quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

The NFL today is all about thriving in the passing offense and stopping the other team's passing offense. The run matters too, but to a much lesser extent. So teambuilding is about how to accomplish those things. If you pick at 12, you have the chance to get a gamechanger in one of those realms. Getting an elite WR, CB, or Edge on a five-year contract is what the Vikings need to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

The NFL today is all about thriving in the passing offense and stopping the other team's passing offense. The run matters too, but to a much lesser extent. So teambuilding is about how to accomplish those things. If you pick at 12, you have the chance to get a gamechanger in one of those realms. Getting an elite WR, CB, or Edge on a five-year contract is what the Vikings need to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

Would anybody here be okay with trading #12 for #29 and #30(KC)?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

The NFL today is all about thriving in the passing offense and stopping the other team's passing offense. The run matters too, but to a much lesser extent. So teambuilding is about how to accomplish those things. If you pick at 12, you have the chance to get a gamechanger in one of those realms. Getting an elite WR, CB, or Edge on a five-year contract is what the Vikings need to do.

When does Cousins struggle? When the IOL get pushed back into him.

I think with Davis, Philips, Watts, Lynch and Tomlinson, we could play like Tampa's D. Vea and Suh push up the middle and draw at least one double team, and the edge guys(Hunter, Z, Wonnum) clean up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

But if that's how he was used in college, when they run more and pass less effectively, how much can he be used in the NFL? And I knew someone would come with the Moss thing; he wasn't off the field for two-thirds of the plays. Rest when you're on the sideline, and if you're supposed to be rotational anyway, ask to come out if you can't give effort. I would take him later, and I'd like to have him on my team, but picking a guy at 12 to play one-third of the snaps---and not the most critical snaps---seems dicey.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

The NFL today is all about thriving in the passing offense and stopping the other team's passing offense. The run matters too, but to a much lesser extent. So teambuilding is about how to accomplish those things. If you pick at 12, you have the chance to get a gamechanger in one of those realms. Getting an elite WR, CB, or Edge on a five-year contract is what the Vikings need to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

But if that's how he was used in college, when they run more and pass less effectively, how much can he be used in the NFL? And I knew someone would come with the Moss thing; he wasn't off the field for two-thirds of the plays. Rest when you're on the sideline, and if you're supposed to be rotational anyway, ask to come out if you can't give effort. I would take him later, and I'd like to have him on my team, but picking a guy at 12 to play one-third of the snaps---and not the most critical snaps---seems dicey.

It worked for Georgia!

I knew you'd take the Moss plays off ratio literally. Which BTW is three-quarters, not two-thirds.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

But if that's how he was used in college, when they run more and pass less effectively, how much can he be used in the NFL? And I knew someone would come with the Moss thing; he wasn't off the field for two-thirds of the plays. Rest when you're on the sideline, and if you're supposed to be rotational anyway, ask to come out if you can't give effort. I would take him later, and I'd like to have him on my team, but picking a guy at 12 to play one-third of the snaps---and not the most critical snaps---seems dicey.

It worked for Georgia!

I knew you'd take the Moss plays off ratio literally. Which BTW is three-quarters, not two-thirds.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

The NFL today is all about thriving in the passing offense and stopping the other team's passing offense. The run matters too, but to a much lesser extent. So teambuilding is about how to accomplish those things. If you pick at 12, you have the chance to get a gamechanger in one of those realms. Getting an elite WR, CB, or Edge on a five-year contract is what the Vikings need to do.

Earlier you were proclaiming BPA.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

But if that's how he was used in college, when they run more and pass less effectively, how much can he be used in the NFL? And I knew someone would come with the Moss thing; he wasn't off the field for two-thirds of the plays. Rest when you're on the sideline, and if you're supposed to be rotational anyway, ask to come out if you can't give effort. I would take him later, and I'd like to have him on my team, but picking a guy at 12 to play one-third of the snaps---and not the most critical snaps---seems dicey.

It worked for Georgia!

