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RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/26/2021 7:36:10 PM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

If Spielman was just a cunningly smart Machiavellian bastard ...

I could sit anxiously through the draft with some confidence in a larger scheme coming together.

As it is, Spiels has shown no urgency in planning or building a solid OLine.

He has bumped up his game to atleast one OL in the first three rds of the last four drafts BUT he has never drafted two OL in the first three rounds. Never.

Coming away with one of the following players is my expectation. Two would be a very pleasant surprise. Even the last two on the lists, Little and Banks.

Three? I'd be stunned. Kneeling with hands clasped in religious ecstasy. Cousins-like before games, meals and choosing shampoos.

Penei Sewell
Rashawn Slater
Christian Darisaw
Teven Jenkins
Sam Cosmi
Jalen Mayfield
Alex Leatherwood
Liam Eichenberg
Dillon Radunz
Spencer Brown
Walker Little

Alijah Vera-Tucker
Wyatt Davis
Creed Humphrey C/G
Landon Dickerson C/G
Jackson Carman
Trey Smith
Deonte Brown
Ben Cleveland
Kendrick Green
Aaron Banks

+1

Cleveland to LT and two from the guard list. Get a couple of guards like those Tampa Bay dudes who kept looking over at the KC defense in the SB and chuckled.

Cleveland / Vera-Tucker / Bradbury / Trey Smith / O'Neill

Are you predicting that because its a good or a bad thing?

Or because you are desperate to win the draft challenge and add it to your resume?

Post #: 1226

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/26/2021 7:39:14 PM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Sewell drops to 7 and the Vikings trade up w/Lions.

What would that require?

I'm really weak approximating draft value and I'm too lazy to google Jimmy Johnson's chart.

Like #14 + a #2 we don't have + a #3?

More than that?

Number 14 and a 2022 first rounder

Sounds about right. And I would think about that if the Spielman OL Curse wasn't part of the deal.

Post #: 1227

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/26/2021 7:39:39 PM

Todd M

Posts: 40689
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Sewell drops to 7 and the Vikings trade up w/Lions.

What would that require?

I'm really weak approximating draft value and I'm too lazy to google Jimmy Johnson's chart.

Like #14 + a #2 we don't have + a #3?

More than that?

Number 14 and a 2022 first rounder

That's the exact value needed but I think we might have to sweeten the pot with a 4th.

Post #: 1228

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/26/2021 8:21:00 PM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

It happens every draft.

I'm furious with the ineptitude of the team.

Nothing but four #1 picks will satisfy my draft bloodlust.

Then the week of the draft and I start to quiver with anticipation.

By Monday after the draft I'm stoked for a championship season, like no other team was involved in the draft.

The NFL is worse than the tobacco industry.

Best post maybe ever from you Tom.

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.

Post #: 1229

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/26/2021 8:23:42 PM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Sewell drops to 7 and the Vikings trade up w/Lions.

Only T I'm ok with moving up for. Sewell is two years younger than Slater (if I remember right), easily the best T prospect this year.

Otherwise I'm good with Bill's projected oline. And hoping the draft falls just right where there's a team desperate to trade up 3-6 spots, overpays and we get better value with AVT.

< Message edited by Pager -- 4/26/2021 8:25:04 PM >

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.

Post #: 1230

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 7:51:41 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28604
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

If Spielman was just a cunningly smart Machiavellian bastard ...

I could sit anxiously through the draft with some confidence in a larger scheme coming together.

As it is, Spiels has shown no urgency in planning or building a solid OLine.

He has bumped up his game to atleast one OL in the first three rds of the last four drafts BUT he has never drafted two OL in the first three rounds. Never.

Coming away with one of the following players is my expectation. Two would be a very pleasant surprise. Even the last two on the lists, Little and Banks.

Three? I'd be stunned. Kneeling with hands clasped in religious ecstasy. Cousins-like before games, meals and choosing shampoos.

