quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

Whatever. Cry all you want about the lack of a magical transformation, bitch all you want about how everything Kwesi is doing makes no sense, ignore the mandates from the Wilfs and the legacy of what their tenure has wrought thus far. Don't try to figure out what Kwesi et al are trying to do with what they have and where they are, but just wallow in things being the same because in two months of off-season they haven't delivered a title.

No one is saying everything is going to work out perfectly, but you and many others seem stuck in lamenting that things aren't exactly the way YOU want them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

We didn’t upgrade Slot Cb? We didn’t upgrade with Hicks over Barr? I see upgrades on the interior oline? Zed isn’t an Upgrade?

I see at least 4 positions are improved.

Not to mention Hunter coming back. The Vikings currently have no holes on the defense, assuming Lynch, Watts, Twyman, or someone can man the 3-4 DE position that is still open. That doesn't mean everyone is good or that improvements can't/won't be made, but there are no more gaping chasms like we have at center on offense. So the offense is basically the same with a better scheme/philosophy and hopefully better coaching, and the defense is improved or at least the same everywhere except maybe safety.

"Competitive rebuild" is driving many crazy, but it seems the Wilfs want to stay in the hunt for the playoffs, which a worse team accomplished last year. I think the contracts and teambuilding is pointing at an inflection point in 2024, when there should be sufficient cap room along with turnover of personnel the next two years to give a opportunity to make a big leap. Obviously a QBOTF is a huge part of it, but Kwesi has positioned the next two years to satisfy the Wilfs and the year after that to make moves to raise a quantum or two.

"... currently have no holes on the defense..." So that up front statement is followed by a bunch of things that make the statement true only in a technical sense. Basically, right now we can field a defense that is not an embarrassment to the NFL (like, we've met the minimum standards if they had some).

In the hunt for the playoffs is a pathetic term used by the networks that really means those laundry lists of teams that haven't been mathematically eliminated. And that's with almost half the league making the playoffs!

As for positioning to make a big leap in 2024, and sufficient cap room... that is a year Kwesi has used to park dead cap! If anything, he has created a (probable) substantial drag on the roster based on this dead cap. Yes there will be roster turnover that will open cap, ideally the bloated contracts will be gone, but also talent will need to be replaced.

And there are a few pieces to build on: Jefferson (who will break the bank), O'Neill and (hopefully) Darrisaw, and ideally a couple of or a few younger players or undiscovered talent. But ultimately we will need a heck of a lot more talent, and as you say, a QB. Problem is, that dead cap will show up right when we need cap room to essentially rebuild.

Sorry, but you don't get out of this mess w/o pain if you want to be truly competitive. The pain hasn't been felt yet.

The only way to limit or eliminate the pain is by having say a couple of consecutive drafts that absolutely knock it out of the park. Like historically. We dream that every year. But last I checked we still have the same scouts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

Whatever. Cry all you want about the lack of a magical transformation, bitch all you want about how everything Kwesi is doing makes no sense, ignore the mandates from the Wilfs and the legacy of what their tenure has wrought thus far. Don't try to figure out what Kwesi et al are trying to do with what they have and where they are, but just wallow in things being the same because in two months of off-season they haven't delivered a title.

No one is saying everything is going to work out perfectly, but you and many others seem stuck in lamenting that things aren't exactly the way YOU want them.

Why not refute what I said instead of saying what you did and go to extremes?

Why don't you address the future dead cap we will likely wish we had during your big rebuild?

Why don't you address what talent will likely be around in your 2024 year?

The "mandates" from the Wilfs. LOL!

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

We didn’t upgrade Slot Cb? We didn’t upgrade with Hicks over Barr? I see upgrades on the interior oline? Zed isn’t an Upgrade?

I see at least 4 positions are improved.

Not to mention Hunter coming back. The Vikings currently have no holes on the defense, assuming Lynch, Watts, Twyman, or someone can man the 3-4 DE position that is still open. That doesn't mean everyone is good or that improvements can't/won't be made, but there are no more gaping chasms like we have at center on offense. So the offense is basically the same with a better scheme/philosophy and hopefully better coaching, and the defense is improved or at least the same everywhere except maybe safety.

