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RE: 2024 Draft

 
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RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 8:06:01 AM   
kgdabom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

McCarthy rises to the occasion when things heat up. I see him as the next Eli Manning, a poor regular season QB that goes on a playoff run, and is the most likely of the 5 (McCarthy, Daniels, Maye, Penix or Nix) to win a Super Bowl.

The only knock on McCarthy is passing volume. He's a great athlete and when he does pass he does so very well. I won't have any issue with us picking him as long as it's at 11. If we use 11 and 23 that would be a little depressing, but I could live with it.

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RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 8:09:01 AM   
Karl Juhnke


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I find myself hoping more and more the Vikings would just stand pat and take Pennix and another stud in the first round.

I know this is not likely. They obviously acquired #23 as a chip to move up from 11. But here’s the thing. ‘Deep QB draft’ is misleading. 1st round QBs are historically a coin flip at best to pan out, and even rarer to become a franchise guy, a HOFer who will lead a team to Super Bowls. Go through the drafts of the last 10-15 years and see for yourself. Just as many 1st round busts as all pros. Even ones hyped as much as this group is.

In my opinion this is true whether there are 2 first round QBs or 10. The only thing a deep QB draft does is increase your chance of getting a coin handed to you. But you still need to flip it. And you’re still going to lose half the time. A deep QB draft does NOT increase your chances of success.

So I would not favor giving up more draft capital to move up. Unless it was for Williams, who is in a class by himself IMO but he is unattainable.

< Message edited by Karl Juhnke -- 4/19/2024 8:10:11 AM >
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RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 9:14:58 AM   
Trekgeekscott


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I would rather the Vikings do the same, draft two guys.

I have come to the conclusion that I will not be emotionally invested in who we pick because I have no control over that. Debating all the pros and cons and plusses and minuses and speculating who would be a good fit and who wouldn't is fun to a point, but after a while its all just guessing.

I find that I will only be upset if we DON'T get a QB. Because we need one. and I've stated many times that we should be drafting one every stinking year.

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RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 9:56:41 AM   
TJSweens


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If the Vikings don't move up for Maye or McCarthy, I don't want them drafting Penix or Nix at 11. I don't see either one of leading an NFL offense to anything.

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RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 10:09:36 AM   
Karl Juhnke


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

If the Vikings don't move up for Maye or McCarthy, I don't want them drafting Penix or Nix at 11. I don't see either one of leading an NFL offense to anything.


I think Pennix has a chance. What if they can get him at 23?
Post #: 1330
RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 10:12:55 AM   
marty


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If it's a coin flip for a franchise QB, and 6 QBs makes for 3 coin flips, drafting 2 QBs would get you 2 coins to flip.

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RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 10:17:17 AM   
marty


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know this is not likely. They obviously acquired #23 as a chip to move up from 11.

Had the Vikings initiated the trade, I would believe that. Houston wanted it for Diggs, they probably had that pre-arranged.

I think with the Vikings, it was like some good luck coming your way, like we hadn't thought of that, but that will give us a better chance on moving up.

The Vikings might not be hell bent on moving up, but will be in an intense room of tons of options, which they will 'carefully' weigh with lots of analysis.

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RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 10:35:03 AM   
Tom Sykes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Todd M

If Daniels gets to 3 he’s the big prize. The only one I want to make a big move for.

Depending on 2 teams to make moves in our favor.

Otherwise I like Tim’s plan.



offer washington 11, 23, and two 1sts - '25 and '26 - and they kick back a 2nd in '26...or they don't kick back a 2nd...just get daniels....

in my experience, people don't regret spending more for quality, but they do regret spending less for inferior....

daniels is the man, go get him....


Four 1st round picks for a guy who could easily end up being the next Justin Fields?
I wouldn't do it.

It would have to be a Peyton Manning/Andrew Luck type prospect for me to even consider it.

If he falls to you... sure.
But unless you grade him as MILES above the other 4-5 qbs in this draft... I'd say that is a bad decision.


of course, one of the prerequisites for the four 1st rounders would be that O'Connell is very, very high on the quarterback...

First of all, Williams doesn't even come close to the same fanfare as Manning Luck, much less the other guys. Is Williams even as highly touted as Lawrence. Maybe.

And what qualifies O'Connell as such a good judge of college QB talent?

As WASH OC in 2019, they drafted Haskins. As Vikings HC, they drafted Hall. That's it for QBs associated with his different stops as a coach.

