defense to elite, and beyond like he did Sunday.

He set the tone early, and others joined in. Contagious indeed.

If I’m Spiels I make my call on the two weeks, and hopefully into the playoffs if we bring Barr back or not.

2,3,4,5, 6 more efforts like last Sunday and I resign him.

Tough calls to be made this off season.

Can we keep 2 out of 3 (Waynes, Barr, Richardson) and still improve the OLine?

Probably if we re-structure or cut Griffen? Rudy?

Definitely cut Remmers, Sendejo. Re-structure Reiff, Rhodes, HSmith, maybe Cousins(not sure how we could without extending him).

Draft 2 OLinemen out of first 3 picks

Rudy can walk. That's basically what he does on his passing routes anyway. Conklin with one catch, did 2 things Rudy can't do. 1. Get open down field. 2. Run for good yards after catch.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1058

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 11:40:07 AM

David Levine

Posts: 76802
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

The Barr we saw Sunday was who we drafted.

The Barr we’ve seen for 83.87111% of the time is middling and quite maddening.

You can see how the good Barr can transform our Defense to elite, and beyond like he did Sunday.

He set the tone early, and others joined in. Contagious indeed.

If I’m Spiels I make my call on the two weeks, and hopefully into the playoffs if we bring Barr back or not.

2,3,4,5, 6 more efforts like last Sunday and I resign him.

Tough calls to be made this off season.

Can we keep 2 out of 3 (Waynes, Barr, Richardson) and still improve the OLine?

Probably if we re-structure or cut Griffen? Rudy?

Definitely cut Remmers, Sendejo. Re-structure Reiff, Rhodes, HSmith, maybe Cousins(not sure how we could without extending him).

Draft 2 OLinemen out of first 3 picks

Rudy can walk. That's basically what he does on his passing routes anyway. Conklin with one catch, did 2 things Rudy can't do. 1. Get open down field. 2. Run for good yards after catch.

We desperately need a "modern" TE.

Want to give Cook more room to run? Get a TE that can actually take a LBer down the field with him...

Post #: 1059

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 11:47:21 AM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

There are starting caliber guards in every draft. Through Williams, mid second round, I believe, every guard drafted is starting - though I didn't see Williams starting last game I watched Dallas (idk if it's injury or performance). I don't know how well each is playing. I assume Nelson is doing well. Ragnow has been inconsistent. Price I think has done well. Wynn injured right? Idk now Corbett or Smith are doing. Daniels and Herndandez are doing very well.

A lot of plug and play options last year. Not sure about next draft. But draft 1 in the top two rounds and look at FA options. A lot of guard FA have been huge disappointments lately.

I still probably let Barr walk. I'm not paying more than we are this year. We might not have the high-end but less downside.

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.

Post #: 1060

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 11:50:13 AM

SoMnFan

Posts: 94902
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Who's lets a cinch Pro Bowl LBer walk?

A team who is forced to start Tom Compton on their offensive line...

Game, set and match.

Did I forget the magical sarcasm emoji, again?

Post #: 1061

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 11:54:40 AM

Mark Anderson

Posts: 12058
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

There are starting caliber guards in every draft. Through Williams, mid second round, I believe, every guard drafted is starting - though I didn't see Williams starting last game I watched Dallas (idk if it's injury or performance). I don't know how well each is playing. I assume Nelson is doing well. Ragnow has been inconsistent. Price I think has done well. Wynn injured right? Idk now Corbett or Smith are doing. Daniels and Herndandez are doing very well.

A lot of plug and play options last year. Not sure about next draft. But draft 1 in the top two rounds and look at FA options. A lot of guard FA have been huge disappointments lately.

I still probably let Barr walk. I'm not paying more than we are this year. We might not have the high-end but less downside.

Yep. Look at Indy.

Their OLine was getting Luck killed year after year and they went Nelson and Smith(both starting) early and have turned the team around.

