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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/15/2019 10:22:58 PM

Jeff Jesser

Posts: 19069
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

The sin, if it is one, goes back to not having a viable backup when Teddy went down or not taking our lumps. Instead, we trade a first and a fourth for Bradford and things unravel from there. He may be the original Cousins, if Kirk remains on his current path. I had no issue abandoning Keenum, but his Houdini act was largely responsible for the 13-3 season. Trouble is, he's not a good thrower.

If we take our lumps in 2016, we're likely in a position to draft Mahomes or Watson in the next draft, or easily trade up to do so. Other than Teddy---still an unknown---Spielman has made two highly questionable decisions on QBs (Bradford and Cousins) and one good one on a backup (Case). The questionable ones my end up wasting a Super Bowl window.

Pretty accurate assessment...

It's dead on. Think about our QB situation over the past 20 years (in a league that has been slowly/quickly becoming a passing league):

Moon
George
Culpepper (finally a good decision that went bad due to injury)
Mcnabb
Favre
Keenum
Bradford
Cousins
Bollinger

- really?

this is a partial list but illustrates we have not addressed, what has become the lifeblood of the NFL since Culpepper.

Post #: 626

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/15/2019 10:24:02 PM

Jeff Jesser

Posts: 19069
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Cousins crapped the bed.
Zimmer's D wasn't properly prepped
Officials didn't call a fair game

If we take away even one of those we win the game but unfortunately they all happened. Running game looks great, Oline is 'ok', defense was lights out after they figured out that Devonte Adams is kind of a big deal. I'm just trying to toss out a few positives. Punting game was awesome!

Dude spent time in Cleveland recently. Tons of reps. He should be.

Post #: 627

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/15/2019 10:25:44 PM

Bruce Johnson

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Joined: 8/27/2007
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I feel sad and I'm sure the rest of you feel sad. We have to move on. It is just one game. We could a would a should a, but we didn't. It's over and hopefully they learn a thing or two and do better. We can only hope.

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Post #: 628

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/15/2019 10:31:42 PM

bohumm

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
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As several of us continually point out, today and before, given the available options Kirk for three years was a good swing. It was never going to cost us less and be anything but fully guaranteed thanks to the Jets, at least. You can make a case for Case or Teddy, but we did not have sure-fire options. He still has a chance to succeed, though, so I'm presently discouraged by not giving up.

Post #: 629

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/15/2019 10:38:26 PM

drviking

Posts: 36160
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: South Dakota
Status: offline

Really frustrating

They were begging us to win.

Lots of blame to go around

🤬

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Post #: 630

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/15/2019 10:39:52 PM

drviking

Posts: 36160
Joined: 7/17/2007
From: South Dakota
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

As several of us continually point out, today and before, given the available options Kirk for three years was a good swing. It was never going to cost us less and be anything but fully guaranteed thanks to the Jets, at least. You can make a case for Case or Teddy, but we did not have sure-fire options. He still has a chance to succeed, though, so I'm presently discouraged by not giving up.

It was the right thing to do at the time

Not looking promising

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Post #: 631

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/15/2019 10:55:24 PM

Jeff Jesser

Posts: 19069
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

As several of us continually point out, today and before, given the available options Kirk for three years was a good swing. It was never going to cost us less and be anything but fully guaranteed thanks to the Jets, at least. You can make a case for Case or Teddy, but we did not have sure-fire options. He still has a chance to succeed, though, so I'm presently discouraged by not giving up.

It was the right thing to do at the time

Not looking promising

Yet, and again, so I don't get roasted, lets look beyond him (even though he sucked today). Shitty ST's, 21-0 on a Defensive guru led team before we were even warm.

This issues with this team run deeper than Cousins (and again, he was shit today (and has not lived up to his contract….so far). This teams success does not hinge, solely, on KC.

I get it. He was crap. Totally. And, we signed him to a huge deal. If we are expecting to have shitty ST's, every year, and a D that lets us down constantly when we need them, who gives a F what QB we bring in. It's not 100% about the QB. We are systematically flawed as an org.

Post #: 632

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/15/2019 10:55:53 PM

Dave Odle

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From: Caddo Mills, TX
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Nope. Our return on investment is sucking and Cousins knows it.

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Post #: 633

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/15/2019 11:11:56 PM

Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

The sin, if it is one, goes back to not having a viable backup when Teddy went down or not taking our lumps. Instead, we trade a first and a fourth for Bradford and things unravel from there. He may be the original Cousins, if Kirk remains on his current path. I had no issue abandoning Keenum, but his Houdini act was largely responsible for the 13-3 season. Trouble is, he's not a good thrower.

