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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 11:34:41 AM   
Todd M

 

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Can’t know what’s in the man’s heart or what gets said behind closed doors. JJ could simply want to play under brighter lights. Or a number of other things could want him to play somewhere else.

I wouldn’t be down on the team if they are cornered.

I’m for a trade no matter who initiates it.
Post #: 6826
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 11:39:48 AM   
Todd M

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Michael Jordon and Wayne Gretzky won a lot of championships in their prime. JJ’s appeared in one playoff game, didn’t do much, and we lost.

Picks to land you a franchise QB and let’s say a starting corner would do a lot more for this team.


Michael Jordan won his first Playoff series in his 4th season at age 24 before getting spanked in the 2nd round.

His first 3 season he was 1-9 in Playoff Games.

Won his first Championship at 27.


Honestly JJ would have to be a QB for the comparisons to be fair.
Post #: 6827
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 11:42:44 AM   
Ricky J


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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Michael Jordon and Wayne Gretzky won a lot of championships in their prime. JJ’s appeared in one playoff game, didn’t do much, and we lost.

Picks to land you a franchise QB and let’s say a starting corner would do a lot more for this team.


Michael Jordan won his first Playoff series in his 4th season at age 24 before getting spanked in the 2nd round.

His first 3 season he was 1-9 in Playoff Games.

Won his first Championship at 27.


Good stuff! And he only played with 4 teammates at a time, not 10 and 2 other units

I'm afraid our girl Caitlin Clark is going to be lucky to get back to the final 8 with her supporting cast
Post #: 6828
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 11:45:07 AM   
Phil Riewer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

I can’t see the point of pouring more money into the rathole of KFC, given the needs we have to address.. JJ

Three IOL
3 min CB
3min DL
2 LB

I mean, really, our defense was decimated, and exposed at the end of the season..

Points allowed off the charts..

The OL is a mash unit in critical care.

Give 20% of the cap to KFC?

Insanity.


Defense was exposed once Hicks, Wonnum, and Murphy went down due to depth.

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 6829
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 11:47:28 AM   
Todd M

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Michael Jordon and Wayne Gretzky won a lot of championships in their prime. JJ’s appeared in one playoff game, didn’t do much, and we lost.

Picks to land you a franchise QB and let’s say a starting corner would do a lot more for this team.


Michael Jordan won his first Playoff series in his 4th season at age 24 before getting spanked in the 2nd round.

His first 3 season he was 1-9 in Playoff Games.

Won his first Championship at 27.


Good stuff! And he only played with 4 teammates at a time, not 10 and 2 other units



Right. He’s not a comparably integral part.
Post #: 6830
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 11:51:05 AM   
Bill Johanesen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fmaltes

Justin Jefferson is a generational player. We won the lottery here. You don't trade him for more lottery tickets. THis is like talking about trading Michael Jorden or Wayne Gretzky at their prime. You just don't do it. If they were stupid enough to trade JJ like we traded Moss, I will quit being a Vikings fan and I have been a fan for 57 years. JJ is like Giannis of the Bucks (I am a bucks fan). As a Bucks fan, I waited 50 years for such a player. The JJ discussion would be like trading Giannis. In terms of what will they actually do, they will sign JJ to a contract that makes him the highest paid WR in the league the same way they made Hoc the highest paid TE. That is the right move. Second, the salary cap is a fantasy number that can always be pushed into the future IF YOU HAVE COOPERATIVE PLAYERS. Essentially, every year you delay a cap hit, you reduce its actual hit by around 8-10% because of the expected annual increases in the salary cap. Kirk Cousins will have a current legacy cap hit of around $28 million. The "net cost" in 2024 if we sign him for $40 million is $12 million. That is not an unreasonable cost for even a bridge QB. Third, a lot of what Flores did was with smoke and mirrors because he had little talent to work with. This is a huge problem that can only be fixed through SEVERAL good drafts, not free agency. A strong offense can hopefully give us some hope and entertainment while we work to upgrade the overall talent of the team especially on defense. The place to get salary cap savings is by getting rid of Harrison Smith, Oniel and Phillips and gamble on developing young drafted players. That is a big gamble. A tougher question is whether we decide that Kwesi and KOC are the right team to lead this long-term rebuild.


Two things I believe are way off.