Post #: 1062

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 11:57:12 AM

Pager

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Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

https://www.dailynorseman.com/2018/12/19/18148200/2019-nfl-salary-cap-minnesota-vikings

Apropos. Addressing 5 contract gets us to about 40M in cap space next year (pretty easily). I bet we could another 5-10 (don't know if Floyd is fully off the books) Again I assume Waynes, since his option was already picked up, his 9M is already factored in.

Carve out 3-4 for Harris. 3-4 for the draft. Let's call it 35M.

< Message edited by Pager -- 12/19/2018 11:58:43 AM >

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.

Post #: 1063

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 12:12:40 PM

Ricky J

Posts: 18189
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: online

fivethirtyeight

http://talkvikes.gorge.net/tm.aspx?m=1482605&mpage=43

We Still Don’t Know Which NFL Teams Are Any Good

You wonder if the Vikings have figured out a winning formula by turning their $84 million QB into a game manager.

sara.ziegler: “The Vikings have figured out a winning formula” is not a thing.

That will never be a thing.

gfoster: The Vikings are back.

sara.ziegler: Stop.

neil: It does seem like it’s going to come down to Minnesota and Philly — with maybe some of that changing based on what Carolina does tonight.

(I guess Washington also won with Josh Johnson on Sunday.)

Salfino: The Vikings passed 34 percent of the time Sunday, when they were 66 percent pass previously. And even in the first half, if you want to throw out the game total because of the blowout, the Vikings were only 42 percent pass. Mike Zimmer has put the team into the DeLorean. This is not 2018 football. But maybe it’s their best chance since Kirk Cousins seemed so mechanical and was playing so inefficiently.

sara.ziegler: You could see the effect of the new play-calling almost immediately for the Vikings. Through Week 14, they had rushed on first down only 41 percent of the time. On Sunday, that was up to 79 percent.

Salfino: Dalvin Cook is really good, but the strength of the team is the wide receivers. While running could work against the Dolphins, who are 26th in yards allowed per rush, can it work against better competition?

neil: The Vikings are fascinating to me. They had the single worst loss of the season and have generally underachieved relative to expectations. I want to write about this, but Cousins has basically matched most of Case Keenum’s output from last year — and Keenum’s Denver performance is making them look smart for moving on anyway — and the receivers (Adam Thielen and Stefon Diggs) are more productive than ever. But their offense is somehow down according to holistic metrics such as SRS. Yet they still probably will make the playoffs — and could be a tough out for somebody.

gfoster: Where is Thielen though? He was the best receiver in football for the first half of the season, and now he’s a glorified Quincy Enunwa out there.

sara.ziegler: Maybe whatever Bill Belichick yelled at Thielen in Foxboro has really stuck with him.

Salfino: I would not want to play the Vikings if Cousins is hot like in a few games this year — think of the game at Los Angeles. Their defense can be tough, too. They’re first in sack rate. But I feel better about playing them if they insist on playing small ball.

gfoster: Thielen only received two targets yesterday, but part of that was game flow.

Salfino: Thielen’s problem yesterday is that when your passing volume gets cut in half, you’re going to suffer. But only two targets (he caught both) is just terrible market share as well. He should be 25 to 30 percent of attempts, not 10 percent.

Minnesota basically has built a pass-oriented offense but now wants to run. It’s weird.

-- I just cut the Vikings stuff - there's more on other teams, as well (thought the stuff on LAR was good)

Post #: 1064

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 2:20:58 PM

CPAMAN

Posts: 36324
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

The Barr we saw Sunday was who we drafted.

The Barr we’ve seen for 83.87111% of the time is middling and quite maddening.

You can see how the good Barr can transform our Defense to elite, and beyond like he did Sunday.

He set the tone early, and others joined in. Contagious indeed.

If I’m Spiels I make my call on the two weeks, and hopefully into the playoffs if we bring Barr back or not.

2,3,4,5, 6 more efforts like last Sunday and I resign him.

Yeah, and then you pay him and he returns to middling and quite maddening.

_____________________________

Lots of Christopher Columbus statues available on ebay.