If we take our lumps in 2016, we're likely in a position to draft Mahomes or Watson in the next draft, or easily trade up to do so. Other than Teddy---still an unknown---Spielman has made two highly questionable decisions on QBs (Bradford and Cousins) and one good one on a backup (Case). The questionable ones my end up wasting a Super Bowl window.

Pretty accurate assessment...

It's dead on. Think about our QB situation over the past 20 years (in a league that has been slowly/quickly becoming a passing league):

Moon
George
Culpepper (finally a good decision that went bad due to injury)
Mcnabb
Favre
Keenum
Bradford
Cousins
Bollinger - really?

this is a partial list but illustrates we have not addressed, what has become the lifeblood of the NFL since Culpepper.

Young QB’s with promise are not high on our priority list as this preseason plainly shows.

I firmly believe something has occurred politically in our front office between Spielman and Zimmer.

Zimmer seems to have little patience for Spielman’s projects like Vedvik (Rightfully so) Sloter (Not so wise IMO)

Be interested to know if Spiels/ Zim we’re both fully in on Cousins signing?

They certainly must know they are chained to Cousins. Gotta be a scary thought after that shit show of an ending.

Post #: 634

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/15/2019 11:15:03 PM

Jeff Jesser

Posts: 19069
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Odle

Nope. Our return on investment is sucking and Cousins knows it.

Agree, but as fans, we need to get off this angle. We have bigger problems. He's here for this and next, max, unless we "Wild him" and give him a 27 year no trade clause contract". Were we solid on ST's/Kicking before Cousins? What about the D shitting the bed when we needed them most?

I am not a KC apologist. He sucked big time today and that INT was the game decision. Won't deny that.

that being said, if Bailey makes a FG that isn't out of the norm and Diggs doesn't F us with his stupidity, we are a chip shot away from watching Rodgers engineer a miracle comeback after they spoil the lead late.

That last point was a shot at Zimmer and his D. I'm tired of his shit D either:

Coming out and giving up 21 in the first series of the 2nd ****ing quarter
Shitting the bed late, with soft zones, to give them a late FG opp to get the W

They show signs of domination and Zimmer just lets team back in or take a huge lead we can't overcome. It's maddening.

Post #: 635

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/15/2019 11:22:25 PM

beo

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Joined: 3/18/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Odle

Nope. Our return on investment is sucking and Cousins knows it.

Agree, but as fans, we need to get off this angle. We have bigger problems. He's here for this and next, max, unless we "Wild him" and give him a 27 year no trade clause contract". Were we solid on ST's/Kicking before Cousins? What about the D shitting the bed when we needed them most?

I am not a KC apologist. He sucked big time today and that INT was the game decision. Won't deny that.

that being said, if Bailey makes a FG that isn't out of the norm and Diggs doesn't F us with his stupidity, we are a chip shot away from watching Rodgers engineer a miracle comeback after they spoil the lead late.

That last point was a shot at Zimmer and his D. I'm tired of his shit D either:

Coming out and giving up 21 in the first series of the 2nd ****ing quarter
Shitting the bed late, with soft zones, to give them a late FG opp to get the W

They show signs of domination and Zimmer just lets team back in or take a huge lead we can't overcome. It's maddening.

Disagree a bit... the defense sucked out of the gate... but at least 2 points...
1) Kirk handed them a short field on the third touchdown
2) The SHUT OUT the pack the 2nd half... you can't ask much more than that.

Bottom line... today's NFL... if the defense holds opponent to 21 points you have to win that game.

Kirk was in a position to be the hero.

In fact, last year in the 1st couple of games he was that guy.

He has totally failed to rise to the occasion since then.

For me, it's on him.

Post #: 636

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/15/2019 11:32:08 PM

Rob Viking

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As tough as a loss that was, you have to appreciate the fight to come back and really dominate the Packers for 3 quarters.

I don't blame Stefanski for the call, Kirk has Thielen for 4 yards, but he felt the need to get it to Diggs who was open for a moment. It could be a season changing moment because the OLine and the run game were making a statement on that drive.

Post #: 637

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/15/2019 11:44:19 PM

Jeff Jesser

Posts: 19069
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Southern Cal
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Odle

Nope. Our return on investment is sucking and Cousins knows it.

