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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 12:13:15 PM

TJSweens

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I'll call Rhodes better, but not WAY better. PFF underrates him, but first team All-Pro was a bit generous IMO. Rhodes and Waynes are both cover corners who are good at coverage, challenging the run, breaking up passes and a little weak at intercepting the ball.

I think Waynes gets beat more often, but has enough speed to compensate most times. He still isn't great at locating the ball.

Mostly I don't think Waynes prevents throws like Rhodes does. And Rhodes is much more often tasked with defending the opponent's best WR.

I think he's significantly better. He's a legit #1 CB that many had as the best CB in the league last year. Waynes is a solid #2 CB.

I agree, Waynes relies on speed to recover and is not as good at locating the ball. None the less, one way or another Waynes is there when the ball arrives. Rhodes is also much better at jamming the receiver off the line. Waynes has a lot of work to do in that area. The covering the other team's #1 has been a bit overblown IMO. That has been more of a situational thing in games and has been employed less often as Waynes has improved. In all, I agree Rhodes is a legit #1 and in the top grouping of corners. I also think Waynes is a lot better than he is generally given credit for.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1001

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 12:43:59 PM

SoMnFan

Posts: 94902
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Leber liked

Nick Olson

@NicholasJOlson

Pat Shurmur's first TD in 2017: Hurry up offense, trips right, play action boot, RG pulls, flood concept, Diggs wide open for the TD
Kevin Stefanski's first TD in 2018: Hurry up offense, trips right, play action boot, RG pulls, flood concept, Diggs wide open for the TD

Sounds like someone has had some input already, just never got the credit ...
Or maybe saw what worked and went back to it.
Either way, .... improvement.

Post #: 1002

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 12:55:39 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77942
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I'll call Rhodes better, but not WAY better. PFF underrates him, but first team All-Pro was a bit generous IMO. Rhodes and Waynes are both cover corners who are good at coverage, challenging the run, breaking up passes and a little weak at intercepting the ball.

I think Waynes gets beat more often, but has enough speed to compensate most times. He still isn't great at locating the ball.

Mostly I don't think Waynes prevents throws like Rhodes does. And Rhodes is much more often tasked with defending the opponent's best WR.

I think he's significantly better. He's a legit #1 CB that many had as the best CB in the league last year. Waynes is a solid #2 CB.

I agree, Waynes relies on speed to recover and is not as good at locating the ball. None the less, one way or another Waynes is there when the ball arrives. Rhodes is also much better at jamming the receiver off the line. Waynes has a lot of work to do in that area. The covering the other team's #1 has been a bit overblown IMO. That has been more of a situational thing in games and has been employed less often as Waynes has improved. In all, I agree Rhodes is a legit #1 and in the top grouping of corners. I also think Waynes is a lot better than he is generally given credit for.

I like Waynes.

But if its a choice between him and Xavier, its an easy choice for me. Especially with only a 2 year age difference between the 2.

And I just think we have too many other needs to pay 2 CBs top money - especially with Hughes, Mac and Hill on the roster.

Post #: 1003

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 12:58:22 PM

TJSweens

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I'm not advocating keeping both of them. Just comparing them.

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"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1004

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 1:14:19 PM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9563
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

Every game I see Holton Hill play, I'm thinking that we won't be re-signing Waynes.

Waynes is OK but do we really need Rhodes, Hughes, Waynes, Alexander, and Hill? Nope. We sure don't. Waynes can go and we can draft another CB just NOT in rounds one or two.

Rhodes
Hughes
Hill
Alexander
Rookie/low-tier FA

That's plenty good.

Right.

I just don't think its smart value to pay Waynes what he's going to get when we have cheaper options.

What do you anticipate Waynes will cost?

He makes 9M this year.

That number *might* be a bit inflated as its his 4th year option, but there are 20 CBs averaging at least 9M/year and that number will likely rise next year.

So, he'll probably be in the 8-10M/year range would be my guess.

And PFF has always been down on Rhodes. There must be something he does that breaks their system. They had him ranked the #15 CB coming into this year - and that's coming off a year that he was named 1st team All-Pro.

Waynes is much improved, but Rhodes is WAY better.

waynes is has a salary of about $2m this season and a cap hit of about $4m...next season is his 5th year option and he'll make $9m then....

now, we are not completely obligated to pick up that option for next season, but we do have to decide sometime early in 2019 - we could trade him....

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.

Post #: 1005

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 1:15:53 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77942
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

Every game I see Holton Hill play, I'm thinking that we won't be re-signing Waynes.

Waynes is OK but do we really need Rhodes, Hughes, Waynes, Alexander, and Hill? Nope. We sure don't. Waynes can go and we can draft another CB just NOT in rounds one or two.