Post #: 1065

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 2:28:22 PM

bstinger

Posts: 16420
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

https://www.dailynorseman.com/2018/12/19/18148200/2019-nfl-salary-cap-minnesota-vikings

Apropos. Addressing 5 contract gets us to about 40M in cap space next year (pretty easily). I bet we could another 5-10 (don't know if Floyd is fully off the books) Again I assume Waynes, since his option was already picked up, his 9M is already factored in.

Carve out 3-4 for Harris. 3-4 for the draft. Let's call it 35M.

There is no way they are cutting Reiff. Hopefully he'd take a pay cut, but I bet we don't save 5 Mil.

Griff, Rudolph, Remmers, and Sendejo should be gone. They save us almost $28 mil to add to what the writer said was 7.5 mil in cap space. Last week when I looked we had 9 Mil next year. Must be performance bonuses kicking in. Wow that makes it hard to plan for.

Waynes is factored in, but a potential for savings. His injury history/concussion issues concern me.

Linval is also a candidate for a restructure.

The current cap hit of 182 million only includes 43 players, so there are lots of positions to fill besides the big name front line players.

Below is the # of players signed at each position.

POSITION COUNTS
QB:2
DT:2
RB:2
DE:6
WR:5
OLB:2
TE:3
ILB:2
C:1
FS:1
G:1
SS:1
LT:1
CB:7
RT:1
LS:1
FB:1
K:0
P:0
T:2
S:1
LB:1

_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan

Post #: 1066

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 2:28:29 PM

David F.

Posts: 10833
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

The Barr we saw Sunday was who we drafted.

The Barr we’ve seen for 83.87111% of the time is middling and quite maddening.

You can see how the good Barr can transform our Defense to elite, and beyond like he did Sunday.

He set the tone early, and others joined in. Contagious indeed.

If I’m Spiels I make my call on the two weeks, and hopefully into the playoffs if we bring Barr back or not.

2,3,4,5, 6 more efforts like last Sunday and I resign him.

Yeah, and then you pay him and he returns to middling and quite maddening.

Yep. Barr appears to be the type that goes into cruise control once paid.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!

Post #: 1067

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 2:54:54 PM

Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

The Barr we saw Sunday was who we drafted.

The Barr we’ve seen for 83.87111% of the time is middling and quite maddening.

You can see how the good Barr can transform our Defense to elite, and beyond like he did Sunday.

He set the tone early, and others joined in. Contagious indeed.

If I’m Spiels I make my call on the two weeks, and hopefully into the playoffs if we bring Barr back or not.

2,3,4,5, 6 more efforts like last Sunday and I resign him.

Yeah, and then you pay him and he returns to middling and quite maddening.

Yep. Barr appears to be the type that goes into cruise control once paid.

The point of the post is that if he is a HUGE force in leading us to the Super Bowl, and winning then attitudes will change, and he’ll have to be resigned..

Post #: 1068

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 3:15:39 PM

Trekgeekscott

Posts: 38431
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: kurt bilben

The Barr we saw Sunday was who we drafted.

The Barr we’ve seen for 83.87111% of the time is middling and quite maddening.

You can see how the good Barr can transform our Defense to elite, and beyond like he did Sunday.

He set the tone early, and others joined in. Contagious indeed.

If I’m Spiels I make my call on the two weeks, and hopefully into the playoffs if we bring Barr back or not.

2,3,4,5, 6 more efforts like last Sunday and I resign him.

Yeah, and then you pay him and he returns to middling and quite maddening.

Yep. Barr appears to be the type that goes into cruise control once paid.

The point of the post is that if he is a HUGE force in leading us to the Super Bowl, and winning then attitudes will change, and he’ll have to be resigned..

They didn't let what a player did for the team before make them sign him to a stupid contract (See Keenum, Case). I don't see why they suddenly would here.

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I don't want to go through things that don't kill me and make me stronger anymore.