Agree, but as fans, we need to get off this angle. We have bigger problems. He's here for this and next, max, unless we "Wild him" and give him a 27 year no trade clause contract". Were we solid on ST's/Kicking before Cousins? What about the D shitting the bed when we needed them most?

I am not a KC apologist. He sucked big time today and that INT was the game decision. Won't deny that.

that being said, if Bailey makes a FG that isn't out of the norm and Diggs doesn't F us with his stupidity, we are a chip shot away from watching Rodgers engineer a miracle comeback after they spoil the lead late.

That last point was a shot at Zimmer and his D. I'm tired of his shit D either:

Coming out and giving up 21 in the first series of the 2nd ****ing quarter
Shitting the bed late, with soft zones, to give them a late FG opp to get the W

They show signs of domination and Zimmer just lets team back in or take a huge lead we can't overcome. It's maddening.

Disagree a bit... the defense sucked out of the gate... but at least 2 points...
1) Kirk handed them a short field on the third touchdown
2) The SHUT OUT the pack the 2nd half... you can't ask much more than that.

Bottom line... today's NFL... if the defense holds opponent to 21 points you have to win that game.

Kirk was in a position to be the hero.

In fact, last year in the 1st couple of games he was that guy.

He has totally failed to rise to the occasion since then.

For me, it's on him.

Oh, no doubt it's on him. Sorry if that wasn't clear. His head is gone and we are stuck with him. What my bigger contention with this team is, now what?

We have had questionable to really bad QB and ST's play since Zimmer has been in MN. We are looking to have it again and it sucks. I get it, we spent on the QB now to get us up to speed and get us over the hump. It's not working and we are stuck for this and next.

Was Keenum the problem in the NFCCG game or did we go down and take the lead and then wilt? Was the ST's able to hit a freaking chip shot in Seattle to win a game on the road in the "hardest" place to win in the NFL?

Did the D let us down again when we needed them, like they seemingly always do? With the amount of money spent on the D, neglecting the OLine like we do, we cannot find it acceptable to go down 21-0 unless they are an offensive TD, ST's TD and a D return for a TD in, essentially, 1 quarter of football. Don't get me wrong, it's not acceptable but at least it doesn't pin it all on the D. The first quarter D had do many wide open guys running around you or I could made some completions.

When the F is Minnesota going to ask Zimmer why he can't, with the money spent on the D, win a game on D.

Again, Cousins lost this game with the INT but if the other facets of the team did their job he wouldn't have been in position to.

We lost 4 points on another missed FG and Diggs being stupid. If we have those 4 points we could have run the clock down, missed the easy FG to win it and be bitching about another topic

Being a Viking fan….

Post #: 638

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/16/2019 12:40:45 AM

Ragnarök

Posts: 2274
Status: offline

"When she was good,. She was very very good,. But when she was bad she was horrid."

30 more games with a QB that has no pocket presence or awareness...

Not correctable...

Not something you can scheme around...

Not entirely a fatal flaw (Ponderesque), but one that rears its ugly head in the biggest moments and crushes your hopes time after time....

He cannot feel the pressure, where its coming from or how the clock in his head is coolly surveying to make the correct throw in allotted time. No timing, all panic, Panic to such bone headed blunder its alarming...

He could cover up part of the stink of his game by being a great leader, having his teammates rally around him and believe, but this isnt in his make up either, there is not one drive, not one down of Minneapolis Miracle in Kirks persona as a QB, he has no killer instinct and possesses not ounce of "place the team on my shoulders and will us to a win with nasty tough assed attitude"... but he is a nice guy, good god loving family man and obviously great in film room and practice... Says all the right things and always has a sense of remorse when it goes the wrong way... HE JUST ISNT A WINNER, but he is a nice guy... Maybe he is a bit too Ponderesque?....

Sad to see but 30 more games where we are wasting another team with great talent that some felt had a window of greatness just removed from the NFCCG loss that seems so long ago now...

< Message edited by Ragnarök -- 9/16/2019 1:26:34 AM >

Post #: 639

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/16/2019 2:44:39 AM

Dana Turner

Posts: 1958
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Viking

As tough as a loss that was, you have to appreciate the fight to come back and really dominate the Packers for 3 quarters.

I don't blame Stefanski for the call, Kirk has Thielen for 4 yards, but he felt the need to get it to Diggs who was open for a moment. It could be a season changing moment because the OLine and the run game were making a statement on that drive.