I knew you'd take the Moss plays off ratio literally. Which BTW is three-quarters, not two-thirds.

I was saying Davis was off the field for two-thirds of the plays, and then taking plays off beyond that when he's on the field. And Georgia was stacked, and not playing against NFL teams. In today's NFL, with Davis off the field in nickel, even if his approach to conditioning changes (a dangerous assumption), he's not impacting the pass defense to a degree that merits choosing him at 12. Mark's point about occupying blockers only applies on base downs, which KOC and Donnatel have both said will be the minority of snaps.

If they choose him, he's my guy. But it doesn't align with what would seem to be the best use of a resource like the 12th pick.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

But if that's how he was used in college, when they run more and pass less effectively, how much can he be used in the NFL? And I knew someone would come with the Moss thing; he wasn't off the field for two-thirds of the plays. Rest when you're on the sideline, and if you're supposed to be rotational anyway, ask to come out if you can't give effort. I would take him later, and I'd like to have him on my team, but picking a guy at 12 to play one-third of the snaps---and not the most critical snaps---seems dicey.

It worked for Georgia!

I knew you'd take the Moss plays off ratio literally. Which BTW is three-quarters, not two-thirds.

I was saying Davis was off the field for two-thirds of the plays, and then taking plays off beyond that when he's on the field. And Georgia was stacked, and not playing against NFL teams. In today's NFL, with Davis off the field in nickel, even if his approach to conditioning changes (a dangerous assumption), he's not impacting the pass defense to a degree that merits choosing him at 12. Mark's point about occupying blockers only applies on base downs, which KOC and Donnatel have both said will be the minority of snaps.

If they choose him, he's my guy. But it doesn't align with what would seem to be the best use of a resource like the 12th pick.

In today's NFL, the Vikings were bottom feeders against the run. And before that they were gashed up the middle in the playoffs by SF to the tune of 186 yards. The regime should have an options to fix that.

He's not my #1 choice, but Davis should do well in the 3-4.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

The NFL today is all about thriving in the passing offense and stopping the other team's passing offense. The run matters too, but to a much lesser extent. So teambuilding is about how to accomplish those things. If you pick at 12, you have the chance to get a gamechanger in one of those realms. Getting an elite WR, CB, or Edge on a five-year contract is what the Vikings need to do.

When does Cousins struggle? When the IOL get pushed back into him.

I think with Davis, Philips, Watts, Lynch and Tomlinson, we could play like Tampa's D. Vea and Suh push up the middle and draw at least one double team, and the edge guys(Hunter, Z, Wonnum) clean up.

Which of those 5 guys are D. Vea and Suh?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Murph

My Fantasy Vikings Big Board 2022

Pick 12 - 1st round

Not strickly a best player available but that is the most important factor in deciding the pick.

This pick is for the next 5-10 years in mind not to fill an immediate need. Slightly weighted up and tiebreakers for team need and premium postions.

1) Ahmad Gardner, CB
2) Derek Stingley Jr., CB
3) Aidan Hutchinson, EDGE
4) Kayvon Thibodeaux, EDGE
5) Jameson Williams, WR

If these 5 players are all gone at 12; I'd try and trade back and get picks for next years draft.

6) Garrett Wilson, WR
7) Chris Olave, WR
8) Travon Walker, EDGE
9) Jermaine Johnson II, EDGE
10) Drake London, WR
11) Devin Lloyd, LB
12) Jordan Davis, DT

I really hope that we can make a trade or two and come away with picks for next year's draft where we can make a run at a QB we like or have more picks in a better class.

Kind of where my thinking currently is.

I'm really excited for the draft and can't wait to see what Kwesi does!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

This team is very thin in the defensive secondary and their two best players are on the back side of career mountain. They gave up 426 points last season. Anything short of addressing secondary needs should be considered GM malpractice.

With no change in regime, I really believe the defense would have been worse in 2022 than 2021. It was that big a mess. IMO we should keep that in mind when evaluating our progress on defense this off season. Not only are we trying to improve on 2021 but we had to stop the bleeding first, stabilize the patient, AND THEN start fixing the problems.