Penei Sewell
Rashawn Slater
Christian Darisaw
Teven Jenkins
Sam Cosmi
Jalen Mayfield
Alex Leatherwood
Liam Eichenberg
Dillon Radunz
Spencer Brown
Walker Little

Alijah Vera-Tucker
Wyatt Davis
Creed Humphrey C/G
Landon Dickerson C/G
Jackson Carman
Trey Smith
Deonte Brown
Ben Cleveland
Kendrick Green
Aaron Banks

+1

Cleveland to LT and two from the guard list. Get a couple of guards like those Tampa Bay dudes who kept looking over at the KC defense in the SB and chuckled.

Cleveland / Vera-Tucker / Bradbury / Trey Smith / O'Neill

Are you predicting that because its a good or a bad thing?

Or because you are desperate to win the draft challenge and add it to your resume?

More or less a prediction based on what has to be done. With Spielman, who knows.

Second question, take your pseudo-snark to the draft challenge thread but of course I'm desperate to win it, two time winner, life affirming, $50 VISA card, top of the resume!

Post #: 1231

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 8:17:08 AM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 28604
Status: offline

But I would like them to maneuver up/down/sideways and pick two guards in the 30-45 range or even lower.

A year ago, Bradbury was the consensus pick at 17 here. Now people want Tucker at 14.

Love those T-Rexers.

Post #: 1232

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 8:27:35 AM

Brad H

Posts: 22986
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

In no way am I going to say that our offensive line is good, so I hope some don't take this that way.

In 2020 we were #5 in the league in rushing yardage and #4 in yards-per-carry, scoring 20 touchdowns.

A lot of the way our offensive linemen plays is a result of the offensive scheme. They seem to be very good at the zone blocking schemes and Dalvin Cook is very good at exploiting it. Short-yardage situations, not so good.

IMO, they seem to be fairly mobile, but very soft. That's what I saw.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 4/27/2021 8:28:38 AM >

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 1233

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 8:29:52 AM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

If Spielman was just a cunningly smart Machiavellian bastard ...

I could sit anxiously through the draft with some confidence in a larger scheme coming together.

As it is, Spiels has shown no urgency in planning or building a solid OLine.

He has bumped up his game to atleast one OL in the first three rds of the last four drafts BUT he has never drafted two OL in the first three rounds. Never.

Coming away with one of the following players is my expectation. Two would be a very pleasant surprise. Even the last two on the lists, Little and Banks.

Three? I'd be stunned. Kneeling with hands clasped in religious ecstasy. Cousins-like before games, meals and choosing shampoos.

Penei Sewell
Rashawn Slater
Christian Darisaw
Teven Jenkins
Sam Cosmi
Jalen Mayfield
Alex Leatherwood
Liam Eichenberg
Dillon Radunz
Spencer Brown
Walker Little

Alijah Vera-Tucker
Wyatt Davis
Creed Humphrey C/G
Landon Dickerson C/G
Jackson Carman
Trey Smith
Deonte Brown
Ben Cleveland
Kendrick Green
Aaron Banks

+1

Cleveland to LT and two from the guard list. Get a couple of guards like those Tampa Bay dudes who kept looking over at the KC defense in the SB and chuckled.

Cleveland / Vera-Tucker / Bradbury / Trey Smith / O'Neill

Are you predicting that because its a good or a bad thing?

Or because you are desperate to win the draft challenge and add it to your resume?

More or less a prediction based on what has to be done. With Spielman, who knows.

Second question, take your pseudo-snark to the draft challenge thread but of course I'm desperate to win it, two time winner, life affirming, $50 VISA card, top of the resume!

Second question: ok.

Post #: 1234

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 8:30:41 AM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

It happens every draft.

I'm furious with the ineptitude of the team.

Nothing but four #1 picks will satisfy my draft bloodlust.

Then the week of the draft and I start to quiver with anticipation.