Great point Rob, he could have done a few other things that wouldn't have cost us the game, he just chose not to.

My 02. cents:

1. The team took one quarter to get in to this fight, for me, that is a calling card of Zimmers and I've been talking about it far too long. There have simply been too many games where we are slow to start, this was just another one of them. Hell, the first play to Adams from Rogers was for like 30 yards, hello!!

2. The Cousins interception in the end zone was bad, but really, just to be honest, he had multiple plays that he just simply sucked on. There was a third down pass that he zinged through Diggs hands, several missed throws, hell, a couple of them there was zero pressure. I'm not a fan, but he's only proving my dislike for him to right on cue, thanks!

3. I watched the tape for a couple of hours, the O-line had a good day. Were there mistakes, you betcha, but over the course of the game, in a hostile environment, one starter not there, they did pretty good. I like the direction of this group, and I like DD at guard, he had a few really nice plays and a solid game. Yes, he did also make a couple of mistakes, but they all did.

4. Our new punter is good.

5. Hats off to the defense for holding the Packers to zero points for the last 44 minutes of a 60 minute contest, great effort after a pretty lame start.

6. There are very few men that you meet in life like Bud Grant, it makes you appreciate the guys you know that are like him as apposed to the guys that are trying to act like him. It's one thing to talk tough, it's another to BE tough. Zimmer doesn't have the kind of respect your looking for in a coach, he has his moments and is a solid defensive mind, but he scares the shit out of some of his players and doesn't instill confidence as a leader, you can see it in guys like Cousins and even Bailey. Cousins needs guidance from a man, not glares of disappointment. You can see Cousins is a fragile psyche, you've got to hit him with tough confidence, positive challenges, Zimmer just glares and pouts, won't talk to them because their not tough like him. The guy is simply not a head coach. You wanna see a head coach, Kubiak is a head coach, he just can't handle the pressure any longer. RS is not the problem with this team, he's going to loose his job with Zimmer, but RS is not the problem.

I know that last paragraph is going to make some people say, "Sheesh, it was only one game and it was in a place we rarely win, and we should have won". That's not my point. I've just seen enough of the sample size to recognize something i have seen far too many times. The Vikings are my team and I will always want them to win, can't stop loving them, but I don't have to like the product being displayed on the field. That is a reflection of the head coach, and although last week was fun to watch, this week was a whole bunch of what we've seen before. Hard to get your hopes up for that!

Post #: 640

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/16/2019 3:02:34 AM

Todd M

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Not a lot had to go differently to get that W. Cousins takes the blame, as he should.

I'm not going to live and die each week and run in to re-affirm my doubts in this that or the other thing.

I know some of you know exactly how this is going to go and will wait for the other shoe to drop but I still believe we have what it takes and we'll see them put it all together.

Just to note...when Rodgers connects on his next hail mary and the review booth lets a couple super egregious pushes in the back in the end zone go that might kill my love for the game.

Post #: 641

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/16/2019 7:31:00 AM

Bill Jandro

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Positive takeaways

1. After the D gave up TD's on the first 3 drives Zimmer adjusted and they shut them down for the final 3 qtrs.

2. Kubiak is a sourcerer. His ozb scheme really works considering how bad our running attack was last year.

3. Cook was amazing. H Smith as well.

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Oline...early and often this draft

Post #: 642

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/16/2019 7:36:56 AM

Richard Neussendorfer

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From: Alamogordo, NM
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

Positive takeaways

1. After the D gave up TD's on the first 3 drives Zimmer adjusted and they shut them down for the final 3 qtrs.

2. Kubiak is a sourcerer. His ozb scheme really works considering how bad our running attack was last year.

3. Cook was amazing. H Smith as well.

A healthy Cook is just superb!

Post #: 643

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/16/2019 7:44:49 AM

Bill Johanesen

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Cousins seemed to age five years. He had little pocket presence, mentally but also physically. Almost frail back there. Felt like I was watching a 37 year old retread in his attempted last hurrah that you know is going to end bad.

He is cerebral, my guess is he is all caught up on how bad concussions are. Maybe he has he gone into preservation mode.

He is goal oriented and said he has numbers but wants to be a winner. He has a little less than two years to prove it.

Or maybe he has rationalized, analyzed, and adjusted his goals. Come out of this wealthy and intact mentally and physically.