Post #: 1069

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 3:22:46 PM

Trekgeekscott

Posts: 38431
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

There are starting caliber guards in every draft. Through Williams, mid second round, I believe, every guard drafted is starting - though I didn't see Williams starting last game I watched Dallas (idk if it's injury or performance). I don't know how well each is playing. I assume Nelson is doing well. Ragnow has been inconsistent. Price I think has done well. Wynn injured right? Idk now Corbett or Smith are doing. Daniels and Herndandez are doing very well.

A lot of plug and play options last year. Not sure about next draft. But draft 1 in the top two rounds and look at FA options. A lot of guard FA have been huge disappointments lately.

I still probably let Barr walk. I'm not paying more than we are this year. We might not have the high-end but less downside.

Yep. Look at Indy.

Their OLine was getting Luck killed year after year and they went Nelson and Smith(both starting) early and have turned the team around.

They also got a new coaching staff and Luck is finally healthy after two years on the bench.

_____________________________

I don't want to go through things that don't kill me and make me stronger anymore.

Post #: 1070

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 3:41:42 PM

Bruce Johnson

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Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I'll call Rhodes better, but not WAY better. PFF underrates him, but first team All-Pro was a bit generous IMO. Rhodes and Waynes are both cover corners who are good at coverage, challenging the run, breaking up passes and a little weak at intercepting the ball.

I think Waynes gets beat more often, but has enough speed to compensate most times. He still isn't great at locating the ball.

Mostly I don't think Waynes prevents throws like Rhodes does. And Rhodes is much more often tasked with defending the opponent's best WR.

I think he's significantly better. He's a legit #1 CB that many had as the best CB in the league last year. Waynes is a solid #2 CB.

Waynes has emerged as a solid tackler. I do believe he is an asset to the defense.

Of course he's an asset. He's a good player.

But where are you getting the money to sign him from?

Is having two really expensive CBs PLUS starting quality depth behind them more important than having a serviceable O-Line?

How about more important than a modern TE? Or a viable 3rd WR?

How about more important than having only Kendricks as a proven LBer (almost no way we can resign Waynes and Barr)?

Because you need three quality corner starters and it's not unusual for one of them to be down, so quality depth is a must in a passers league.

That doesn't address the queston at all though. What positions are you stealing from to overload on CB?

For example, Rhodes, Alexander, Hughes and Hill are all better CBs compared to ANYTHING we have at Guard.

Is Waynes more important to you than Barr? Richardson? Because you can likely only keep one of those 3.

Is 5 solid CBs better than no solid OGs?

Guard is the easiest position to fill. They can do it by either free agency or the draft. I would like to see both. Looks like we will have higher draft pick selections this year, too.

If its so easy to fill, why haven't we had a good one in years?

And Guards cost money too. Especially good ones.

I'd love to keep all our good players too, but its not a reasonable take. We can't put all our money into depth at a position of strength while we ignore positions of weakness.

And that's just OG. What about 3rd WR? a modern TE? Possibly LBer and/or DT?

I'm trying to remember who the highest drafted guard has been for the team. I don't believe we have drafted a guard in any of the first three rounds since is it Randall McDaniel? There must be someone more recently. Help me out.

I do believe we paid top money for Remmers, but his first season with us was at tackle. Excluding him, who was the last guard who was a starter on another team that we acquired in free agency? Was it the player we acquired from Seattle in the "poison pill" deal? I'm probably forgetting some obscure player. Maybe you can help me out.

My point is that we simply have not invested serious assets at the guard position. We used a third round pick at center and an end of the second round pick for our rookie tackle. Of course there are reasons for that. One is that cornerback is a more critical position in today's game.

I would like the team to acquire another wide receiver and tight end. I advocated for it in the last draft. We did pick up a tight end later in the draft, but we failed to draft a single receiver to my dismay.

< Message edited by Bruce Johnson -- 12/19/2018 3:48:01 PM >

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?

Post #: 1071

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 3:44:19 PM

Bruce Johnson

Posts: 16353
Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Nah. He's [Waynes] not a liability at all. He's one of the better #2 CBs in the league.

