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RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/20/2018 8:28:57 PM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

Dieter and Lindstrom look interesting. I doubt the others don't look athletic enough for our scheme, being able to get to second level and block in space is a big need for us.

https://www.prideofdetroit.com/2018/12/20/18130517/2019-nfl-draft-5-sleeper-guard-prospects-detroit-lions

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Post #: 1126

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/20/2018 8:32:30 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77395
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

I stand corrected. H Hill has played 274 of 755 defense snaps. Some of that will be special teams, I don't think the site distinguishes those two. That comes to 36% of the snaps Hill has played. Even adjusting for special teams he is way above 10%.

Color me very impressed.

If Zim and FO can trade Waynes for a second, I say do it.

https://subscribers.footballguys.com/teams/teampage-min-6.php

I think that's just defense.

profootballreference has him at:

DEF: 279 (31.14%)
ST: 232 (58.59%)

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/2018-snap-counts.htm

Post #: 1127

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/20/2018 8:38:32 PM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

I stand corrected. H Hill has played 274 of 755 defense snaps. Some of that will be special teams, I don't think the site distinguishes those two. That comes to 36% of the snaps Hill has played. Even adjusting for special teams he is way above 10%.

Color me very impressed.

If Zim and FO can trade Waynes for a second, I say do it.

https://subscribers.footballguys.com/teams/teampage-min-6.php

I think that's just defense.

profootballreference has him at:

DEF: 279 (31.14%)
ST: 232 (58.59%)

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/2018-snap-counts.htm

Looks like a better source, TY!!

31% as a UDFA/rookie is damn impressive considering I can only think of the TD that he gave up against the Bears as a negative play.

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Post #: 1128

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/20/2018 8:46:50 PM

David Levine

Posts: 77395
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

I stand corrected. H Hill has played 274 of 755 defense snaps. Some of that will be special teams, I don't think the site distinguishes those two. That comes to 36% of the snaps Hill has played. Even adjusting for special teams he is way above 10%.

Color me very impressed.

If Zim and FO can trade Waynes for a second, I say do it.

https://subscribers.footballguys.com/teams/teampage-min-6.php

I think that's just defense.

profootballreference has him at:

DEF: 279 (31.14%)
ST: 232 (58.59%)

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/2018-snap-counts.htm

Looks like a better source, TY!!

31% as a UDFA/rookie is damn impressive considering I can only think of the TD that he gave up against the Bears as a negative play.

And he's made a handful of really good plays. Here are a handful of tweets mentioning him:

Purple Post@Purple_Post
Oct 28
Drew Brees threw for 120 yards, 1 TD, and 1 INT tonight.

An undrafted free agent rookie CB started for our Pro Bowl corner tonight. Holton Hill and Trae Waynes were EXCELLENT. So many factors play into wins & losses. I still feel good about where we're at as a team.

------------------

Adam Patrick@Str8_Cash_Homey
Oct 29
Pretty good starting debut for #Vikings rookie CB Holton Hill last night (against the Saints)
Allowed just 1 catch for 6 yards on 3 targets

------------------

Sean Borman@SeanBoarMan
Nov 18
#Vikings cornerback Holton Hill has allowed an opposing QB rating of 31.9 when targeted this season, per Pro Football Focus.

Through 7 games and 127 snaps he's earned a @PFF grade of 81.4.

Post #: 1129

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/20/2018 10:21:56 PM

Pager

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http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001002257/article/top-10-nfl-defensive-player-of-the-year-candidates

This guy is a clown. Hunter not in the top 10? 2nd in the league in sacks, more tackles for losses than anyone (if I remember right). 60 tackles. Last guy to have these numbers was JJ Watt and he won DPOY. I think Danold should get it and I'm ok with Mack being above Hunter. But Hunter not being in the top 5 shows this guy is a clown.

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Post #: 1130

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 12:55:17 AM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9416
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Barr is 100% gone in my book.

Even I got on him this year...right before the last 2 weeks happened mind you but the last 2 weeks just show what he has and isn't/wasn't giving or being put in the position to give. He's going to get an offer we won't be close to being interested in touching.

could we transition tag barr and then trade him?...is that better than getting a 3rd round compensatory pick the following season?....

the raiders have two solid guards, many draft picks in 2019 and they're $78m under the cap for next season....

we could offer them barr, waynes and sendejo - all trained and developed by one of the best defensive minds ever, and along with their draft they'd have an instant top 10 defense...i think that zimmer's system was asking too much of sendejo, but imo he's still a solid 'strong safety' in a conventional defense....

we get a solid starting guard and a 2nd rounder in '19 and a 3rd runder in '20....