Post #: 644

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/16/2019 8:02:50 AM

Phil Riewer

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The pass offense as a whole has sucked.....Just think where we would be without the Beebe play and the Diggs long TD. I think another week with Diggs completely healthy with his hammy and we start integrating the rookie WR and Irv Smith more it should be better.

Cousins did make great throws/plays on those two plays....(Diggs TD and waited for Beebe forever to clear)

Remember we didn't work any rust out last week by throwing 10 times.

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 9/16/2019 8:07:17 AM >

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/16/2019 8:06:11 AM

Bill Johanesen

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No reason not to go run first, even with the rule changes (except the latest subjective BS regarding downfield blocking during passes).

Mattison has a little bit of Beast Mode in him, although he's closer to being Scottie Graham II.

Post #: 646

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/16/2019 8:12:12 AM

Bill Jandro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Cousins seemed to age five years. He had little pocket presence, mentally but also physically. Almost frail back there. Felt like I was watching a 37 year old retread in his attempted last hurrah that you know is going to end bad.

He is cerebral, my guess is he is all caught up on how bad concussions are. Maybe he has he gone into preservation mode.

He is goal oriented and said he has numbers but wants to be a winner. He has a little less than two years to prove it.

Or maybe he has rationalized, analyzed, and adjusted his goals. Come out of this wealthy and intact mentally and physically.

Well put

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Post #: 647

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/16/2019 8:26:33 AM

ronhextall

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Cousins is experienced enough and paid enough to be an elite QB. A guy that on occasion carries his team to victories.

He has failed time after time when called upon to do just that, put the team on his back and win in spite of everything else.

He fails seemingly every time.

Damn near impossible to win Super Bowl without that type of QB. Especially with the rules now where the refs will force you to win a shootout and you may be robbed of TDs with off the ball penalties after the fact.

Feels like the next chance to win a Super Bowl is now 4 to 5 years away. Need Cousins gone and the time to groom another starter.

< Message edited by ronhextall -- 9/16/2019 8:31:23 AM >

Post #: 648

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/16/2019 8:44:48 AM

SteveR

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I never got to see the game because life intruded. I did check the score early to see 21-0 and thought at least I picked a good game to miss. I checked the score again toward the end and saw they were on the verge of getting back into it, but they couldn't close the deal. I have since read up on what all happened.

I'm not really too exasperated, though. It seems like par for the course for a Speilman/Zimmer team at this stage, QB'ed by Cousins. At one time I was okay with the Cousins signing. I now freely admit that was a grievous error. They are still where I expected them to be at this point in the season, though. I thought they'd lose to the Falcons and beat the Packers.

We are basically a "BUT" team. As in, sure our defense gave up 21 immediate points, BUT they played great after that...

We'll see how they do against the Raiders.

Post #: 649

RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/16/2019 8:53:58 AM

Trekgeekscott

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Game Started horribly.

Defense took way too long to adjust and put us in a 21-0 hole, But after that was incredible. Packers couldn't hardly get anything going after the first Qutr. Gave our offense a chance to win.
Special Teams - coverage teams good. Return teams adequate. Punter did a great job and Bailey killed us with two misses. Seriously? Why can't we get a kicker that can reliably kick the ****ing ball?
Offense - Where do I begin? Cook was studly. Mattison did great as well. Thielen wasnt much of a factor. Diggs seemed out of synch. Balls bouncing off his hands. Helmet thing was just boneheaded. I can actually give Bailey a pass on the xpt because of it. Couple big plays but some dumbfucking decisions in this game. What the **** are you doing throwing into double coverage in the endzone? Throw it a way and take another shot next play. Down by 5 fourth quarter 3rd and 10 is not the time to take big shots downfield. It is imperative to keep the sticks moving at that point. Playcalling was, shall we say, terrible. Cousins did us no favor with his play. None. This performance tells me all I need to know. Next offseason we need to draft the next QBOTF and make Cousins earn the ****ing paycheck. We need him to win some big games. I hate losing to Aaron Rodgers and the Packers.

Oh, and as usual the Refs contributed way too much to the Packers victory. Phantom holing calls on Vikings, none on Packers, OFFENSIVE PASS INTERFERENCE THREE TIMES???? and most were questinable at best. Vikkings get driving and predictably there's a holding call...

And WTF did that crew need to have a conference call every ****ing time they threw a flag? Seriously did they need to discuss how to screw the Vikings with that flag?

< Message edited by Trekgeekscott -- 9/16/2019 8:57:09 AM >

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