Only because playing #2 CB for the Vikings is one of the easiest jobs in the NFL, having a fierce pass rush, Rhodes on the other side, and a good scheme.

Give Hill or Hughes 8 starts in Wayne's spot, and they will surpass him, make more plays on the ball, smaller cushions, fewer conversions for the opposing team.

Priefer, Waynes and OGs are the weakest spots on the team.

Having Rhodes on the other side makes it tougher for him- not easier. Opposing teams are shying away from Rhodes and picking on Waynes.

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?

Post #: 1072

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 4:22:38 PM

TJSweens

Posts: 44310
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Nah. He's [Waynes] not a liability at all. He's one of the better #2 CBs in the league.

Only because playing #2 CB for the Vikings is one of the easiest jobs in the NFL, having a fierce pass rush, Rhodes on the other side, and a good scheme.

Give Hill or Hughes 8 starts in Wayne's spot, and they will surpass him, make more plays on the ball, smaller cushions, fewer conversions for the opposing team.

Priefer, Waynes and OGs are the weakest spots on the team.

Having Rhodes on the other side makes it tougher for him- not easier. Opposing teams are shying away from Rhodes and picking on Waynes.

Will you stop applying logic to the argument.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1073

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 4:24:00 PM

David Levine

Posts: 76802
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

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ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

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ORIGINAL: David Levine

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ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

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ORIGINAL: David Levine

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ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

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ORIGINAL: David Levine

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ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

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ORIGINAL: David Levine

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ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I'll call Rhodes better, but not WAY better. PFF underrates him, but first team All-Pro was a bit generous IMO. Rhodes and Waynes are both cover corners who are good at coverage, challenging the run, breaking up passes and a little weak at intercepting the ball.

I think Waynes gets beat more often, but has enough speed to compensate most times. He still isn't great at locating the ball.

Mostly I don't think Waynes prevents throws like Rhodes does. And Rhodes is much more often tasked with defending the opponent's best WR.

I think he's significantly better. He's a legit #1 CB that many had as the best CB in the league last year. Waynes is a solid #2 CB.

Waynes has emerged as a solid tackler. I do believe he is an asset to the defense.

Of course he's an asset. He's a good player.

But where are you getting the money to sign him from?

Is having two really expensive CBs PLUS starting quality depth behind them more important than having a serviceable O-Line?

How about more important than a modern TE? Or a viable 3rd WR?

How about more important than having only Kendricks as a proven LBer (almost no way we can resign Waynes and Barr)?

Because you need three quality corner starters and it's not unusual for one of them to be down, so quality depth is a must in a passers league.

That doesn't address the queston at all though. What positions are you stealing from to overload on CB?

For example, Rhodes, Alexander, Hughes and Hill are all better CBs compared to ANYTHING we have at Guard.

Is Waynes more important to you than Barr? Richardson? Because you can likely only keep one of those 3.

Is 5 solid CBs better than no solid OGs?

Guard is the easiest position to fill. They can do it by either free agency or the draft. I would like to see both. Looks like we will have higher draft pick selections this year, too.

If its so easy to fill, why haven't we had a good one in years?

And Guards cost money too. Especially good ones.

I'd love to keep all our good players too, but its not a reasonable take. We can't put all our money into depth at a position of strength while we ignore positions of weakness.

And that's just OG. What about 3rd WR? a modern TE? Possibly LBer and/or DT?

I'm trying to remember who the highest drafted guard has been for the team. I don't believe we have drafted a guard in any of the first three rounds since is it Randall McDaniel? There must be someone more recently. Help me out.

I do believe we paid top money for Remmers, but his first season with us was at tackle. Excluding him, who was the last guard who was a starter on another team that we acquired in free agency? Was it the player we acquired from Seattle in the "poison pill" deal? I'm probably forgetting some obscure player. Maybe you can help me out.