By Monday after the draft I'm stoked for a championship season, like no other team was involved in the draft.

The NFL is worse than the tobacco industry.

Best post maybe ever from you Tom.

Thanks

Post #: 1235

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 8:30:56 AM

marty

Posts: 13049
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

While I agree with some of the points Sansevere was making, the Chiefs also could have helped out their OL by doing some of the things LaFleur did for the Pack, more motions and shifts, more short passes, more runs, etc ....

Otherwise, KC may get ousted in the playoffs on Mahomes throwing up a prayer, though there might be more time for him to throw it up, with the OL improvements.

_____________________________

SKOL to the BOWL !!!

Post #: 1236

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 8:45:58 AM

bohumm

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

It happens every draft.

I'm furious with the ineptitude of the team.

Nothing but four #1 picks will satisfy my draft bloodlust.

Then the week of the draft and I start to quiver with anticipation.

By Monday after the draft I'm stoked for a championship season, like no other team was involved in the draft.

The NFL is worse than the tobacco industry.

Best post maybe ever from you Tom.

Thanks

I'm the same in a certain way: no matter who they pick, he's now my guy and I see how it can work out. I'm still concerned about whatever caused me concerns, but I squint and see how Alexander/Underwood/Ponder/Hughes/Treadwell was a reasonable pick and how they can overcome whatever drove the doubts and deliver. Pathetic, yes, but it turns out that's how I "fan."

Post #: 1237

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 8:54:02 AM

Brad H

Posts: 22986
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

It happens every draft.

I'm furious with the ineptitude of the team.

Nothing but four #1 picks will satisfy my draft bloodlust.

Then the week of the draft and I start to quiver with anticipation.

By Monday after the draft I'm stoked for a championship season, like no other team was involved in the draft.

The NFL is worse than the tobacco industry.

Best post maybe ever from you Tom.

Thanks

I'm the same in a certain way: no matter who they pick, he's now my guy and I see how it can work out. I'm still concerned about whatever caused me concerns, but I squint and see how Alexander/Underwood/Ponder/Hughes/Treadwell was a reasonable pick and how they can overcome whatever drove the doubts and deliver. Pathetic, yes, but it turns out that's how I "fan."

I'd be a much better fan if they gave me something to cheer about.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 1238

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 8:55:54 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 45021
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

In no way am I going to say that our offensive line is good, so I hope some don't take this that way.

In 2020 we were #5 in the league in rushing yardage and #4 in yards-per-carry, scoring 20 touchdowns.

A lot of the way our offensive linemen plays is a result of the offensive scheme. They seem to be very good at the zone blocking schemes and Dalvin Cook is very good at exploiting it. Short-yardage situations, not so good.

IMO, they seem to be fairly mobile, but very soft. That's what I saw.

That's a fair assessment. Especially when it comes to guard play. A guy like Cleveland has the athletic ability to make an initial block in the run game and get down field to make the next block. It helps when you have a guy like Cook who can break tackles at the line and blast through the narrowest gap. In the passing game, Cleveland lacked the strength to engage, hold the block and hold the point of attack. You can say the same for Bradbury, Elflein, Dozier.... That's why the IOL gets pushed into Cousins' lap right off the snap.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1239

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 9:00:21 AM

Brad H

Posts: 22986
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

In no way am I going to say that our offensive line is good, so I hope some don't take this that way.

In 2020 we were #5 in the league in rushing yardage and #4 in yards-per-carry, scoring 20 touchdowns.

A lot of the way our offensive linemen plays is a result of the offensive scheme. They seem to be very good at the zone blocking schemes and Dalvin Cook is very good at exploiting it. Short-yardage situations, not so good.

IMO, they seem to be fairly mobile, but very soft. That's what I saw.