"Competitive rebuild" is driving many crazy, but it seems the Wilfs want to stay in the hunt for the playoffs, which a worse team accomplished last year. I think the contracts and teambuilding is pointing at an inflection point in 2024, when there should be sufficient cap room along with turnover of personnel the next two years to give a opportunity to make a big leap. Obviously a QBOTF is a huge part of it, but Kwesi has positioned the next two years to satisfy the Wilfs and the year after that to make moves to raise a quantum or two.

"... currently have no holes on the defense..." So that up front statement is followed by a bunch of things that make the statement true only in a technical sense. Basically, right now we can field a defense that is not an embarrassment to the NFL (like, we've met the minimum standards if they had some).

In the hunt for the playoffs is a pathetic term used by the networks that really means those laundry lists of teams that haven't been mathematically eliminated. And that's with almost half the league making the playoffs!

As for positioning to make a big leap in 2024, and sufficient cap room... that is a year Kwesi has used to park dead cap! If anything, he has created a (probable) substantial drag on the roster based on this dead cap. Yes there will be roster turnover that will open cap, ideally the bloated contracts will be gone, but also talent will need to be replaced.

And there are a few pieces to build on: Jefferson (who will break the bank), O'Neill and (hopefully) Darrisaw, and ideally a couple of or a few younger players or undiscovered talent. But ultimately we will need a heck of a lot more talent, and as you say, a QB. Problem is, that dead cap will show up right when we need cap room to essentially rebuild.

Sorry, but you don't get out of this mess w/o pain if you want to be truly competitive. The pain hasn't been felt yet.

The only way to limit or eliminate the pain is by having say a couple of consecutive drafts that absolutely knock it out of the park. Like historically. We dream that every year. But last I checked we still have the same scouts.

Moving cap hits downstream sucks, but he has to clear a log jam. 2022-23 and void years downstream loosen things up to allow flexibility for more significant moves. And yes, you and I are eye-to-eye on how I'm using those terms. No holes in my usage here means "now we can field a defense that is not an embarrassment to the NFL" as you state above, so we have some flexibility in how we approach the draft and teambuilding for these next two years. And "in the hunt" as I use it here is BS, but it's what the Wilfs seem to want, so Kwesi has to maintain that as a standard.

To me, the most important line from Kwesi's presser a couple of weeks ago was "everyone has a boss," not "competitive rebuild." The latter is necessitated by the former; my inclination would have been present pain to rebuild more quickly, but that can't happen if the bosses mandate being in the hunt. So, keep them in the hunt---check, done. The pain is spread out, which is sub-optimal, but it is what it is.

The top of the draft can be used to deliver future value at the most impactful positions (Edge, QB, WR, CB); I wouldn't do Edge or QB this year unless there's a gamechanging stud there because there's no playing time available at either the next couple of years. There should be a top-flight CB or WR available at 12, and both are areas that can be improved now and foundational for down the road.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

Whatever. Cry all you want about the lack of a magical transformation, bitch all you want about how everything Kwesi is doing makes no sense, ignore the mandates from the Wilfs and the legacy of what their tenure has wrought thus far. Don't try to figure out what Kwesi et al are trying to do with what they have and where they are, but just wallow in things being the same because in two months of off-season they haven't delivered a title.

No one is saying everything is going to work out perfectly, but you and many others seem stuck in lamenting that things aren't exactly the way YOU want them.

Why not refute what I said instead of saying what you did and go to extremes?

Why don't you address the future dead cap we will likely wish we had during your big rebuild?

Why don't you address what talent will likely be around in your 2024 year?

The "mandates" from the Wilfs. LOL!

Sorry, I was writing while you were posting. I addressed your post subsequently.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

a opportunity to make a big leap. Obviously a QBOTF is a huge part of it, but Kwesi has positioned the next two years to satisfy the Wilfs and the year after that to make moves to raise a quantum or two.

Just how has Kwesi done this bohumm? List the specifics that will apply for 2024/2025.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

We didn’t upgrade Slot Cb? We didn’t upgrade with Hicks over Barr? I see upgrades on the interior oline? Zed isn’t an Upgrade?