Rhodes
Hughes
Hill
Alexander
Rookie/low-tier FA

That's plenty good.

Right.

I just don't think its smart value to pay Waynes what he's going to get when we have cheaper options.

What do you anticipate Waynes will cost?

He makes 9M this year.

That number *might* be a bit inflated as its his 4th year option, but there are 20 CBs averaging at least 9M/year and that number will likely rise next year.

So, he'll probably be in the 8-10M/year range would be my guess.

And PFF has always been down on Rhodes. There must be something he does that breaks their system. They had him ranked the #15 CB coming into this year - and that's coming off a year that he was named 1st team All-Pro.

Waynes is much improved, but Rhodes is WAY better.

waynes is has a salary of about $2m this season and a cap hit of about $4m...next season is his 5th year option and he'll make $9m then....

now, we are not completely obligated to pick up that option for next season, but we do have to decide sometime early in 2019 - we could trade him....

Oh right, I was a year off.

But I think the basic premise holds.

Post #: 1006

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 1:22:43 PM

bstinger

Posts: 16530
Joined: 7/20/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
.
Chris Tomasson
@christomasson
With Carolina losing, the #Vikings will clinch a wild-card playoff berth next weekend if Washington loses on Saturday at Tennessee, the Vikings win at Detroit at noon Sunday and Philadelphia loses at home against Houston at noon Sunday.

On the other hand, if Washington and Philly both win this week, Chicago becomes a must win for us because they play each other in week 17, one of them would finish 9-7.

I believe if we win out we are in.

If we don't we will need help.

Yes....

_____________________________

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--twinsfan

Post #: 1007

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 1:24:03 PM

Tom Sykes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I'll call Rhodes better, but not WAY better. PFF underrates him, but first team All-Pro was a bit generous IMO. Rhodes and Waynes are both cover corners who are good at coverage, challenging the run, breaking up passes and a little weak at intercepting the ball.

I think Waynes gets beat more often, but has enough speed to compensate most times. He still isn't great at locating the ball.

Mostly I don't think Waynes prevents throws like Rhodes does. And Rhodes is much more often tasked with defending the opponent's best WR.

I think he's significantly better. He's a legit #1 CB that many had as the best CB in the league last year. Waynes is a solid #2 CB.

I agree, Waynes relies on speed to recover and is not as good at locating the ball. None the less, one way or another Waynes is there when the ball arrives. Rhodes is also much better at jamming the receiver off the line. Waynes has a lot of work to do in that area. The covering the other team's #1 has been a bit overblown IMO. That has been more of a situational thing in games and has been employed less often as Waynes has improved. In all, I agree Rhodes is a legit #1 and in the top grouping of corners. I also think Waynes is a lot better than he is generally given credit for.

Two very different kinds of CBs.

Rhodes is taller and heavier (a lot by CB standards), better in press and more physical in coverage (harder to out-muscle for position and the ball). IMO he's a little over-rated ... I would say he is top 10 CB who sometimes plays to his top 3 or 4 reputation.

Waynes is smaller and faster (in terms of straighline speed although that doesn't always translate to coverage). Not as physical but a better tackler in open space - great technique. I agree that Waynes ball awareness holds him back at this point.

It's unprovable opinion on my part but it always seems like thoroughbred Rhodes has a very low tolerance for nicks and bruises ... while greyhound Waynes gets stung a lot because he wants to be physical, not just a good tackler.

I do agree we are very deep at CB and Spielman should pry Waynes out of Zimmer's greedy paw this offseason and let him walk.

Post #: 1008

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 1:31:40 PM

TJSweens

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My question is ... could Waynes fetch a legit starting OL in the off-season?

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1009

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 2:39:58 PM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9563
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

My question is ... could Waynes fetch a legit starting OL in the off-season?

i think he could...he's a solid #2 and could be a #1 - he's 6'-0" and ran a 4.23/40...plus, he's been developed by one of the best defensive minds in the game and the cb whisperer....

if waynes was made available i bet he'd be the most sought-after cb this offseason....

what about gruden and the raiders? - they've got gabe jackson and kelechi osemele locked up long-term for $9-$10m/yr each....

any interest?

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.

Post #: 1010

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 2:50:15 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77942
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

My question is ... could Waynes fetch a legit starting OL in the off-season?

i think he could...he's a solid #2 and could be a #1 - he's 6'-0" and ran a 4.23/40...plus, he's been developed by one of the best defensive minds in the game and the cb whisperer....

if waynes was made available i bet he'd be the most sought-after cb this offseason....

what about gruden and the raiders? - they've got gabe jackson and kelechi osemele locked up long-term for $9-$10m/yr each....

any interest?