- JJ is not an in-their-prime Jordan or Gretzky. Not even close. They are in the Mt. Rushmore for their sports, in the running for GOAT. Brady is. Mahomes may one day be. They led their teams to championships. Jefferson is several rungs below that, and even at just WR both Tyreke Hill and Ja'Maar Chase enter in the best WR discussion. As great as Jerry Rice and Moss were, they are not in the NFL GOAT discussion.

Generational player? LT was generational. Jim Brown was generational. Maybe Deion Sanders.

- The actual 2024 "net cost" as you say for signing Cousins to a $40 million contract hinges on what Brzez does. But the dead cap doesn't reduce/discount or apply against the contract. It is an obligation one way or the other.

Accounting wise, Cousins would be associated with $40 million new and $28.5 million dead. They can work on the dead cap portion IF they extend him before his contract expires. And they would still have to deal with the new $40 million. So technically they might be on the hook for a lot less in 2024, but not due to some sort of dead cap discount that you posted about.

Conversely, if his contract expires all the void year dead cap is a lump-sum must pay obligation that is accelerated into 2024. If they then sign him after he becomes a free agent, even if it is only a day after, the team is on the hook for that separate $28.5 million dead cap. Then they'd have to decide how to handle the $40 million.

No matter, with your $40 million example in new money the total cap is still $68.5 million. Overall, I see what may be your logic: push the cap out where it is discounted due to overall cap increases, rely on 'several' good drafts to fix things, and dismiss free agency... because with your plan there won't be adequate cap to work with anyway.

< Message edited by Bill Johanesen -- 1/8/2024 12:23:44 PM >
Post #: 6831
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 11:54:13 AM   
Todd M

 

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Trade to 1 in an unprecedented trade.

JJ’s 24/25 1st plus our 24/25 1st.
Post #: 6832
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 11:59:07 AM   
David Levine


Posts: 77940
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From: Las Vegas
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Can’t know what’s in the man’s heart or what gets said behind closed doors. JJ could simply want to play under brighter lights. Or a number of other things could want him to play somewhere else.

I wouldn’t be down on the team if they are cornered.

I’m for a trade no matter who initiates it.


Are you so convinced he wants out? Or just projecting what you want?
Post #: 6833
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 12:00:21 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 77940
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From: Las Vegas
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Trade to 1 in an unprecedented trade.

JJ’s 24/25 1st plus our 24/25 1st.


I'd rather take Penix at our spot or a very small trade up.

We need that draft capital to build a team around our QB.
Post #: 6834
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 12:01:39 PM   
Todd M

 

Posts: 40689
Joined: 7/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Can’t know what’s in the man’s heart or what gets said behind closed doors. JJ could simply want to play under brighter lights. Or a number of other things could want him to play somewhere else.

I wouldn’t be down on the team if they are cornered.

I’m for a trade no matter who initiates it.


Are you so convinced he wants out? Or just projecting what you want?


Probably more the latter.

If we don’t re-sign Cousins and a big market team wants him it’s probably looking more likely.
Post #: 6835
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 12:03:15 PM   
Todd M

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Trade to 1 in an unprecedented trade.

JJ’s 24/25 1st plus our 24/25 1st.


I'd rather take Penix at our spot or a very small trade up.

We need that draft capital to build a team around our QB.


Penix at our spot is surely intriguing. Can’t help but fear Minnesota is not the franchise to hold their breath over this guy’s health.
Post #: 6836
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 12:05:07 PM   
Todd M

 

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If you can miss on a Cine and hit on a Pace just draft better and you won’t feel the hit of missing picks as much.
Post #: 6837
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 12:28:35 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28612
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Michael Jordon and Wayne Gretzky won a lot of championships in their prime. JJ’s appeared in one playoff game, didn’t do much, and we lost.

Picks to land you a franchise QB and let’s say a starting corner would do a lot more for this team.


Michael Jordan won his first Playoff series in his 4th season at age 24 before getting spanked in the 2nd round.

His first 3 season he was 1-9 in Playoff Games.

Won his first Championship at 27.


The original comparison was with an "in their prime" Jordan and Gretzky. In his prime, Jordan went to six NBA finals, won all six of those NBA finals, and was MVP for all six of those NBA finals. Because of what he did in his prime, he entered the GOAT conversation.

Clearly, fmaltes used Jordan and Gretzky based on them being the or among the GOATs in their sport to highlight how great JJ is.

< Message edited by Bill Johanesen -- 1/8/2024 12:40:15 PM >
Post #: 6838
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 12:32:57 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 28612
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricky J

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Michael Jordon and Wayne Gretzky won a lot of championships in their prime. JJ’s appeared in one playoff game, didn’t do much, and we lost.