I see at least 4 positions are improved.

Not to mention Hunter coming back. The Vikings currently have no holes on the defense, assuming Lynch, Watts, Twyman, or someone can man the 3-4 DE position that is still open. That doesn't mean everyone is good or that improvements can't/won't be made, but there are no more gaping chasms like we have at center on offense. So the offense is basically the same with a better scheme/philosophy and hopefully better coaching, and the defense is improved or at least the same everywhere except maybe safety.

"Competitive rebuild" is driving many crazy, but it seems the Wilfs want to stay in the hunt for the playoffs, which a worse team accomplished last year. I think the contracts and teambuilding is pointing at an inflection point in 2024, when there should be sufficient cap room along with turnover of personnel the next two years to give a opportunity to make a big leap. Obviously a QBOTF is a huge part of it, but Kwesi has positioned the next two years to satisfy the Wilfs and the year after that to make moves to raise a quantum or two.

"... currently have no holes on the defense..." So that up front statement is followed by a bunch of things that make the statement true only in a technical sense. Basically, right now we can field a defense that is not an embarrassment to the NFL (like, we've met the minimum standards if they had some).

In the hunt for the playoffs is a pathetic term used by the networks that really means those laundry lists of teams that haven't been mathematically eliminated. And that's with almost half the league making the playoffs!

As for positioning to make a big leap in 2024, and sufficient cap room... that is a year Kwesi has used to park dead cap! If anything, he has created a (probable) substantial drag on the roster based on this dead cap. Yes there will be roster turnover that will open cap, ideally the bloated contracts will be gone, but also talent will need to be replaced.

And there are a few pieces to build on: Jefferson (who will break the bank), O'Neill and (hopefully) Darrisaw, and ideally a couple of or a few younger players or undiscovered talent. But ultimately we will need a heck of a lot more talent, and as you say, a QB. Problem is, that dead cap will show up right when we need cap room to essentially rebuild.

Sorry, but you don't get out of this mess w/o pain if you want to be truly competitive. The pain hasn't been felt yet.

The only way to limit or eliminate the pain is by having say a couple of consecutive drafts that absolutely knock it out of the park. Like historically. We dream that every year. But last I checked we still have the same scouts.

Moving cap hits downstream sucks, but he has to clear a log jam. 2022-23 and void years downstream loosen things up to allow flexibility for more significant moves. And yes, you and I are eye-to-eye on how I'm using those terms. No holes in my usage here means "now we can field a defense that is not an embarrassment to the NFL" as you state above, so we have some flexibility in how we approach the draft and teambuilding for these next two years. And "in the hunt" as I use it here is BS, but it's what the Wilfs seem to want, so Kwesi has to maintain that as a standard.

To me, the most important line from Kwesi's presser a couple of weeks ago was "everyone has a boss," not "competitive rebuild." The latter is necessitated by the former; my inclination would have been present pain to rebuild more quickly, but that can't happen if the bosses mandate being in the hunt. So, keep them in the hunt---check, done. The pain is spread out, which is sub-optimal, but it is what it is.

The top of the draft can be used to deliver future value at the most impactful positions (Edge, QB, WR, CB); I wouldn't do Edge or QB this year unless there's a gamechanging stud there because there's no playing time available at either the next couple of years. There should be a top-flight CB or WR available at 12, and both are areas that can be improved now and foundational for down the road.

Mostly agree.

Perhaps Kwesi's hands are tied WRT the Wilfs 'mandates'. But the Wilf's never seem to have to answer to anyone why their edicts fail half the time. They are lucky they don't have a face a press like in New York where they would be eaten alive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

a opportunity to make a big leap. Obviously a QBOTF is a huge part of it, but Kwesi has positioned the next two years to satisfy the Wilfs and the year after that to make moves to raise a quantum or two.

Just how has Kwesi done this bohumm? List the specifics that will apply for 2024/2025.

It's 2022. I'm trying to say this will happen in 2024, when there will be a lot more roster and cap flexibility. The QBOTF could happen this year, which I doubt, next year, which I hope, or TBD. It wasn't going to happen to the Wilfs' satisfaction these past two months, as has been reported in multiple places, so the approach Kwesi took is over a longer time horizon (a term that I know you love).

