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RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/8/2023 5:23:58 PM   
Bill Johanesen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Same age as Dalvin; Zeke Elliot and Kareem Hunt.

Both available.


Mattison will be our starting RB.


True; Neither are starters any more---pay as a backup a little over minimum. Mattison and Ty have injury history.

Zeke had 12 Red Zone TDs last year and was very good in short yardage---just another way to show other teams choose to release a soon to be 28 year old.


Yes, and easier for Dallas to release high $ Zeke what with Pollard. Here is what he did to us (although that doesn't mean much):
Rush: 15-80, 5.3.
Rec: 6-109, 18.2, 2
Post #: 426
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/8/2023 11:18:27 PM   
marty


Posts: 13047
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline 		Trading Hunter, is probably the smart thing to do, if they can get a 1st rounder for him

But losing Cook and Hunter feels like all hope is lost of some sort of magical Super Bowl run this coming season, where the Vikings surprise teams with the Flore's defense, along with Cousins providing a Mathew Stafford-like playoff run, where the Vikings end up winning the Super Bowl.

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Post #: 427
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/8/2023 11:19:53 PM   
marty


Posts: 13047
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline 		That dream is a delusion anyway, so maybe the more realistic approach of getting lucky and getting Caleb Williams in next year's draft is kept alive.

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SKOL to the BOWL !!!
Post #: 428
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/8/2023 11:44:26 PM   
Daniel Lee Young

 

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Status: offline 		One flew is now hamburger helper.

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RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/9/2023 7:23:57 AM   
Phil Riewer


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From: MN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Trading Hunter, is probably the smart thing to do, if they can get a 1st rounder for him

But losing Cook and Hunter feels like all hope is lost of some sort of magical Super Bowl run this coming season, where the Vikings surprise teams with the Flore's defense, along with Cousins providing a Mathew Stafford-like playoff run, where the Vikings end up winning the Super Bowl.


Keeping a soon to be 28 yr old RBs and a DE who has missed half the time the last 3-4 years is a good business decision?

OLB that can rush the passer can be found easier than DE that can rush the passer but we are going with a 3-4.

Addison did better with Pinkett than Williams and the Vikings drafted him in the 1st; what does that tell you the Vikings think about Addison versus Williams? Hell most of the NFL would have picked Addison in our spot so what does most of the NFL think about Williams right now? That could change in a year I guess.

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Post #: 430
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/9/2023 8:04:43 AM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 27426
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline 		Another 28 year old RB:


Joe Spinosa
@realjoespinosa
·
18h
No one batted an eye when Jamaal Williams (1066 yards & 17 TDs) left Detroit, but losing Dalvin's 1184 & 8 TDs is a death blow to Minnesota

Bellcow RBs with average-poor efficiency aren't valuable

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Post #: 431
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/9/2023 9:00:22 AM   
geoffrey greitzer

 

Posts: 1450
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline 		I doubt possibility.

would u trade hunter for a first round pick.

i would
Post #: 432
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/9/2023 9:05:02 AM   
geoffrey greitzer

 

Posts: 1450
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Status: offline 		hunter for trey lance?
Post #: 433
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/9/2023 9:35:00 AM   
Todd M

 

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Status: offline 		A 1st and a 3rd for Hunter.
Post #: 434
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/9/2023 10:11:30 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28598
Status: offline 		IMO teams won't fork over a high, or even a medium-range, first. Take a low first or a high second with say a fourth and run, before he walks.

He's most valuable for a team entering their window for a SB run needing a DE with the cap to pay him well. We are none of those, and we can certainly use additional resources.
Post #: 435
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/9/2023 10:20:41 AM   
Phil Riewer


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Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

IMO teams won't fork over a high, or even a medium-range, first. Take a low first or a high second with say a fourth and run, before he walks.

He's most valuable for a team entering their window for a SB run needing a DE with the cap to pay him well. We are none of those, and we can certainly use additional resources.


Totally agree....Watch Pitt or Buffalo play. Zone blitz schemes with smaller OLB, Safeties blitzing.

