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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:31:35 PM

beo

Posts: 2451
Joined: 3/18/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JC2022

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Drafting Kyler Murray may have a lot to do with it...I think he wanted out.

Anyone still on the Tua (3-5 concussions), Kyler (knee), Lamar (knee), Lance (Broken Ankle), etc. train?
That is why I would be out on Fields also...they have to be a passer first, runner second.

Even Hurts is a concern

The mobile QBs need to use the THREAT of running more than they actually run.

No matter how big you are, a QB running constantly gets broken up. Daunte and Cam were huge - both were done early

The amount of designed runs for these franchise guys blows my mind... it's like they are trying to get Allen/Hurts/Lamar hurt at times.

Post #: 4751

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:32:29 PM

JC2022

Posts: 169
Joined: 9/20/2022
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lars

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

People around here are forgetting that a tight end has to do more than catch passes. Hockenson is not a great blocking tight end, which is why the Lions may have given up on him. For what it's worth, they were better without him.

He's not a generational anything. That's just silly talk.

I wouldn't say Jefferson is either. He can't seem to find the endzone much. Not a good trait for a generational player. Absolutely a great player and one of the best right now. Generational is an exaggeration.

I'd take Tyreek Hill seven days a week over Justin Jefferson. Hill is generational. Antonio Brown was generational....until he lost his mind.

Jefferson is really good.

I disagree on Hill. Look and KC before and after.

I think JJ is great. Maybe not "generational", but if he was a FA and we snagged him I would be elated!

KC became a ball control offense mostly without Hill

They don't have close to the level of explosiveness they had with Hill

The Chiefs played 3 top teams

They lost 2 of the 3 games

< Message edited by JC2022 -- 1/16/2023 12:34:51 PM >

Post #: 4752

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:33:03 PM

Arlowe84

Posts: 353
Joined: 9/30/2019
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

People around here are forgetting that a tight end has to do more than catch passes. Hockenson is not a great blocking tight end, which is why the Lions may have given up on him. For what it's worth, they were better without him.

He's not a generational anything. That's just silly talk. He's a good receiver. Lets leave it at that.

Hock had 10 catches for 129 yesterday and is probably the reason we were still in that game in the 2nd half.

Offenses win these days with the passing game.
We have a stud in JJ.
Hock I'd say is just below the elite TE in the league (Kelce/Kittle).

Irv is a disaster.
Thielen is done imo (not a bad career for a sunglass salesman though ... huh)
KJ is just a guy.
Nailor might contribute but hard to say.

JJ/Hock are the primary parts to making this offense run... but they need 1 more guy.

It seems like the coaching staff think Dalvin Cook is Marshall Faulk the way they run screens for him LOL
He's had a great career for the Vikings, but he's just not the guy anymore.
I like this Chandler kid a lot and think he will be better than what we saw this year.

Post #: 4753

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:34:03 PM

Brad H

Posts: 24060
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

People around here are forgetting that a tight end has to do more than catch passes. Hockenson is not a great blocking tight end, which is why the Lions may have given up on him. For what it's worth, they were better without him.

He's not a generational anything. That's just silly talk. He's a good receiver. Lets leave it at that.

Hock had 10 catches for 129 yesterday and is probably the reason we were still in that game in the 2nd half.

Offenses win these days with the passing game.
We have a stud in JJ.
Hock I'd say is just below the elite TE in the league (Kelce/Kittle).

Irv is a disaster.
Thielen is done imo (not a bad career for a sunglass salesman though ... huh)
KJ is just a guy.
Nailor might contribute but hard to say.

JJ/Hock are the primary parts to making this offense run... but they need 1 more guy.

It depends on your metric. He'll be a great pick in fantasy football next season. He won't help you win a game by running the ball when it matters in a real game.

I agree you have to be able to pass the football. But you also need to be able to pick up a first down and control the clock when it matters. The Vikings are a pass-happy team. The Niners are a legitimate threat. Both teams have tight ends that can put up pretty numbers. One team has a tight end that can play in the mud.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 4754

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:35:27 PM

Brad H

Posts: 24060
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JC2022

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lars

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

People around here are forgetting that a tight end has to do more than catch passes. Hockenson is not a great blocking tight end, which is why the Lions may have given up on him. For what it's worth, they were better without him.

He's not a generational anything. That's just silly talk.

I wouldn't say Jefferson is either. He can't seem to find the endzone much. Not a good trait for a generational player. Absolutely a great player and one of the best right now. Generational is an exaggeration.

I'd take Tyreek Hill seven days a week over Justin Jefferson. Hill is generational. Antonio Brown was generational....until he lost his mind.

Jefferson is really good.

I disagree on Hill. Look and KC before and after.

I think JJ is great. Maybe not "generational", but if he was a FA and we snagged him I would be elated!