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

We didn’t upgrade Slot Cb? We didn’t upgrade with Hicks over Barr? I see upgrades on the interior oline? Zed isn’t an Upgrade?

I see at least 4 positions are improved.

Not to mention Hunter coming back. The Vikings currently have no holes on the defense, assuming Lynch, Watts, Twyman, or someone can man the 3-4 DE position that is still open. That doesn't mean everyone is good or that improvements can't/won't be made, but there are no more gaping chasms like we have at center on offense. So the offense is basically the same with a better scheme/philosophy and hopefully better coaching, and the defense is improved or at least the same everywhere except maybe safety.

"Competitive rebuild" is driving many crazy, but it seems the Wilfs want to stay in the hunt for the playoffs, which a worse team accomplished last year. I think the contracts and teambuilding is pointing at an inflection point in 2024, when there should be sufficient cap room along with turnover of personnel the next two years to give a opportunity to make a big leap. Obviously a QBOTF is a huge part of it, but Kwesi has positioned the next two years to satisfy the Wilfs and the year after that to make moves to raise a quantum or two.

"... currently have no holes on the defense..." So that up front statement is followed by a bunch of things that make the statement true only in a technical sense. Basically, right now we can field a defense that is not an embarrassment to the NFL (like, we've met the minimum standards if they had some).

In the hunt for the playoffs is a pathetic term used by the networks that really means those laundry lists of teams that haven't been mathematically eliminated. And that's with almost half the league making the playoffs!

As for positioning to make a big leap in 2024, and sufficient cap room... that is a year Kwesi has used to park dead cap! If anything, he has created a (probable) substantial drag on the roster based on this dead cap. Yes there will be roster turnover that will open cap, ideally the bloated contracts will be gone, but also talent will need to be replaced.

And there are a few pieces to build on: Jefferson (who will break the bank), O'Neill and (hopefully) Darrisaw, and ideally a couple of or a few younger players or undiscovered talent. But ultimately we will need a heck of a lot more talent, and as you say, a QB. Problem is, that dead cap will show up right when we need cap room to essentially rebuild.

Sorry, but you don't get out of this mess w/o pain if you want to be truly competitive. The pain hasn't been felt yet.

The only way to limit or eliminate the pain is by having say a couple of consecutive drafts that absolutely knock it out of the park. Like historically. We dream that every year. But last I checked we still have the same scouts.

Moving cap hits downstream sucks, but he has to clear a log jam. 2022-23 and void years downstream loosen things up to allow flexibility for more significant moves. And yes, you and I are eye-to-eye on how I'm using those terms. No holes in my usage here means "now we can field a defense that is not an embarrassment to the NFL" as you state above, so we have some flexibility in how we approach the draft and teambuilding for these next two years. And "in the hunt" as I use it here is BS, but it's what the Wilfs seem to want, so Kwesi has to maintain that as a standard.

To me, the most important line from Kwesi's presser a couple of weeks ago was "everyone has a boss," not "competitive rebuild." The latter is necessitated by the former; my inclination would have been present pain to rebuild more quickly, but that can't happen if the bosses mandate being in the hunt. So, keep them in the hunt---check, done. The pain is spread out, which is sub-optimal, but it is what it is.

The top of the draft can be used to deliver future value at the most impactful positions (Edge, QB, WR, CB); I wouldn't do Edge or QB this year unless there's a gamechanging stud there because there's no playing time available at either the next couple of years. There should be a top-flight CB or WR available at 12, and both are areas that can be improved now and foundational for down the road.

Mostly agree.

Perhaps Kwesi's hands are tied WRT the Wilfs 'mandates'. But the Wilf's never seem to have to answer to anyone why their edicts fail half the time. They are lucky they don't have a face a press like in New York where they would be eaten alive.