Davenport, Jones, and Wonuum will be used more for holding up against the run.

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Post #: 436
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/9/2023 10:21:23 AM   
Tom Sykes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

A 1st and a 3rd for Hunter.

That doesn't seem likely to me. But I'm wrong about these things every freakin time ...

Anybody that trades for Hunter will have to renegotiate his deal first or they are trading for a player on the verge of holding out for a new deal, i.e., trading for a headache or a new 'premium' contract.

Plus, any interest will come from someone after they've executed their 'offseason plan' (regular FA and the draft).

Just don't think there's any sweet deals out there for a guy with 11.5 sacks / 6 sacks / 0 sacks the last three years.

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 6/9/2023 10:23:30 AM >
Post #: 437
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/9/2023 11:15:31 AM   
ronhextall


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

A 1st and a 3rd for Hunter.

That doesn't seem likely to me. But I'm wrong about these things every freakin time ...

Anybody that trades for Hunter will have to renegotiate his deal first or they are trading for a player on the verge of holding out for a new deal, i.e., trading for a headache or a new 'premium' contract.

Plus, any interest will come from someone after they've executed their 'offseason plan' (regular FA and the draft).

Just don't think there's any sweet deals out there for a guy with 11.5 sacks / 6 sacks / 0 sacks the last three years.


I agree, if he wasn't a Viking I wouldn't even know he exited, seems to always be hurt, ineffective, or unhappy. I am surprised he is a 'top shelf DE'.
Post #: 438
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/9/2023 12:18:42 PM   
Trekgeekscott


Posts: 39278
Joined: 7/16/2007
From: United Federation of Planets
Status: offline 		Ian Rapoport Retweeted
Tom Pelissero
@TomPelissero
·
19m
Now official: With no last-minute trade materializing, the #Vikings are releasing four-time Pro Bowl RB Dalvin Cook, who will be free to sign with any team later today.

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Post #: 439
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2023 4:31:19 AM   
ratoppenheimer


Posts: 9554
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

Ian Rapoport Retweeted
Tom Pelissero
@TomPelissero
·
19m
Now official: With no last-minute trade materializing, the #Vikings are releasing four-time Pro Bowl RB Dalvin Cook, who will be free to sign with any team later today.




Rich Eisen@richeisen
I honestly can’t believe the running back position has reached the point where a 1k rusher 4 straight years with 52 touchdowns gets released at age 27.

You ball out in your next spot, @dalvincook

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Post #: 440
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2023 5:53:20 AM   
ratoppenheimer


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cousins is ranked between 12-15 among NFL quarterbacks, and he very often makes bone-headed plays - lacks the brain of a savvy NFL quarterback....

if we determine that he's not good enough to reach the super bowl, or at least the NFC championship game this season, is it really worth paying other players top dollar for their services during their prime; i.e. hockenson, Jefferson, and hunter for the final couple years at the top of his career?....


this is what i'd do now, and next season if we're letting cousins go and bringing in a rookie quarterback....


hockenson plays on his 5th-year option, and we franchise tag him next season, $11.3mm/2024 - maybe....

jefferson plays on the final year of his rookie deal and then 5th-year option money - and then maybe franchise him, or extend him in 2025....

today, i'd offer hunter a three-year deal with a one-year bailout at franchise tag rate of $19.7mm for 2023 - perhaps trade him in 2024....

today, i'd sign a solid right guard - move ingram to the left....

should have moved Cleveland to swing tackle and blocking tight end - not signed oliver or udoh....

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the journey...is paradise.
Post #: 441
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2023 7:52:19 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28598
Status: offline 		1000 yards is no barometer. 58.8 yards a game. A RB could gain that by hitting the LOS and fall forward while stretching the ball over his head 20 times a game.

That said, Cook was one of the best runners in franchise history:

1. Foreman - mainly due the team going to the SB once he arrived.
2. Peterson
3. Cook
4. Terry Allen
5. Robert Smith
6. Ted Brown - rushing & receiving
Post #: 442
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2023 7:57:16 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28598
Status: offline 		should have moved Cleveland to swing tackle and blocking tight end - not signed oliver or udoh....