KC became a ball control offense mostly without Hill

They don't have close to the level of explosiveness they had with Hill

The Chiefs played 3 top teams

They lost 2 of the 3 games

And their defense is awful. The Bills are going to win the AFC.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 4755

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:35:48 PM

Bill Johanesen

Posts: 30276
Status: offline

Deion Sanders, generational.

I would argue Randy Moss was generational. The 1999 Packers draft suggests they thought so:

Round Sel# Player Pos. College

1 25 Antuan Edwards FS Clemson
2 47 Fred Vinson CB Vanderbilt
3 87 Mike McKenzie CB Memphis

Post #: 4756

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:36:08 PM

Lars

Posts: 11428
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Midi-chlorians
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JC2022

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lars

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

People around here are forgetting that a tight end has to do more than catch passes. Hockenson is not a great blocking tight end, which is why the Lions may have given up on him. For what it's worth, they were better without him.

He's not a generational anything. That's just silly talk.

I wouldn't say Jefferson is either. He can't seem to find the endzone much. Not a good trait for a generational player. Absolutely a great player and one of the best right now. Generational is an exaggeration.

I'd take Tyreek Hill seven days a week over Justin Jefferson. Hill is generational. Antonio Brown was generational....until he lost his mind.

Jefferson is really good.

I disagree on Hill. Look and KC before and after.

I think JJ is great. Maybe not "generational", but if he was a FA and we snagged him I would be elated!

KC became a ball control offense mostly without Hill

They don't have close to the level of explosiveness they had with Hill

Mahomes threw for 400 more yards this year on the same number of completions and attempts. He threw for 4 more TD and 1 less INT....

_____________________________

<this space for rent>

Post #: 4757

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:37:18 PM

Arlowe84

Posts: 353
Joined: 9/30/2019
Status: offline

Regarding Jefferson, I think also teams didn't really respect our running game much as the season waned.

I don't think Cook scared anyone anymore, keep that safety back helps a lot in coverage.

I'm excited to see what Chandler brings. He's a sum 4.4 guy who has some nice power to his game.

Post #: 4758

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:40:39 PM

JC2022

Posts: 169
Joined: 9/20/2022
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lars

Mahomes threw for 400 more yards this year on the same number of completions and attempts. He threw for 4 more TD and 1 less INT....

Look at his game logs

He piled on yards against bad teams but was just "good" against the top teams

Against the Bengals
16 of 27, 223 yards, 1 TD, 0INTs

Against the Bills
25 of 40, 338, 2TDs, 2INTs

Post #: 4759

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:40:57 PM

Arlowe84

Posts: 353
Joined: 9/30/2019
Status: offline

Know he had an obvious hold that was missed, but Darrisaw pretty much shut down Thibideaux yesterday.
Was really worried about him, but barely heard his name all day.

Post #: 4760

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:41:00 PM 1 votes

Brad H

Posts: 24060
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Deion Sanders, generational.

I would argue Randy Moss was generational. The 1999 Packers draft suggests they thought so:

Round Sel# Player Pos. College

1 25 Antuan Edwards FS Clemson
2 47 Fred Vinson CB Vanderbilt
3 87 Mike McKenzie CB Memphis

I would argue that Randy Moss was not generational. He had sensational receiving numbers, but there was a lot of missing parts to his game. He wasn't a great blocker. He took plays off. Didn't really care for contact. There's a reason he never won a ring.

Conversely, Hines Ward did everything. He finished with two rings. And yet, most still wouldn't consider him generational. Ward wasn't flashy, but the guy was a phenomenal football player. He wouldn't trade his career for Moss', guaranteed.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 1/16/2023 12:45:12 PM >

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 4761

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:42:28 PM

Lars

Posts: 11428
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: Midi-chlorians
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JC2022

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lars

Mahomes threw for 400 more yards this year on the same number of completions and attempts. He threw for 4 more TD and 1 less INT....

Look at his game logs

He piled on yards against bad teams but was just "good" against the top teams

Against the Bengals
16 of 27, 223 yards, 1 TD, 0INTs

Against the Bills
25 of 40, 338, 2TDs, 2INTs

He has ALWAYS piled on the yards against bad teams

_____________________________

<this space for rent>

Post #: 4762

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:44:28 PM

beo

Posts: 2451
Joined: 3/18/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

People around here are forgetting that a tight end has to do more than catch passes. Hockenson is not a great blocking tight end, which is why the Lions may have given up on him. For what it's worth, they were better without him.

He's not a generational anything. That's just silly talk. He's a good receiver. Lets leave it at that.

Hock had 10 catches for 129 yesterday and is probably the reason we were still in that game in the 2nd half.

Offenses win these days with the passing game.
We have a stud in JJ.
Hock I'd say is just below the elite TE in the league (Kelce/Kittle).