The best part of being the HMFIC, especially in a tame media market. Agree 100%.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fmaltes

The general impression of the media has been that the Vikings have good ownership, a good organization and that Mike Zimmer was a good head coach. This has been the case in the media even by folks known to be quickly negative such as Colin Cowherd and Skip Bayless. Honestly, it has also been my impression as well. I thought I would do a simple empirical test expecting it to support these impressions and I was surprised by the results.
For me as a fan, my expectation of a good team is that it make the playoffs. I don't consider going to the Super Bowl a fair test because there are so many factors that are beyond what a club can control to use that as a yearly test of success. I understand that not all will agree with my playoff criteria, but I think it represents what many fans consider a good season.

So, using this criteria, how does the Wilf's ownership period since 2005/2006 season stack up? During the 17 years of their ownership, the Vikings have reached the playoffs 35% (6/17) of the time. I actually was expecting a better record. That was an eye opener for me.

What about Mike Zimmer's tenure? Mike Zimmer made the play offs with the Vikings 37%(3/8) of the time. If you don't make it to a Super Bowl that seems unexceptional to me. Compare that record to previous Vikings Coaches that were clearly considered good coaches. Dennis Green got his teams to the playoffs 80% (8/10) of the time. Bud Grant got his teams to the playoffs 67% (12/18) and to super bowls as well. Jerry Burns, who I considered a good, not great coach got the Vikings to the playoffs 50% of the time. Stepping back, and ignoring the media narratives, Mike Zimmer really was not a good head coach.

So what about the new GM/Coach and the newest iteration of the Wilfs? I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt to this extent. The team went in a radically new direction in who they picked as GM and coach. However, the moves that they have made so far makes me think that they think that the Vikings are a playoff team. If the Vikings make the playoffs their evaluation will be proven correct.

For those wanting to "blow up" the team now, I could see an argument for blowing up the team in the next two years just because the timing would be better considering the assets available in the draft and also perhaps not wanting to start the "5 year" rebuild timeclock to start this year. which may not be in line with the talent currently on the team.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Mission statement: The Minnesota Vikings will make tough and smart decisions that gain additional draft picks, shed cap (not kick it down the road), and lead to acquiring a top tier QB.

Outside of that, extended mediocrity is the most likely outcome... regardless of a Wilf periodically surfacing and toothlessly barking about being 'competitive' every year.

So far in year one: fail, fail, fail.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

The other way out is having a roster with a decent number of good and proven backups waiting to start.

Who are our good and proven backups?
RB- Mattison.
QB - A disaster, and that's under Kwesi's watch.
WR - A hopeful based on a game or two.
IOL - Laughable.
OT - Basically nobody.

DL - Like IOL, trying to scrape together starters.
DT - Who knows.
LB - A bunch of bodies, hopefully a couple will work out.
CB - Please.
S - Scraping by on Bynum starting, the rest are a prayer.

We'll see with the new coaches and 3-4, but right now Mattison is IMO the only pretty good backup.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

What if we have it this year and the Packers just don't?

A 50 million dollar stinkball of a season for them and a strong seeding for us.

Nobody's going to talk about not being competitive if we're hosting a playoff game.

If the vibes are rolling and we have some luck this year it's gonna get so good again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Murph

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

What if we have it this year and the Packers just don't?

A 50 million dollar stinkball of a season for them and a strong seeding for us.

Nobody's going to talk about not being competitive if we're hosting a playoff game.

If the vibes are rolling and we have some luck this year it's gonna get so good again.

We'd still have to Face a few teams with better QB's and much better defenses. I don't think the Kirk led Vikings go on a 4 game post season win streak against the likes of: Tampa Bay, San Fran, LA Rams and then beat the Bills or Chiefs in the Super Bowl.

We should have traded Cousins and did an actual rebuild. We may be a one and done in the playoffs. I'd rather be a little worse without Kirk for a year with better draft position, get draft picks and cap space for next year.
Massive missed opportunity, franchise altering.
Who ever is responsible for the decisions to run back the band, bringing back all of our 30+ year old high priced players, shouldn't be allowed to make any more football decisions if this doesn't result in a Super Bowl in the next 2 years. Just beyond baffling after firing your GM. Why? It's still Spielman's roster.
Kwesi better be able to draft like a mofo for everyone's sake.