The problem is he doesn't have an attractive contract to other teams. Are teams going to give you full value for a guy that could leave?

Post #: 1011

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 3:08:16 PM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9563
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

My question is ... could Waynes fetch a legit starting OL in the off-season?

i think he could...he's a solid #2 and could be a #1 - he's 6'-0" and ran a 4.23/40...plus, he's been developed by one of the best defensive minds in the game and the cb whisperer....

if waynes was made available i bet he'd be the most sought-after cb this offseason....

what about gruden and the raiders? - they've got gabe jackson and kelechi osemele locked up long-term for $9-$10m/yr each....

any interest?

The problem is he doesn't have an attractive contract to other teams. Are teams going to give you full value for a guy that could leave?

that is true, but they could control him via 5th yr and franchise/transition tag and that might make waynes amenable to signing a new long-term deal - perhaps via sign and trade....

i think that it's doable...and we throw in treadwell....

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.

Post #: 1012

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 3:32:29 PM

Bruce Johnson

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Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

Every game I see Holton Hill play, I'm thinking that we won't be re-signing Waynes.

Waynes is OK but do we really need Rhodes, Hughes, Waynes, Alexander, and Hill? Nope. We sure don't. Waynes can go and we can draft another CB just NOT in rounds one or two.

Rhodes
Hughes
Hill
Alexander
Rookie/low-tier FA

That's plenty good.

I want to keep them all plus I'm good with another one drafted, but as you say not in the first or second round.

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?

Post #: 1013

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 3:34:34 PM

Bruce Johnson

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Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I'll call Rhodes better, but not WAY better. PFF underrates him, but first team All-Pro was a bit generous IMO. Rhodes and Waynes are both cover corners who are good at coverage, challenging the run, breaking up passes and a little weak at intercepting the ball.

I think Waynes gets beat more often, but has enough speed to compensate most times. He still isn't great at locating the ball.

Mostly I don't think Waynes prevents throws like Rhodes does. And Rhodes is much more often tasked with defending the opponent's best WR.

I think he's significantly better. He's a legit #1 CB that many had as the best CB in the league last year. Waynes is a solid #2 CB.

Waynes has emerged as a solid tackler. I do believe he is an asset to the defense.

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?

Post #: 1014

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 3:42:52 PM

TJSweens

Posts: 45022
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

My question is ... could Waynes fetch a legit starting OL in the off-season?

i think he could...he's a solid #2 and could be a #1 - he's 6'-0" and ran a 4.23/40...plus, he's been developed by one of the best defensive minds in the game and the cb whisperer....

if waynes was made available i bet he'd be the most sought-after cb this offseason....

what about gruden and the raiders? - they've got gabe jackson and kelechi osemele locked up long-term for $9-$10m/yr each....

any interest?

The problem is he doesn't have an attractive contract to other teams. Are teams going to give you full value for a guy that could leave?

that is true, but they could control him via 5th yr and franchise/transition tag and that might make waynes amenable to signing a new long-term deal - perhaps via sign and trade....

i think that it's doable...and we throw in treadwell....

Throwing in Treadwell could reduce the quality of the player we get back.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1015

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 3:44:47 PM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9563
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I'll call Rhodes better, but not WAY better. PFF underrates him, but first team All-Pro was a bit generous IMO. Rhodes and Waynes are both cover corners who are good at coverage, challenging the run, breaking up passes and a little weak at intercepting the ball.

I think Waynes gets beat more often, but has enough speed to compensate most times. He still isn't great at locating the ball.

Mostly I don't think Waynes prevents throws like Rhodes does. And Rhodes is much more often tasked with defending the opponent's best WR.

I think he's significantly better. He's a legit #1 CB that many had as the best CB in the league last year. Waynes is a solid #2 CB.

Waynes has emerged as a solid tackler. I do believe he is an asset to the defense.

he is for sure, but he's most likely gone in 2020 and we could possibly turn him into a solid guard this offseason....

the only reason i don't try to trade waynes is if we're thinking 2019 is rhodes last year as a viking....

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.

Post #: 1016

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 3:47:27 PM

Bruce Johnson

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Since Week 8, Mackensie Alexander has been the 4th highest graded CB in the league among qualifying players, per @PFF_KevinR. (Andy Carlson on Twitter)

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?

Post #: 1017

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 3:50:09 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77942
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I'll call Rhodes better, but not WAY better. PFF underrates him, but first team All-Pro was a bit generous IMO. Rhodes and Waynes are both cover corners who are good at coverage, challenging the run, breaking up passes and a little weak at intercepting the ball.