Irv is a disaster.
Thielen is done imo (not a bad career for a sunglass salesman though ... huh)
KJ is just a guy.
Nailor might contribute but hard to say.

JJ/Hock are the primary parts to making this offense run... but they need 1 more guy.

It depends on your metric. He'll be a great pick in fantasy football next season. He won't help you win a game by running the ball when it matters in a real game.

I agree you have to be able to pass the football. But you also need to be able to pick up a first down and control the clock when it matters. The Vikings are a pass-happy team. The Niners are a legitimate threat. Both teams have tight ends that can put up pretty numbers. One team has a tight end that can play in the mud.

Rams ran for 43 yards in their superbowl win last year... it's a passing league.
Hock may not be Gronk in run blocking... he's passable (pun intended).

You pining for the Kleinsasser days?

Post #: 4763

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:45:58 PM

Arlowe84

Posts: 353
Joined: 9/30/2019
Status: offline

Jefferson, not "generational", but a better version of Keenan Allen. No reason why he can't set a lot of records, help the team win a lot of games and be in HOF if he stays healthy and the Vikings surround him with good talent.
He doesn't have game breaking speed, so will always limit his upside somewhat on long throws.

Post #: 4764

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:47:47 PM

Brad H

Posts: 24060
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

People around here are forgetting that a tight end has to do more than catch passes. Hockenson is not a great blocking tight end, which is why the Lions may have given up on him. For what it's worth, they were better without him.

He's not a generational anything. That's just silly talk. He's a good receiver. Lets leave it at that.

Hock had 10 catches for 129 yesterday and is probably the reason we were still in that game in the 2nd half.

Offenses win these days with the passing game.
We have a stud in JJ.
Hock I'd say is just below the elite TE in the league (Kelce/Kittle).

Irv is a disaster.
Thielen is done imo (not a bad career for a sunglass salesman though ... huh)
KJ is just a guy.
Nailor might contribute but hard to say.

JJ/Hock are the primary parts to making this offense run... but they need 1 more guy.

It depends on your metric. He'll be a great pick in fantasy football next season. He won't help you win a game by running the ball when it matters in a real game.

I agree you have to be able to pass the football. But you also need to be able to pick up a first down and control the clock when it matters. The Vikings are a pass-happy team. The Niners are a legitimate threat. Both teams have tight ends that can put up pretty numbers. One team has a tight end that can play in the mud.

Rams ran for 43 yards in their superbowl win last year... it's a passing league.
Hock may not be Gronk in run blocking... he's passable (pun intended).

You pining for the Kleinsasser days?

I'm only saying that someone claiming Hockenson to be generational is silly.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 4765

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:48:18 PM

beo

Posts: 2451
Joined: 3/18/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

People around here are forgetting that a tight end has to do more than catch passes. Hockenson is not a great blocking tight end, which is why the Lions may have given up on him. For what it's worth, they were better without him.

He's not a generational anything. That's just silly talk. He's a good receiver. Lets leave it at that.

Hock had 10 catches for 129 yesterday and is probably the reason we were still in that game in the 2nd half.

Offenses win these days with the passing game.
We have a stud in JJ.
Hock I'd say is just below the elite TE in the league (Kelce/Kittle).

Irv is a disaster.
Thielen is done imo (not a bad career for a sunglass salesman though ... huh)
KJ is just a guy.
Nailor might contribute but hard to say.

JJ/Hock are the primary parts to making this offense run... but they need 1 more guy.

It depends on your metric. He'll be a great pick in fantasy football next season. He won't help you win a game by running the ball when it matters in a real game.

I agree you have to be able to pass the football. But you also need to be able to pick up a first down and control the clock when it matters. The Vikings are a pass-happy team. The Niners are a legitimate threat. Both teams have tight ends that can put up pretty numbers. One team has a tight end that can play in the mud.

Rams ran for 43 yards in their superbowl win last year... it's a passing league.
Hock may not be Gronk in run blocking... he's passable (pun intended).

You pining for the Kleinsasser days?

I'm only saying that someone claiming Hockenson to be generational is silly.

Totally agree on that...

Post #: 4766

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:48:43 PM

Brad H

Posts: 24060
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arlowe84

Jefferson, not "generational", but a better version of Keenan Allen. No reason why he can't set a lot of records, help the team win a lot of games and be in HOF if he stays healthy and the Vikings surround him with good talent.
He doesn't have game breaking speed, so will always limit his upside somewhat on long throws.

That's fair. But he'll have to do it for quite a few more years to get to Keenan Allen.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 4767

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:49:30 PM

Richard Neussendorfer

Posts: 20358
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Alamogordo, NM
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Deion Sanders, generational.