But wait. Its not just his decision ... 3D chess-draft grandmaster Kwesi is also involved.

The only two QBs associated with Kwesi tenures were Beathard by the 49ers (2017) [when he was more of a cap / contract guy] and Hall las year.

So howsa bout we don't sink 4 first rd picks on a wild hair by Kevin or Kwesi?


Right. O'Connell this and O'Connell that as if he is some kind of QB guru.

What's the hoopla about his scheme being such a good fit? Is it being among the league leaders in pass attempts (3rd in 2022, 4th in 2023)? McCarthy's head will be spinning with that workload. It's less scheme and more about the good targets.


O’Connell Might not be a ‘beat all’ quarterback guru, but he’s our quarterback guru, and he’s the only one we have…..

Who else are we going to trust?…..

If he says Daniels is the man, that’s enough for me, four 1st round pics – no problem….

KOC was a QB, has been coached by QB coaches, and has coached QBs.

I know it sounds cheeky for someone like myself [who knows squat] to downplay his expertise ...

I'm just saying IMO he is working his way through this process. Maybe for the first time.

I want commitment and decisiveness but I also want maturity ... someone who's not going to empty their rounds like a baby scorpion just because its his first first rd QB draft.

< Message edited by Tom Sykes -- 4/19/2024 10:36:20 AM >
Post #: 1333
RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 12:08:53 PM   
Chris Olson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

know this is not likely. They obviously acquired #23 as a chip to move up from 11.

Had the Vikings initiated the trade, I would believe that. Houston wanted it for Diggs, they probably had that pre-arranged.

I think with the Vikings, it was like some good luck coming your way, like we hadn't thought of that, but that will give us a better chance on moving up.

The Vikings might not be hell bent on moving up, but will be in an intense room of tons of options, which they will 'carefully' weigh with lots of analysis.

oh i bet you are right...I wondered why they would initiate that trade

I think they would like to move up if they can get to top 3, but I don't buy 3 firsts to 4 for McCarthy
Post #: 1334
RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 12:11:56 PM   
Bill Johanesen


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Get on the Rattler bandwagon!

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2024/story/_/id/39970219/spencer-rattler-quarterback-south-carolina-oklahoma-nfl-draft
Post #: 1335
RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 12:24:31 PM   
bongbong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

If the Vikings don't move up for Maye or McCarthy, I don't want them drafting Penix or Nix at 11. I don't see either one of leading an NFL offense to anything.


I think Pennix has a chance. What if they can get him at 23?


Take him at 11, feel good about it. (Then practice your coin flipping.)
Post #: 1336
RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 12:41:26 PM   
Trekgeekscott


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Get on the Rattler bandwagon!

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2024/story/_/id/39970219/spencer-rattler-quarterback-south-carolina-oklahoma-nfl-draft


Tantalizing talent.

He's had to endure some adversity which a lot of top draft picks never have...that may be a plus.

Perhaps the Vikings are stealth on him and will surprisingly grab him...not saying which pick. Will be fun to see what happens.

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RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 12:43:38 PM   
David Levine


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Not great numbers, but he sounds like he has potential:

DRAFT PROFILE: BIO
Spencer Rattler emerged as a prominent figure in high school football, amassing over 11,000 passing yards. His skills in the field caught national attention, and he became a centerpiece of the Netflix series QB1. As the most sought-after recruit of the 2017 class, he had multiple offers but ultimately chose the Oklahoma Sooners to kick off his college career.

In 2019, Rattler's freshman year at Oklahoma, he saw limited action, participating in just three games and accumulating 81 passing yards. However, his potential shone through in 2020, a standout year for him. As the Sooners' starting quarterback, he played in 11 games, notched 3,031 passing yards, and threw 28 TDs, with a strong QB rating of 118.4. This remarkable performance earned him multiple awards, including being named the national freshman of the year by CBS Sports.

2021 presented challenges for Rattler. Despite a promising start to the season, he faced setbacks, notably being benched following turnovers in the game against Texas. The year culminated with him accruing 1,483 passing yards and 11 TDs. Subsequent to these events and looking for a fresh start, Rattler made the decision to transfer to South Carolina.

At South Carolina in 2022, Rattler was handed the starting quarterback position, he played 12 games, recording 2,791 yards, 16 TDs, and a QB rating of 91.9.

In his fifth year in 2023, He put up better numbers although still not close to his best while at Oklahoma. With 3183 yards, 19 TDs, and 8 interceptions.