With Oliver blocking for Mattison we might not get the long gainers, but should be able to convert 3rd and short situations at a higher rate.
Post #: 443
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2023 8:11:35 AM   
David F.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

should have moved Cleveland to swing tackle and blocking tight end - not signed oliver or udoh....

With Oliver blocking for Mattison we might not get the long gainers, but should be able to convert 3rd and short situations at a higher rate.


I don't have the stats to back it up (talking out of my ass) but it seems to me that a consistent ability to gain 3-5 yards is way more important than hitting a long TD run every two-to-three games. It was so painful to watch Cook make "business decisions" in the backfield so often when all we really needed was a rookie to hit the hole at full speed and take the damn four yards. 2nd-and-8 through 2nd-and-13 felt like a death sentence last year.

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 444
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2023 8:53:26 AM   
TJSweens


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quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

should have moved Cleveland to swing tackle and blocking tight end - not signed oliver or udoh....

With Oliver blocking for Mattison we might not get the long gainers, but should be able to convert 3rd and short situations at a higher rate.


I don't have the stats to back it up (talking out of my ass) but it seems to me that a consistent ability to gain 3-5 yards is way more important than hitting a long TD run every two-to-three games. It was so painful to watch Cook make "business decisions" in the backfield so often when all we really needed was a rookie to hit the hole at full speed and take the damn four yards. 2nd-and-8 through 2nd-and-13 felt like a death sentence last year.

Valid point. I just read that Cook was held to a yard or less on 32% of his rushes.

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Post #: 445
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2023 9:13:38 AM   
ratoppenheimer


Posts: 9554
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

should have moved Cleveland to swing tackle and blocking tight end - not signed oliver or udoh....

With Oliver blocking for Mattison we might not get the long gainers, but should be able to convert 3rd and short situations at a higher rate.


I don't have the stats to back it up (talking out of my ass) but it seems to me that a consistent ability to gain 3-5 yards is way more important than hitting a long TD run every two-to-three games. It was so painful to watch Cook make "business decisions" in the backfield so often when all we really needed was a rookie to hit the hole at full speed and take the damn four yards. 2nd-and-8 through 2nd-and-13 felt like a death sentence last year.

Valid point. I just read that Cook was held to a yard or less on 32% of his rushes.



my point was that Cleveland would be blocking in the tight end position, and also used as needed at tackle....

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the journey...is paradise.
Post #: 446
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2023 9:36:39 AM   
Tom Sykes

 

Posts: 5872
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

should have moved Cleveland to swing tackle and blocking tight end - not signed oliver or udoh....

With Oliver blocking for Mattison we might not get the long gainers, but should be able to convert 3rd and short situations at a higher rate.


I don't have the stats to back it up (talking out of my ass) but it seems to me that a consistent ability to gain 3-5 yards is way more important than hitting a long TD run every two-to-three games. It was so painful to watch Cook make "business decisions" in the backfield so often when all we really needed was a rookie to hit the hole at full speed and take the damn four yards. 2nd-and-8 through 2nd-and-13 felt like a death sentence last year.

I like adding an Oliver / Mattison punch but our OL is still built for positioning, not punching. Even so, we might be adding a little physicality to the offense and that’s good. A little bit of a different look.

Also, not sacrificing drives in the hope of a Cook homerun (ie, improving our short game) helps us from leaning too hard on KC decisions on 3rd and longs in the first three quarters of games. In theory. Gives him time to pull his head out and find his rhythm before the 4th qtr. In theory. Creates shallower holes for us to dig ourselves out of late. etc.

With the veteran exodus, our stinky defense, IOL, QB - we still don’t feel like a contender. But … we are at least starting to mix in some physical playoff team-like flavoring.

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 6/10/2023 9:41:20 AM >
Post #: 447
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2023 9:38:32 AM   
TJSweens


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Joined: 7/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

should have moved Cleveland to swing tackle and blocking tight end - not signed oliver or udoh....