I would argue Randy Moss was generational. The 1999 Packers draft suggests they thought so:

Round Sel# Player Pos. College

1 25 Antuan Edwards FS Clemson
2 47 Fred Vinson CB Vanderbilt
3 87 Mike McKenzie CB Memphis

Exactly. When the 32 GMs would probably currently pick 4 different wideiuts when given the choice there's probably not any generational talent at the position.

Post #: 4768

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:51:17 PM

bstinger

Posts: 16530
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

People around here are forgetting that a tight end has to do more than catch passes. Hockenson is not a great blocking tight end, which is why the Lions may have given up on him. For what it's worth, they were better without him.

He's not a generational anything. That's just silly talk. He's a good receiver. Lets leave it at that.

Hock had 10 catches for 129 yesterday and is probably the reason we were still in that game in the 2nd half.

Offenses win these days with the passing game.
We have a stud in JJ.
Hock I'd say is just below the elite TE in the league (Kelce/Kittle).

Irv is a disaster.
Thielen is done imo (not a bad career for a sunglass salesman though ... huh)
KJ is just a guy.
Nailor might contribute but hard to say.

JJ/Hock are the primary parts to making this offense run... but they need 1 more guy.

And a new RB, one more effective in the pass game than Dalvin.

_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan

Post #: 4769

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:53:34 PM

Brad H

Posts: 24060
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

People around here are forgetting that a tight end has to do more than catch passes. Hockenson is not a great blocking tight end, which is why the Lions may have given up on him. For what it's worth, they were better without him.

He's not a generational anything. That's just silly talk. He's a good receiver. Lets leave it at that.

Hock had 10 catches for 129 yesterday and is probably the reason we were still in that game in the 2nd half.

Offenses win these days with the passing game.
We have a stud in JJ.
Hock I'd say is just below the elite TE in the league (Kelce/Kittle).

Irv is a disaster.
Thielen is done imo (not a bad career for a sunglass salesman though ... huh)
KJ is just a guy.
Nailor might contribute but hard to say.

JJ/Hock are the primary parts to making this offense run... but they need 1 more guy.

And a new RB, one more effective in the pass game than Dalvin.

You guys all thought Dalvin Cook was an elite back two years ago. I kept telling you, running backs not named Derrick Henry are a dime-a-dozen.

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 4770

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:54:49 PM

Richard Neussendorfer

Posts: 20358
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Alamogordo, NM
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

People around here are forgetting that a tight end has to do more than catch passes. Hockenson is not a great blocking tight end, which is why the Lions may have given up on him. For what it's worth, they were better without him.

He's not a generational anything. That's just silly talk. He's a good receiver. Lets leave it at that.

Hock had 10 catches for 129 yesterday and is probably the reason we were still in that game in the 2nd half.

Offenses win these days with the passing game.
We have a stud in JJ.
Hock I'd say is just below the elite TE in the league (Kelce/Kittle).

Irv is a disaster.
Thielen is done imo (not a bad career for a sunglass salesman though ... huh)
KJ is just a guy.
Nailor might contribute but hard to say.

JJ/Hock are the primary parts to making this offense run... but they need 1 more guy.

And a new RB, one more effective in the pass game than Dalvin.

You guys all thought Dalvin Cook was an elite back two years ago. I kept telling you, running backs not named Derrick Henry are a dime-a-dozen.

I've been firmly in the never pay a back huge money camp for a long time. Probably since after Emmitt and Faulk.

Post #: 4771

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 12:57:03 PM

bstinger

Posts: 16530
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: offline

I was not on board with signing him to big money. He was talented, but hurt too much. Now he's overpaid and old, for a RB.

_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan

Post #: 4772

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 1:01:12 PM

Brad H

Posts: 24060
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

I know I've asked this question before, but it's been a few years.

Can anyone tell me the last time the guy that led the NFL in rushing won a Super Bowl?

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 4773

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 1:03:14 PM

Richard Neussendorfer

Posts: 20358
Joined: 12/7/2007
From: Alamogordo, NM
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

I know I've asked this question before, but it's been a few years.

Can anyone tell me the last time the guy that led the NFL in rushing won a Super Bowl?

Terrell Davis on 98?

Post #: 4774

RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/16/2023 1:04:34 PM

Brad H

Posts: 24060
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: Parts Unknown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad H

I know I've asked this question before, but it's been a few years.

Can anyone tell me the last time the guy that led the NFL in rushing won a Super Bowl?

Terrell Davis on 98?

Exactly. Running backs are a dime-a-dozen. High-profile backs eat up valuable resources. Most people couldn't tell me who the top back was for the Patriots on any given year. But most of them have multiple rings.

< Message edited by Brad H -- 1/16/2023 1:06:46 PM >

_____________________________

Defense starts at the corners!

Post #: 4775