Picks to land you a franchise QB and let’s say a starting corner would do a lot more for this team.


Michael Jordan won his first Playoff series in his 4th season at age 24 before getting spanked in the 2nd round.

His first 3 season he was 1-9 in Playoff Games.

Won his first Championship at 27.


Good stuff! And he only played with 4 teammates at a time, not 10 and 2 other units

I'm afraid our girl Caitlin Clark is going to be lucky to get back to the final 8 with her supporting cast


Right. It's based on a player being able to impact the team, to lead the team to championships. An NBA player like Jordan can, or more accurately did. A QB can. A WR is at best just a key cog in the wheel.

< Message edited by Bill Johanesen -- 1/8/2024 12:46:23 PM >
Post #: 6839
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 12:37:23 PM   
Richard Neussendorfer

 

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JJ generational?? Wow. I'd think a generational wr would score more TDs.
Post #: 6840
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 12:44:55 PM   
Bill Johanesen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

JJ generational?? Wow. I'd think a generational wr would score more TDs.


Maybe Addison is generational, who knows what's going to get bantered about!

But if JJ is generational and Jordan-like, then he should be paid like one. Give him the most expensive contract in the NFL. Mahomes at $50 million? Peanuts.

< Message edited by Bill Johanesen -- 1/8/2024 12:48:32 PM >
Post #: 6841
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 12:51:43 PM   
Richard Neussendorfer

 

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From: Alamogordo, NM
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With JJ without JJ with Kirk without Kirk we always seemed to be around the 20 ppg area.
Post #: 6842
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 12:52:08 PM   
Bill Johanesen


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Man, as good as Addison was this year rookie TE LaPorta has near-identical stats.
Post #: 6843
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 12:53:24 PM   
Richard Neussendorfer

 

Posts: 19617
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From: Alamogordo, NM
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Man, as good as Addison was this year rookie TE LaPorta has near-identical stats.

La Porta is a stud
Post #: 6844
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 12:53:46 PM   
Bill Johanesen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

With JJ without JJ with Kirk without Kirk we always seemed to be around the 20 ppg area.



KOC's comfort zone.

Scoring too much? Recite verses from War & Peace during the play calls.
Post #: 6845
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 12:56:03 PM   
Richard Neussendorfer

 

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From: Alamogordo, NM
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Neussendorfer

With JJ without JJ with Kirk without Kirk we always seemed to be around the 20 ppg area.



KOC's comfort zone.

Scoring too much? Recite verses from War & Peace during the play calls.

I was gonna say that may be a huge indictment against KOC
Post #: 6846
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 1:20:51 PM   
Karl Juhnke


Posts: 13027
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Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

Michael Jordon and Wayne Gretzky won a lot of championships in their prime. JJ’s appeared in one playoff game, didn’t do much, and we lost.

Picks to land you a franchise QB and let’s say a starting corner would do a lot more for this team.


Michael Jordan won his first Playoff series in his 4th season at age 24 before getting spanked in the 2nd round.

His first 3 season he was 1-9 in Playoff Games.

Won his first Championship at 27.


I remember those early days. The Bulls were bad. How quickly people forget. Bulls road games were great for the home crowds. You got to see one of the great rising stars of the league but your team was still likely going to win.

When Jordan finally won that first one, he was VERY emotional about it. Broke down hugging the trophy.

< Message edited by Karl Juhnke -- 1/8/2024 5:48:11 PM >
Post #: 6847
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 2:17:22 PM   
David F.


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Just catching up…. I would be in favor of signing Michael Jordan and/or Wayne Gretzky

_____________________________

I wouldn't give ANY qb $30-50+ mil unless that QB had won me a Super Bowl. Did you win a Super Bowl on your rookie deal? Yes? Great! Here's your hugenormous contract. F it let's just run victory laps and love life. No? Good luck. Next!
Post #: 6848
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 2:30:53 PM   
Richard Neussendorfer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David F.

Just catching up…. I would be in favor of signing Michael Jordan and/or Wayne Gretzky

Post #: 6849
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/8/2024 3:48:28 PM   
Bill Jandro

 

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Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: online
We need to start thinking 2-3 years down the line and stop with this bullshit that we are 1 piece away.

This has been the problem with this franchise for at least the last 5 years. They need to look at the long picture get cap healthy and build through the draft. Just stop with the one year band aid deals kicking money down the road.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft
Post #: 6850
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