SCOUTING REPORT: STRENGTHS
• Hugely experienced prospect, with over 1,300 passes attempted in four years as a starter - has successfully dealt with adversity and challenges throughout his college career
• Has excellent overall arm strength you would expect a consensus five-star prospect
• Is excellent when on the move and has the arm talent to make throws most college-level QBs wouldn't even attempt
• Despite being viewed as a mobile quarterback Rattler is skilled as a pocket passer and has a nice feel for pressure
• Sprays the ball anywhere on the field, especially when given a pocket from which to deliver. Will step up into pocket while looking downfield, reset his feet and deliver.
• Ball placement is a strength. Rattler has the natural instincts to make plays when forced to improvise.
• Generally accurate on intermediate and short throws; flashes anticipation and placement on intermediate outs and shows the ability to lead receivers on deeper throws.
• Good zip and ball placement on the quick slant. Good touch down the seam and on post-corner, flag routes to attack the defense vertically and horizontally.
• He’s a pure athlete, loose-limbed and flexible. Rattler has the speed to pick up yardage in scramble situations
• A standout natural athlete, Spencer Rattler showcases impeccable balance, light-footed mobility, and an innate ability to float seamlessly within the pocket, eluding defenders.
• Rattler's versatility is evident as he is both a proficient pocket passer and equally effective on the move, consistently keeping his eyes downfield and sensing impending pressure.
• In the realm of short to intermediate throws, Rattler excels, exhibiting an anticipation that allows him to lead receivers effectively, setting them up for optimal yards after the catch.
• One of his standout traits is a rapid release, coupled with the capability to throw from a variety of arm angles, making him a multifaceted and unpredictable threat.
• Even in off-balance situations or while on the move, Rattler's throws are marked by impressive velocity and pinpoint accuracy, testament to his exceptional arm talent.

SCOUTING REPORT: WEAKNESSES
• At 6-1 and roughly 215 pounds, Rattler doesn't fit the ideal QB mold
• Notably, his pocket composure falters under duress. He exhibits a tendency to throw off his back foot and overly relies on his arm strength during on-the-move passes, which often compromises accuracy.
• Mechanical inconsistencies were glaring in 2021. While capable of standout plays, his footwork and release were unreliable and often detracted from his performance on-field.
• Questions linger regarding his football acumen. For NFL standards, Rattler has yet to solidly exhibit the decision-making finesse and high-caliber football IQ expected at the professional level.
• Field vision remains an area of contention. Rattler's penchant for locking onto primary targets, even when alternative options are evident, raises concerns about his ability to effectively navigate complex defensive schemes.
• Once considered a promising possible generational talent after a banner year in 2020, he's never returned to that playing level and many scouts consider the 2023 performance his ceiling

SCOUTING REPORT: SUMMARY
Spencer Rattler's collegiate journey is one for the books. From being celebrated as the potential top prospect in the entire draft to facing being benched and being forced to transfer, his path hasn't been exactly linear. Rattler's arm, often drawing comparisons to the likes of Mahomes for its sheer elite prowess, showcases his potential. Yet, lapses in on-field decision-making cast shadows on his NFL readiness.

Today's NFL quarterback is expected to make swift decisions, possess a dual-threat capability, and demonstrate a rapid release. Rattler certainly impresses with his release and innate accuracy. However, when juxtaposed with these modern expectations, some facets of his game fall short. His stature and limited athleticism further compound these challenges.

Rattler remains an enigma in the 2024 NFL Draft discussions. His raw ability hints at a first-round pick, but gameplay inconsistencies beg to differ. We were hoping that in 2023 he would rebound and show the kind of form that was evident in his huge year for Oklahoma in 2020, but despite some minor improvements, we saw none of that big jump that scouts were looking for.

There is no doubt that Rattler has the requisite physical tools to be a star at the next level but it's difficult to give a top grade to a prospect whose best football was played more than three years ago. While many pro teams view him as having first-round upside (which he undoubtedly does), most teams will be looking at him as a prospect with too many inconsistencies to take any higher than the third round.

NOTE:
After running a statistical comparison Rattler's statistics both in terms of on-field production and physicals are almost identical to the Niner's Brock Purdy, in fact at this point the only obvious difference between the two is Rattler's much stronger arm. We're not suggesting that Rattler is a shoo-in for the league MVP in his second year as a pro but it's worth noting for those teams looking to find a future starter outside the first round.

https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/Player/Spencer-Rattler-QB-Oklahoma
Post #: 1338
RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 12:44:58 PM   
David Levine


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He's small, not fast straight line or laterally, but he has a good initial burst:

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RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 2:03:20 PM   
David Levine


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I don't hate this mock from a DN poster:

Stick and pick at #11. The defensive player we can end up with at #23 is just too good and I'm not convinced Maye or McCarthy will be better than Penix.