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the journey...is paradise.

Post #: 1131

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 7:26:06 AM

Ian Joseph

Posts: 15350
Joined: 7/15/2007
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline

Barr doesn't have trade value. And to tag him means whatever the contractual price of the tag is immediately applied to your cap. That would limit the hell out of us.

The only way he stays is on a team friendly deal, which in 2019, for a guy with so much potential and about to earn a second contract in an NFL salary cap world of almost 200 million, is out of reach. So, the absolute best case scenario for him (and us) is we win the super bowl, in part because of him on defense and his price tag skyrockets in free agency, as is the case with all super bowl winning free agents. That way, it helps us secure a great compensatory pick in 2020.

YMMV.

< Message edited by Ian Joseph -- 12/21/2018 7:27:08 AM >

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Post #: 1132

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 8:57:33 AM

ronhextall

Posts: 6271
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

The great Zimm needs to do more with less on defense if that is necessary to improve the OL.

I am no draft / cap expert but in broad terms that is my feeling.

Post #: 1133

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 11:22:47 AM

Mark Anderson

Posts: 12099
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Barr is 100% gone in my book.

Even I got on him this year...right before the last 2 weeks happened mind you but the last 2 weeks just show what he has and isn't/wasn't giving or being put in the position to give. He's going to get an offer we won't be close to being interested in touching.

could we transition tag barr and then trade him?...is that better than getting a 3rd round compensatory pick the following season?....

the raiders have two solid guards, many draft picks in 2019 and they're $78m under the cap for next season....

we could offer them barr, waynes and sendejo - all trained and developed by one of the best defensive minds ever, and along with their draft they'd have an instant top 10 defense...i think that zimmer's system was asking too much of sendejo, but imo he's still a solid 'strong safety' in a conventional defense....

we get a solid starting guard and a 2nd rounder in '19 and a 3rd runder in '20....

Transition Tag might not be a bad idea.

It would probably make a team overpay(so we wouldn't match) and lead to a better compensatory pick.

If contract is reasonable to Brez, you match.

Post #: 1134

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 11:25:06 AM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9416
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

Barr doesn't have trade value. And to tag him means whatever the contractual price of the tag is immediately applied to your cap. That would limit the hell out of us.

The only way he stays is on a team friendly deal, which in 2019, for a guy with so much potential and about to earn a second contract in an NFL salary cap world of almost 200 million, is out of reach. So, the absolute best case scenario for him (and us) is we win the super bowl, in part because of him on defense and his price tag skyrockets in free agency, as is the case with all super bowl winning free agents. That way, it helps us secure a great compensatory pick in 2020.

YMMV.

with the transition tag we are allowed to match barr's best offer and keep him - we even get five days to decide....

has any team ever traded a player during the transition tag process?....

_____________________________

the journey...is paradise.

Post #: 1135

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 11:29:49 AM

David Levine

Posts: 77395
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Barr is 100% gone in my book.

Even I got on him this year...right before the last 2 weeks happened mind you but the last 2 weeks just show what he has and isn't/wasn't giving or being put in the position to give. He's going to get an offer we won't be close to being interested in touching.

could we transition tag barr and then trade him?...is that better than getting a 3rd round compensatory pick the following season?....

the raiders have two solid guards, many draft picks in 2019 and they're $78m under the cap for next season....

we could offer them barr, waynes and sendejo - all trained and developed by one of the best defensive minds ever, and along with their draft they'd have an instant top 10 defense...i think that zimmer's system was asking too much of sendejo, but imo he's still a solid 'strong safety' in a conventional defense....

we get a solid starting guard and a 2nd rounder in '19 and a 3rd runder in '20....

Transition Tag might not be a bad idea.

It would probably make a team overpay(so we wouldn't match) and lead to a better compensatory pick.

If contract is reasonable to Brez, you match.

Doesn't the transition tag immediately count against our cap, and only go away if he signs elsewhere?

And I think Top 10 average for LBers is going to be close to 15M this year...

Post #: 1136

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 12:01:02 PM

TJSweens

Posts: 44821
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Barr is 100% gone in my book.