I think Waynes gets beat more often, but has enough speed to compensate most times. He still isn't great at locating the ball.

Mostly I don't think Waynes prevents throws like Rhodes does. And Rhodes is much more often tasked with defending the opponent's best WR.

I think he's significantly better. He's a legit #1 CB that many had as the best CB in the league last year. Waynes is a solid #2 CB.

Waynes has emerged as a solid tackler. I do believe he is an asset to the defense.

Of course he's an asset. He's a good player.

But where are you getting the money to sign him from?

Is having two really expensive CBs PLUS starting quality depth behind them more important than having a serviceable O-Line?

How about more important than a modern TE? Or a viable 3rd WR?

How about more important than having only Kendricks as a proven LBer (almost no way we can resign Waynes and Barr)?

Post #: 1018

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 3:57:46 PM

Bruce Johnson

Posts: 16353
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I'll call Rhodes better, but not WAY better. PFF underrates him, but first team All-Pro was a bit generous IMO. Rhodes and Waynes are both cover corners who are good at coverage, challenging the run, breaking up passes and a little weak at intercepting the ball.

I think Waynes gets beat more often, but has enough speed to compensate most times. He still isn't great at locating the ball.

Mostly I don't think Waynes prevents throws like Rhodes does. And Rhodes is much more often tasked with defending the opponent's best WR.

I think he's significantly better. He's a legit #1 CB that many had as the best CB in the league last year. Waynes is a solid #2 CB.

Waynes has emerged as a solid tackler. I do believe he is an asset to the defense.

Of course he's an asset. He's a good player.

But where are you getting the money to sign him from?

Is having two really expensive CBs PLUS starting quality depth behind them more important than having a serviceable O-Line?

How about more important than a modern TE? Or a viable 3rd WR?

How about more important than having only Kendricks as a proven LBer (almost no way we can resign Waynes and Barr)?

Because you need three quality corner starters and it's not unusual for one of them to be down, so quality depth is a must in a passers league.

_____________________________

We live in a world where we depend upon each other. In other words, we need each other just as God needs us and we need Him. How wonderful it would be if we could unite and live in harmony. Wouldn't it be better that way?

Post #: 1019

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 4:07:10 PM

TJSweens

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Rhodes, Hughes, Alexander, Hill, FA or draft pick. That's pretty good depth at corner.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1020

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 4:08:48 PM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9563
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: offline

.
.
today holton hill is a better player than both rhodes and waynes were their rookie seasons - and possibly even their 2nd seasons....

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.

Post #: 1021

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 4:13:06 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77942
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I'll call Rhodes better, but not WAY better. PFF underrates him, but first team All-Pro was a bit generous IMO. Rhodes and Waynes are both cover corners who are good at coverage, challenging the run, breaking up passes and a little weak at intercepting the ball.

I think Waynes gets beat more often, but has enough speed to compensate most times. He still isn't great at locating the ball.

Mostly I don't think Waynes prevents throws like Rhodes does. And Rhodes is much more often tasked with defending the opponent's best WR.

I think he's significantly better. He's a legit #1 CB that many had as the best CB in the league last year. Waynes is a solid #2 CB.

Waynes has emerged as a solid tackler. I do believe he is an asset to the defense.

Of course he's an asset. He's a good player.

But where are you getting the money to sign him from?

Is having two really expensive CBs PLUS starting quality depth behind them more important than having a serviceable O-Line?

How about more important than a modern TE? Or a viable 3rd WR?

How about more important than having only Kendricks as a proven LBer (almost no way we can resign Waynes and Barr)?

Because you need three quality corner starters and it's not unusual for one of them to be down, so quality depth is a must in a passers league.

That doesn't address the queston at all though. What positions are you stealing from to overload on CB?

For example, Rhodes, Alexander, Hughes and Hill are all better CBs compared to ANYTHING we have at Guard.

Is Waynes more important to you than Barr? Richardson? Because you can likely only keep one of those 3.

Is 5 solid CBs better than no solid OGs?

Post #: 1022

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 5:24:42 PM

Ricky J

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Post #: 1023

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 6:27:58 PM

joejitsu

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I would keep Richardson and launch Waynes, if it was up to me. Hill and Hughes would fill his spot without any letdown. Focus on the offensive and defensive lines and everything will get better.

Post #: 1024

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/18/2018 6:32:25 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77942
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: joejitsu

I would keep Richardson and launch Waynes, if it was up to me. Hill and Hughes would fill his spot without any letdown. Focus on the offensive and defensive lines and everything will get better.

Agreed.

Post #: 1025