With Oliver blocking for Mattison we might not get the long gainers, but should be able to convert 3rd and short situations at a higher rate.


I don't have the stats to back it up (talking out of my ass) but it seems to me that a consistent ability to gain 3-5 yards is way more important than hitting a long TD run every two-to-three games. It was so painful to watch Cook make "business decisions" in the backfield so often when all we really needed was a rookie to hit the hole at full speed and take the damn four yards. 2nd-and-8 through 2nd-and-13 felt like a death sentence last year.

Valid point. I just read that Cook was held to a yard or less on 32% of his rushes.

my point was that Cleveland would be blocking in the tight end position, and also used as needed at tackle....

What makes you think Cleveland can play TE? Moving Cleveland around is not going to be some magic elixir for this line. Cook has to take part of the blame. He plays the waiting game far too often looking for the big play. Sometimes you need to hit the small seam that's there instead of always waiting for a bigger one.

_____________________________

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Post #: 448
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/10/2023 1:13:58 PM   
David F.


Posts: 10864
Joined: 12/31/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

should have moved Cleveland to swing tackle and blocking tight end - not signed oliver or udoh....

With Oliver blocking for Mattison we might not get the long gainers, but should be able to convert 3rd and short situations at a higher rate.


I don't have the stats to back it up (talking out of my ass) but it seems to me that a consistent ability to gain 3-5 yards is way more important than hitting a long TD run every two-to-three games. It was so painful to watch Cook make "business decisions" in the backfield so often when all we really needed was a rookie to hit the hole at full speed and take the damn four yards. 2nd-and-8 through 2nd-and-13 felt like a death sentence last year.

Valid point. I just read that Cook was held to a yard or less on 32% of his rushes.

my point was that Cleveland would be blocking in the tight end position, and also used as needed at tackle....

What makes you think Cleveland can play TE? Moving Cleveland around is not going to be some magic elixir for this line. Cook has to take part of the blame. He plays the waiting game far too often looking for the big play. Sometimes you need to hit the small seam that's there instead of always waiting for a bigger one.


I'm surprised at how at ease I am with the callous nature of this next statement but... There's value in having two or three fringe running backs that are rookies or UDFAs that are willing to risk everything just to blast a five-yard gain up the middle where they get absolutely smoked at the end. A guy fighting for the chance to be on the team for even one more season, heck - one more game, is a dangerous and valuable asset. And guess what? They might break a big one every once in a while too!

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 449
RE: General Vikes Talk - 6/11/2023 4:35:03 AM   
ratoppenheimer


Posts: 9554
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

should have moved Cleveland to swing tackle and blocking tight end - not signed oliver or udoh....

With Oliver blocking for Mattison we might not get the long gainers, but should be able to convert 3rd and short situations at a higher rate.


I don't have the stats to back it up (talking out of my ass) but it seems to me that a consistent ability to gain 3-5 yards is way more important than hitting a long TD run every two-to-three games. It was so painful to watch Cook make "business decisions" in the backfield so often when all we really needed was a rookie to hit the hole at full speed and take the damn four yards. 2nd-and-8 through 2nd-and-13 felt like a death sentence last year.

Valid point. I just read that Cook was held to a yard or less on 32% of his rushes.

my point was that Cleveland would be blocking in the tight end position, and also used as needed at tackle....

What makes you think Cleveland can play TE? Moving Cleveland around is not going to be some magic elixir for this line. Cook has to take part of the blame. He plays the waiting game far too often looking for the big play. Sometimes you need to hit the small seam that's there instead of always waiting for a bigger one.



I have faith that Cleveland could line up as a tight end and block as well, or better, than oliver - we're guaranteeing oliver and udoh over $13mm in 2023 to do something that Cleveland can do - and we'd improve our interior ol by adding a real guard to the line....

oliver caught 14 passes last year, and only 26 over his three-year pro career - he's a surprise pass target every couple of games - any NFL player could do that....

this is my position on the matter....

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the journey...is paradise.
Post #: 450
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