Even I got on him this year...right before the last 2 weeks happened mind you but the last 2 weeks just show what he has and isn't/wasn't giving or being put in the position to give. He's going to get an offer we won't be close to being interested in touching.

could we transition tag barr and then trade him?...is that better than getting a 3rd round compensatory pick the following season?....

the raiders have two solid guards, many draft picks in 2019 and they're $78m under the cap for next season....

we could offer them barr, waynes and sendejo - all trained and developed by one of the best defensive minds ever, and along with their draft they'd have an instant top 10 defense...i think that zimmer's system was asking too much of sendejo, but imo he's still a solid 'strong safety' in a conventional defense....

we get a solid starting guard and a 2nd rounder in '19 and a 3rd runder in '20....

Transition Tag might not be a bad idea.

It would probably make a team overpay(so we wouldn't match) and lead to a better compensatory pick.

If contract is reasonable to Brez, you match.

Doesn't the transition tag immediately count against our cap, and only go away if he signs elsewhere?

And I think Top 10 average for LBers is going to be close to 15M this year...

Slap a transition on Barr and the most likely scenario is that you wind up keeping in 2019 him for even more money than you planned to pay him. Not a good strategy.

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Post #: 1137

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 1:13:36 PM

Mark Anderson

Posts: 12099
Joined: 9/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Barr is 100% gone in my book.

Even I got on him this year...right before the last 2 weeks happened mind you but the last 2 weeks just show what he has and isn't/wasn't giving or being put in the position to give. He's going to get an offer we won't be close to being interested in touching.

could we transition tag barr and then trade him?...is that better than getting a 3rd round compensatory pick the following season?....

the raiders have two solid guards, many draft picks in 2019 and they're $78m under the cap for next season....

we could offer them barr, waynes and sendejo - all trained and developed by one of the best defensive minds ever, and along with their draft they'd have an instant top 10 defense...i think that zimmer's system was asking too much of sendejo, but imo he's still a solid 'strong safety' in a conventional defense....

we get a solid starting guard and a 2nd rounder in '19 and a 3rd runder in '20....

Transition Tag might not be a bad idea.

It would probably make a team overpay(so we wouldn't match) and lead to a better compensatory pick.

If contract is reasonable to Brez, you match.

Doesn't the transition tag immediately count against our cap, and only go away if he signs elsewhere?

And I think Top 10 average for LBers is going to be close to 15M this year...

Slap a transition on Barr and the most likely scenario is that you wind up keeping in 2019 him for even more money than you planned to pay him. Not a good strategy.

OK. Scrap that idea.

Post #: 1138

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 1:34:57 PM

Ricky J

Posts: 18332
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

Promoted

VikingUpdate.com

@VikingUpdate

·

59m

Eric Kendricks is out for the #Vikings on Sunday. That's it for the Vikings injuries. Linval Joseph will play

- ouch (i wouldnt feel as bad if it was Barr)

Post #: 1139

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 4:30:49 PM

Todd M

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Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Promoted

VikingUpdate.com

@VikingUpdate

·

59m

Eric Kendricks is out for the #Vikings on Sunday. That's it for the Vikings injuries. Linval Joseph will play

- ouch (i wouldnt feel as bad if it was Barr)

Sucks right? Made the Pro Bowl AND not the injured LB out for the game.

Post #: 1140

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 5:12:24 PM

Jeff Jesser

Posts: 19212
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: offline

In all fairness, when used right (and seems to care) Barr has many more impact plays. Probably not as overall valuable as EK though.

Post #: 1141

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 5:19:40 PM

Todd M

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Status: offline

The thing about it is - Kendricks can disappear, not make any splash plays, get swept out by misdirection etc...and never draws any negativity from posters.

Post #: 1142

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 5:49:48 PM

Jeff Jesser

Posts: 19212
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: offline

Very true. I think he gets a pass because he's been "Johnny Hustle" even when not making plays. You can see Barr coast at times.

Post #: 1143

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 6:14:56 PM

Phil Riewer

Posts: 26892
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

Promoted

VikingUpdate.com

@VikingUpdate

·

59m

Eric Kendricks is out for the #Vikings on Sunday. That's it for the Vikings injuries. Linval Joseph will play

- ouch (i wouldnt feel as bad if it was Barr)

He has played hurt almost all year....

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Post #: 1144

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 6:32:02 PM

Ricky J

Posts: 18332
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

-Chris Tomasson

@christomasson

#Vikings co-offensive line coach Clancy Barone on rookie starting tackle Brian O'Neill: "Some of the so-called experts said that he was going to be like a three-year project or whatever and that has not been the case.''