That's a fair assessment. Especially when it comes to guard play. A guy like Cleveland has the athletic ability to make an initial block in the run game and get down field to make the next block. It helps when you have a guy like Cook who can break tackles at the line and blast through the narrowest gap. In the passing game, Cleveland lacked the strength to engage, hold the block and hold the point of attack. You can say the same for Bradbury, Elflein, Dozier.... That's why the IOL gets pushed into Cousins' lap right off the snap.

Lets hope that the kid (Clint Kubiak) has a better understanding of football in the 21st century than his dad did. Gary was an old school guy still trying to run the same offense he did in Denver in 2004. The Vikings need to have the right personnel to play in 2021, not 2004.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 1240

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 9:20:19 AM

Tom Sykes

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

In no way am I going to say that our offensive line is good, so I hope some don't take this that way.

In 2020 we were #5 in the league in rushing yardage and #4 in yards-per-carry, scoring 20 touchdowns.

A lot of the way our offensive linemen plays is a result of the offensive scheme. They seem to be very good at the zone blocking schemes and Dalvin Cook is very good at exploiting it. Short-yardage situations, not so good.

IMO, they seem to be fairly mobile, but very soft. That's what I saw.

I agree. Is it not possible to find someone both athletic with some innate strength? Outside of the first 10 picks of the draft? Spielman needs to learn that some big slobbering beer-bellied OL have good feet and can waddle around zone schemes. Not just men in yoga pants.

Also, while O’Neill fit the Spielman template, he seems to have a bigger mean streak than the usual noble intangibles we focus on.

We need more girth and we need more filthy.

Post #: 1241

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 9:33:52 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 45021
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

In no way am I going to say that our offensive line is good, so I hope some don't take this that way.

In 2020 we were #5 in the league in rushing yardage and #4 in yards-per-carry, scoring 20 touchdowns.

A lot of the way our offensive linemen plays is a result of the offensive scheme. They seem to be very good at the zone blocking schemes and Dalvin Cook is very good at exploiting it. Short-yardage situations, not so good.

IMO, they seem to be fairly mobile, but very soft. That's what I saw.

I agree. Is it not possible to find someone both athletic with some innate strength? Outside of the first 10 picks of the draft? Spielman needs to learn that some big slobbering beer-bellied OL have good feet and can waddle around zone schemes. Not just men in yoga pants.

Also, while O’Neill fit the Spielman template, he seems to have a bigger mean streak than the usual noble intangibles we focus on.

We need more girth and we need more filthy.

If you can find Randal McDaniel, that is awesome as hell. I would also be more than satisfied with another Dave Dixon. Just big, strong and mean as hell.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1242

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 10:01:03 AM

bohumm

Posts: 5705
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Altadena, CA
Status: offline

The Vikings prioritize running over passing, so it makes sense in that regard. But it shouldn't have to be either/or, especially when you can scheme to overcome to a small extent, as Brad pointed out.

Post #: 1243

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 10:07:43 AM

Brad H

Posts: 22986
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

The Vikings prioritize running over passing, so it makes sense in that regard. But it shouldn't have to be either/or, especially when you can scheme to overcome to a small extent, as Brad pointed out.

It all depends on what era you want to live in. Gary Kubiak and Mike Zimmer live in an era that is long gone. Football has changed radically in the past 10-15 years. We've had coaches that are dinosaurs.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 1244

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 10:11:26 AM

TJSweens

Posts: 45021
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

The Vikings prioritize running over passing, so it makes sense in that regard. But it shouldn't have to be either/or, especially when you can scheme to overcome to a small extent, as Brad pointed out.

It all depends on what era you want to live in. Gary Kubiak and Mike Zimmer live in an era that is long gone. Football has changed radically in the past 10-15 years. We've had coaches that are dinosaurs.

Four yards and a cloud of dust was all the rage in the 1970's. The game has changed.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1245

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 11:28:07 AM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

In no way am I going to say that our offensive line is good, so I hope some don't take this that way.

In 2020 we were #5 in the league in rushing yardage and #4 in yards-per-carry, scoring 20 touchdowns.