My point is that we simply have not invested serious assets at the guard position. We used a third round pick at center and an end of the second round pick for our rookie tackle. Of course there are reasons for that. One is that cornerback is a more critical position in today's game.

I would like the team to acquire another wide receiver and tight end. I advocated for it in the last draft. We did pick up a tight end later in the draft, but we failed to draft a single receiver to my dismay.

CB is not more critical than O-Line...

And your post just reinforced how hard it is to get good Guards. And how much you have to be willing to pay to get them.

Post #: 1074

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/19/2018 4:29:40 PM

TJSweens

Posts: 44310
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online

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ORIGINAL: David Levine

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ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

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ORIGINAL: David Levine

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ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

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ORIGINAL: David Levine

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ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

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ORIGINAL: David Levine

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ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

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ORIGINAL: David Levine

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ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I'll call Rhodes better, but not WAY better. PFF underrates him, but first team All-Pro was a bit generous IMO. Rhodes and Waynes are both cover corners who are good at coverage, challenging the run, breaking up passes and a little weak at intercepting the ball.

I think Waynes gets beat more often, but has enough speed to compensate most times. He still isn't great at locating the ball.

Mostly I don't think Waynes prevents throws like Rhodes does. And Rhodes is much more often tasked with defending the opponent's best WR.

I think he's significantly better. He's a legit #1 CB that many had as the best CB in the league last year. Waynes is a solid #2 CB.

Waynes has emerged as a solid tackler. I do believe he is an asset to the defense.

Of course he's an asset. He's a good player.

But where are you getting the money to sign him from?

Is having two really expensive CBs PLUS starting quality depth behind them more important than having a serviceable O-Line?

How about more important than a modern TE? Or a viable 3rd WR?

How about more important than having only Kendricks as a proven LBer (almost no way we can resign Waynes and Barr)?

Because you need three quality corner starters and it's not unusual for one of them to be down, so quality depth is a must in a passers league.

That doesn't address the queston at all though. What positions are you stealing from to overload on CB?

For example, Rhodes, Alexander, Hughes and Hill are all better CBs compared to ANYTHING we have at Guard.

Is Waynes more important to you than Barr? Richardson? Because you can likely only keep one of those 3.

Is 5 solid CBs better than no solid OGs?

Guard is the easiest position to fill. They can do it by either free agency or the draft. I would like to see both. Looks like we will have higher draft pick selections this year, too.

If its so easy to fill, why haven't we had a good one in years?

And Guards cost money too. Especially good ones.

I'd love to keep all our good players too, but its not a reasonable take. We can't put all our money into depth at a position of strength while we ignore positions of weakness.

And that's just OG. What about 3rd WR? a modern TE? Possibly LBer and/or DT?

I'm trying to remember who the highest drafted guard has been for the team. I don't believe we have drafted a guard in any of the first three rounds since is it Randall McDaniel? There must be someone more recently. Help me out.

I do believe we paid top money for Remmers, but his first season with us was at tackle. Excluding him, who was the last guard who was a starter on another team that we acquired in free agency? Was it the player we acquired from Seattle in the "poison pill" deal? I'm probably forgetting some obscure player. Maybe you can help me out.

My point is that we simply have not invested serious assets at the guard position. We used a third round pick at center and an end of the second round pick for our rookie tackle. Of course there are reasons for that. One is that cornerback is a more critical position in today's game.

I would like the team to acquire another wide receiver and tight end. I advocated for it in the last draft. We did pick up a tight end later in the draft, but we failed to draft a single receiver to my dismay.

CB is not more critical than O-Line...

And your post just reinforced how hard it is to get good Guards. And how much you have to be willing to pay to get them.

Rhodes is a #1 CB. Alexander has become a top nickle. Hill has shown he can step in and get the job done. Hughes will compete for a starting job next year. That's 4 good corners, with 2 really good candidates to fill that #2 corner position. The Vikings will have an outstanding defensive backfield with or without Waynes. To pay top dollar for the luxury of a 5th starting caliber CB, while other positions badly need to be upgraded just defies logic and common sense.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1075