-
Tim Brown

@TMBScouting

·

2h

I thought for sure he was going to need a red shirt year. Strength was a serious concern. But damn if he hasn’t been OUTSTANDING. He, Reiff, and Elflein should be the only returning starting lineman come next season

Post #: 1145

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 7:01:03 PM

Todd M

Posts: 40127
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

Man I wish there was a guy and we had the draft stock to move up in the draft and shake things up doing it for a premier LT. One really good guard in FA and we are a long way to being set for years.

Post #: 1146

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 7:51:08 PM

Ian Joseph

Posts: 15350
Joined: 7/15/2007
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian Joseph

Barr doesn't have trade value. And to tag him means whatever the contractual price of the tag is immediately applied to your cap. That would limit the hell out of us.

The only way he stays is on a team friendly deal, which in 2019, for a guy with so much potential and about to earn a second contract in an NFL salary cap world of almost 200 million, is out of reach. So, the absolute best case scenario for him (and us) is we win the super bowl, in part because of him on defense and his price tag skyrockets in free agency, as is the case with all super bowl winning free agents. That way, it helps us secure a great compensatory pick in 2020.

YMMV.

with the transition tag we are allowed to match barr's best offer and keep him - we even get five days to decide....

has any team ever traded a player during the transition tag process?....

I've seen it multiple times.

_____________________________

Hate the message, not the messenger.

Enjoy the process; crave the goal.

Believe.

Post #: 1147

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 7:52:59 PM

Ian Joseph

Posts: 15350
Joined: 7/15/2007
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Barr is 100% gone in my book.

Even I got on him this year...right before the last 2 weeks happened mind you but the last 2 weeks just show what he has and isn't/wasn't giving or being put in the position to give. He's going to get an offer we won't be close to being interested in touching.

could we transition tag barr and then trade him?...is that better than getting a 3rd round compensatory pick the following season?....

the raiders have two solid guards, many draft picks in 2019 and they're $78m under the cap for next season....

we could offer them barr, waynes and sendejo - all trained and developed by one of the best defensive minds ever, and along with their draft they'd have an instant top 10 defense...i think that zimmer's system was asking too much of sendejo, but imo he's still a solid 'strong safety' in a conventional defense....

we get a solid starting guard and a 2nd rounder in '19 and a 3rd runder in '20....

Transition Tag might not be a bad idea.

It would probably make a team overpay(so we wouldn't match) and lead to a better compensatory pick.

If contract is reasonable to Brez, you match.

Doesn't the transition tag immediately count against our cap, and only go away if he signs elsewhere?

And I think Top 10 average for LBers is going to be close to 15M this year...

Yes to your first question.

_____________________________

Hate the message, not the messenger.

Enjoy the process; crave the goal.

Believe.

Post #: 1148

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/21/2018 8:35:47 PM

Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

-Chris Tomasson

@christomasson

#Vikings co-offensive line coach Clancy Barone on rookie starting tackle Brian O'Neill: "Some of the so-called experts said that he was going to be like a three-year project or whatever and that has not been the case.''

-
Tim Brown

@TMBScouting

·

2h

I thought for sure he was going to need a red shirt year. Strength was a serious concern. But damn if he hasn’t been OUTSTANDING. He, Reiff, and Elflein should be the only returning starting lineman come next season

Well hell, we’ll take whatever we can get when it comes to Offensive line victories.

Make no mistake O’Neill thus far is a victory for us. There is a distinct difference between him and Hill, and even Remmers.

Spiels gets kudos on this, however at least another FA guard would’ve certainly eased the rightful criticism he is getting for the rest of the OLine.

Post #: 1149

RE: General Vikes Talk - 12/22/2018 2:02:34 AM

ratoppenheimer

Posts: 9416
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Man I wish there was a guy and we had the draft stock to move up in the draft and shake things up doing it for a premier LT. One really good guard in FA and we are a long way to being set for years.

o'neill looks so athletic for an offensive lineman...i think that he is our future left tackle and it wouldn't surprise me if we flipped o'neill and reiff next season to see how that works...i think we select a guard in the 1st and then go rt in the 4th...we need a lb and a te early too....

remmers best position seems to be right tackle and for that reason i think that we could keep him....

we've got aviante collins on ir....

"Collins was the top performer at his position in the 2017 NFL Combine; his official 4.81-second 40-yard dash is the third-fastest time ever by an offensive lineman, trailing only Terron Armstead (4.71 seconds) and Lane Johnson (4.72 seconds) on the all-time list. He also bench pressed 225 pounds 34 times, which tied for the second-best mark among all participants at the Combine.[3]"

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the journey...is paradise.

Post #: 1150