A lot of the way our offensive linemen plays is a result of the offensive scheme. They seem to be very good at the zone blocking schemes and Dalvin Cook is very good at exploiting it. Short-yardage situations, not so good.

IMO, they seem to be fairly mobile, but very soft. That's what I saw.

I agree. Is it not possible to find someone both athletic with some innate strength? Outside of the first 10 picks of the draft? Spielman needs to learn that some big slobbering beer-bellied OL have good feet and can waddle around zone schemes. Not just men in yoga pants.

Also, while O’Neill fit the Spielman template, he seems to have a bigger mean streak than the usual noble intangibles we focus on.

We need more girth and we need more filthy.

You are describing Udoh!!

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.

Post #: 1246

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 11:37:26 AM

Murph

Posts: 2027
Joined: 4/20/2008
From: PNW
Status: offline

My Vikings top 20 YouTube Big Board 2021

1. Trevor Lawrence, QB
2. Zach Wilson, QB
3. Trey Lance, QB
4. Justin Fields, QB
5. Kyle Pitts, WR/TE
6. Penei Sewell, OT
7. Rashawn Slater, OT
8. Ja'Marr Chase, WR
9. Jaylen Waddle, WR
10. DeVonta Smith, WR
11. Christian Darrisaw, OT
12. Alijah Vera-Tucker, OG
13. Micah Parsons, LB
14. Jaelan Phillips, DE
15. Patrick Surtain II, CB
16. Jaycee Horn, CB
17. Gregory Rousseau, DE
18. Kwity Paye, DE
19. Caleb Farley, CB
20. Trevon Moehrig, S

< Message edited by Murph -- 4/27/2021 6:40:37 PM >

_____________________________

Hey Wilf's, let's build a "Perennial Super Bowl contender" not a "perennial playoff contender".

Post #: 1247

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 12:31:02 PM

Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

It happens every draft.

I'm furious with the ineptitude of the team.

Nothing but four #1 picks will satisfy my draft bloodlust.

Then the week of the draft and I start to quiver with anticipation.

By Monday after the draft I'm stoked for a championship season, like no other team was involved in the draft.

The NFL is worse than the tobacco industry.

Best post maybe ever from you Tom.

Thanks

I'm the same in a certain way: no matter who they pick, he's now my guy and I see how it can work out. I'm still concerned about whatever caused me concerns, but I squint and see how Alexander/Underwood/Ponder/Hughes/Treadwell was a reasonable pick and how they can overcome whatever drove the doubts and deliver. Pathetic, yes, but it turns out that's how I "fan."

Yep trying to convince people that guys like Raonall Smith were going to be diamonds in the rough is certainly a fault I will own over the years. Although my buddy Ian has me beat in the purple shaded glasses area I appreciate people who at least are willing to see how it plays out before completely castigating the front office for every move/ pick.

Tom said it perfect for most drafts that is exactly how my process goes.

But some drafts like the Tarvaris Jackson draft (2006) you simply can throw up in your mouth and get it over with.

Post #: 1248

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 12:39:55 PM

Pager

Posts: 10500
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline

Now that I think of it. I would have never thrust Ezra at RG after Samia didn't work out. I would have put Ezra in at LG and moved Dozier to the right side. Dozier has experience on the right side and would have equally sucked at either position.

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.

Post #: 1249

RE: NFL Draft 2021 - 4/27/2021 12:55:14 PM

TJSweens

Posts: 45021
Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

Now that I think of it. I would have never thrust Ezra at RG after Samia didn't work out. I would have put Ezra in at LG and moved Dozier to the right side. Dozier has experience on the right side and would have equally sucked at either position.

I never would have gone into a training camp with Dozier and Elflein as my starting guards in the first place.

_____________________________

"The eternal fate of the noble and enlightened: to be brutally crushed by the armed and dumb."

Post #: 1250