For one off season and very little resources for improvement ...

We put our FA attention on the front 7. Smart.

We squarely focused on the pass rush (keeping Hunter, signing Smith). Smart. [that also helps the secondary]

We changed schemes which will highlight our three best defenders (Kendricks, Hunter, Smith). Smart.

We didn't do anything dumb on offense (like shooting our complete FA wad at Scherff or worse, trading for Deebo) or ST (we invested minimal) which gave us just enough to bring in some 2nd-3rd tier defenders.

Step one for rebuilding our defense ... CHECK. [it's relative, we are not significantly better but we are better and heading in the right direction IMO]

Next, we addressed the secondary:

Peterson, Breeland, Alexander, Woods, Smith -for- Peterson, Dantzler, Sullivan, Bynum, Smith.

Step two for rebuilding our defense ... QUESTION MARK. [again, as we stand now, with no resources to improve, we are at least not worse, maybe slightly better]

The draft will be Step Three.

I agree with you that if we don't put significant draft attention on the secondary, the GM will be making a mistake.

I disagree with some of this. Without cover guys, you could put the top talent in the league up front and it wouldn't make us a good defense. It is a different era. The quarterbacks aren't pocket passers any more. It's a two-step drop and the ball is gone. That or the QB takes off. If an offense that is running crisply, you could have the quickest guy off the line and it wouldn't make a difference. What is important in 2022 is to have athletic guys up front (for containment) and great cover guys.

One of the teams that spent more money than anyone in the past 8-10 years up front on defense was Houston. They had Watt, Wilfork and Clowney for about 3-4 years. Never won more than nine games with that combination. Why? They couldn't cover anybody. They were 7th, 8th and 11th in points against (in a division with Tennessee, Indy and JVille, none of which were any good). Not bad, but not what they thought they were getting when they spent a billion dollars on guys up front.

At the end of the day, you cannot win consistently with poor talent on the back end. That may have flown in 1975 or 1988, but not in 2022.

In 2021, Tampa Bay threw the ball 43.3 times-per-game. There were 14 teams that threw it more than 35 times-per-game (and that was a down year for passing). In 2008 the Saints threw it a league-high 39.8 times-per-game and there were six teams that threw it at least 35 times-per-game. It's a different game than it was 15 years ago.

With running quarterbacks being a thing, passing numbers have started to trend downwards. In 2016, three teams averaged over 40 passes-per-game and 21 teams averaged more than 35. That's why I say, you need athletes up front and guys that can cover on the back end.

At the end of the day, you have to be good everywhere on defense to be a great defense. I'm not asking for that. I just want to be competent at this point.

I really liked Peterson and Smith.............FIVE YEARS AGO!

At the end of the end of the day you have to be good on all levels of the defense to be good. Nobody disputes that.

CBs are critical. We’re hurting right now in that dept. (I am not sure how good Sullivan and Bynum will be … who we will draft, etc.). But … it doesnt matter how good your corners are if the QB has all day to throw or if the run game is effective .

Former passing game coordinator O’Connell has emphasized the front seven (so far) in FA … are you saying he’s an old zchool coach for not beefing up the secondary first? You think cutting edge Kwesi processes analytics similar to Zimmer-ball?

No. With only spare change in their pocket, I think they are trying to be efficient and thrifty, and approaching the D the right way.

We need competent CBs. No doubt.

DLine needs to be elite though. An elite DLine makes average corners above average. Giants upset undefeated Pats with an elite Dline. 85 Bears elite DLine, competent CBs who had to cover for 2 or 3 seconds.

Like Brad said, we have more running QBs now. All the more reason to have elite agile Edge Rushers who can catch them. Plus, you need monster DTs who take up 2 blockers so LBs have a free run.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

The WR talk in here has gotten downright lusty. Its like everybody all of a sudden walked into talkvikes wearing wr beer goggles.

If you step back, on paper, 5 out of 5 secondary players are question marks or past their prime, two out of three IOL are flat out sub-par, our DTs last year vastly underperformed … I confess I’m not even sure who our DEs are (Phillips?, Watts? Wonnum is OLB?) … TE is a question mark (I like Smith but he’s a question mark) … DT and TE are under-valued and underrated because they do so much dirty work … we are thin everywhere except RB but OT is dangeeously thin.

As far as what we have under contract for 2022-2023 - WR, RB, Edge/OLB, ILB are the only positions ready for battle. We have no idea how things will get reconfigured by this Sept. much less next year so saying WR is critical for whatever future reasons … its just horniness.

Best player availabe … for players rated the same, secondary then iol then dt then de then ot then maybe te (nobody with 1-2 rd ranking).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Murph

My Fantasy Vikings Big Board 2022

Pick 12 - 1st round

Not strickly a best player available but that is the most important factor in deciding the pick.

This pick is for the next 5-10 years in mind not to fill an immediate need. Slightly weighted up and tiebreakers for team need and premium postions.

1) Ahmad Gardner, CB
2) Derek Stingley Jr., CB
3) Aidan Hutchinson, EDGE
4) Kayvon Thibodeaux, EDGE
5) Jameson Williams, WR

If these 5 players are all gone at 12; I'd try and trade back and get picks for next years draft.

6) Garrett Wilson, WR
7) Chris Olave, WR
8) Travon Walker, EDGE
9) Jermaine Johnson II, EDGE
10) Drake London, WR
11) Devin Lloyd, LB
12) Jordan Davis, DT

I really hope that we can make a trade or two and come away with picks for next year's draft where we can make a run at a QB we like or have more picks in a better class.

Kind of where my thinking currently is.

I'm really excited for the draft and can't wait to see what Kwesi does!

Good sane approach. I could bicker over specific players but my own preferences change every 5 minutes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: bohumm

But if that's how he was used in college, when they run more and pass less effectively, how much can he be used in the NFL? And I knew someone would come with the Moss thing; he wasn't off the field for two-thirds of the plays. Rest when you're on the sideline, and if you're supposed to be rotational anyway, ask to come out if you can't give effort. I would take him later, and I'd like to have him on my team, but picking a guy at 12 to play one-third of the snaps---and not the most critical snaps---seems dicey.

It worked for Georgia!

I knew you'd take the Moss plays off ratio literally. Which BTW is three-quarters, not two-thirds.

I was saying Davis was off the field for two-thirds of the plays, and then taking plays off beyond that when he's on the field. And Georgia was stacked, and not playing against NFL teams. In today's NFL, with Davis off the field in nickel, even if his approach to conditioning changes (a dangerous assumption), he's not impacting the pass defense to a degree that merits choosing him at 12. Mark's point about occupying blockers only applies on base downs, which KOC and Donnatel have both said will be the minority of snaps.

If they choose him, he's my guy. But it doesn't align with what would seem to be the best use of a resource like the 12th pick.

In today's NFL, the Vikings were bottom feeders against the run. And before that they were gashed up the middle in the playoffs by SF to the tune of 186 yards. The regime should have an options to fix that.

He's not my #1 choice, but Davis should do well in the 3-4.

I also think he'll do well in the 3-4, but that will be the alignment on the minority of snaps, seemingly considerably so. That's why I would be reluctant to take him at 12. I'd be very interested to know how Donatell views the role/importance of the nose tackle in his scheme, and what his prototype is. I'm also curious about what a 3-4 DE should look/play like.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

This team is very thin in the defensive secondary and their two best players are on the back side of career mountain. They gave up 426 points last season. Anything short of addressing secondary needs should be considered GM malpractice.

With no change in regime, I really believe the defense would have been worse in 2022 than 2021. It was that big a mess. IMO we should keep that in mind when evaluating our progress on defense this off season. Not only are we trying to improve on 2021 but we had to stop the bleeding first, stabilize the patient, AND THEN start fixing the problems.

For one off season and very little resources for improvement ...

We put our FA attention on the front 7. Smart.

We squarely focused on the pass rush (keeping Hunter, signing Smith). Smart. [that also helps the secondary]

We changed schemes which will highlight our three best defenders (Kendricks, Hunter, Smith). Smart.

We didn't do anything dumb on offense (like shooting our complete FA wad at Scherff or worse, trading for Deebo) or ST (we invested minimal) which gave us just enough to bring in some 2nd-3rd tier defenders.

Step one for rebuilding our defense ... CHECK. [it's relative, we are not significantly better but we are better and heading in the right direction IMO]

Next, we addressed the secondary:

Peterson, Breeland, Alexander, Woods, Smith -for- Peterson, Dantzler, Sullivan, Bynum, Smith.

Step two for rebuilding our defense ... QUESTION MARK. [again, as we stand now, with no resources to improve, we are at least not worse, maybe slightly better]

The draft will be Step Three.

I agree with you that if we don't put significant draft attention on the secondary, the GM will be making a mistake.

I disagree with some of this. Without cover guys, you could put the top talent in the league up front and it wouldn't make us a good defense. It is a different era. The quarterbacks aren't pocket passers any more. It's a two-step drop and the ball is gone. That or the QB takes off. If an offense that is running crisply, you could have the quickest guy off the line and it wouldn't make a difference. What is important in 2022 is to have athletic guys up front (for containment) and great cover guys.

One of the teams that spent more money than anyone in the past 8-10 years up front on defense was Houston. They had Watt, Wilfork and Clowney for about 3-4 years. Never won more than nine games with that combination. Why? They couldn't cover anybody. They were 7th, 8th and 11th in points against (in a division with Tennessee, Indy and JVille, none of which were any good). Not bad, but not what they thought they were getting when they spent a billion dollars on guys up front.

At the end of the day, you cannot win consistently with poor talent on the back end. That may have flown in 1975 or 1988, but not in 2022.

In 2021, Tampa Bay threw the ball 43.3 times-per-game. There were 14 teams that threw it more than 35 times-per-game (and that was a down year for passing). In 2008 the Saints threw it a league-high 39.8 times-per-game and there were six teams that threw it at least 35 times-per-game. It's a different game than it was 15 years ago.

With running quarterbacks being a thing, passing numbers have started to trend downwards. In 2016, three teams averaged over 40 passes-per-game and 21 teams averaged more than 35. That's why I say, you need athletes up front and guys that can cover on the back end.

At the end of the day, you have to be good everywhere on defense to be a great defense. I'm not asking for that. I just want to be competent at this point.

I really liked Peterson and Smith.............FIVE YEARS AGO!

At the end of the end of the day you have to be good on all levels of the defense to be good. Nobody disputes that.

CBs are critical. We’re hurting right now in that dept. (I am not sure how good Sullivan and Bynum will be … who we will draft, etc.). But … it doesnt matter how good your corners are if the QB has all day to throw or if the run game is effective .

Former passing game coordinator O’Connell has emphasized the front seven (so far) in FA … are you saying he’s an old zchool coach for not beefing up the secondary first? You think cutting edge Kwesi processes analytics similar to Zimmer-ball?

No. With only spare change in their pocket, I think they are trying to be efficient and thrifty, and approaching the D the right way.

We need competent CBs. No doubt.

DLine needs to be elite though. An elite DLine makes average corners above average. Giants upset undefeated Pats with an elite Dline. 85 Bears elite DLine, competent CBs who had to cover for 2 or 3 seconds.

Like Brad said, we have more running QBs now. All the more reason to have elite agile Edge Rushers who can catch them. Plus, you need monster DTs who take up 2 blockers so LBs have a free run.

Again, I wish you were right, but you aren't. An elite defensive lineman makes 15-22 sacks a year. An elite corner shuts down an elite wide receiver 35 times a game. You gotta have guys that can cover or your defense is doomed from the outset.