11. Michael Penix Jr.QB Washington 6:2 216 RAS 9.75 I think Penix will be a very good QB. Especially with our situation. We have he and Darnold for 2024.

23. Byron Murphy II DT Texas 6:00 301 RAS 9.23 Interior pass pressure AT LAST.

108. Braelon Allen RB Wisconsin 6:1 235 RAS N/A BIG, FAST RB. Only 20 years old.

129. Brandon Coleman OG TCU 6:4 309 RAS 9.97

157. Luke McCaffrey WR Rice 6:1 199 RAS 9.44 Perfect #3 WR with Jefferson and Addison.

167. Zak Zinter OG Michigan 6:5 309 RAS N/A

177. Cedric Johnson EDGE Ole Miss 6:3 260 RAS 9.28

230. Qwan'tez Stiggers CB Toronto (CFL) 5:11 204 RAS 9.34 CFL CB with decent size and athleticism.

232. Mark PerryS TCU 6:0 211 RAS 9.6 CF type of Safety. Ballhawk.
Post #: 1340
RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 2:11:52 PM   
Chris Olson


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I think Byron Murphy goes closer to 11 than 23, but I love that draft
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RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 2:23:40 PM   
Chris Olson


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Not a big Colin Cowherd fan but he made an interesting observation about QB's coming through the draft over the years

The ones that translated to the NFL were the ones that did one of two things:

"you either elevate an average or weak college roster, or on a stacked roster you're Superman... JJ McCarthy is neither."

1. Caleb-Superman
2. Drake-both
3. Jayden-Superman
4. McCarthy-neither
5. Penix-both?
6. Nix-not sure, Superman, I guess?

Here's his fuller explanation:

How do we predict who’s going to make it and who’s not? I went to the last ten drafts and we can argue that there are 12 quarterback ‘hits’ in the last ten drafts. Stroud, Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, Burrow, Lamar, Hurts, Love, Murray, Lawrence, Prescott, Goff. The school clearly doesn’t matter because Josh Allen went to Wyoming, Jared Goff went to Cal, Jordan Love went to Utah State, and Lamar Jackson went to Louisville... Size is mostly overrated. Kyler Murray is small, Josh Allen is a giant. You’d rather be bigger than smaller, but Lamar Jackson came in really spindly, and Mahomes has average size. The franchise history can matter but it doesn’t matter that much. Trevor Lawrence got the Jags to the playoffs, Kyler Murray did the same with Arizona, and Joe Burrow got the Bengals to the Super Bowl. The only criteria that I have found that I can depend on is one of two things that gives you a higher probability to be a franchise guy. Number one: in college you either elevated an average or a weaker roster – Lamar Jackson, Goff, Dak, Josh Allen, Mahomes, Jordan Love, Justin Herbert... Or the second criteria that becomes an NFL hit in the last decade is that you’re on a stacked team, but you’re insane productive. Jalen Hurts’ last year at Oklahoma, Joe Burrow’s last year on LSU, Kyler Murray-Oklahoma... You either elevate an average or weak college roster, or on a stacked roster you’re Superman... JJ McCarthy is neither.

He had average stats on a stacked roster. That’s my issue. McCarthy had only 25 total touchdowns last year on a team that blew out a lot of people. He had one 300-yard game. He’s 6’3”, he’s tall enough, he won a bunch of games, but he didn’t elevate a team that had average players, and he didn’t put up crazy productive numbers like all the other guys who were hits in the NFL. His Michigan experience is not an NFL experience where you will go to a crappy team and have to elevate an average roster, or maybe you go to a stacked roster on a great team in the NFL, but that’s very rare. Most of those great teams already have great quarterbacks.”


https://www.theherdnow.com/featured/the-herd-with-colin-cowherd/content/2024-04-17-colin-cowherd-why-you-shouldnt-draft-jj-mccarthy/

< Message edited by Chris Olson -- 4/19/2024 4:00:52 PM >
Post #: 1342
RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 2:42:07 PM   
kgdabom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bongbong

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karl Juhnke

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

If the Vikings don't move up for Maye or McCarthy, I don't want them drafting Penix or Nix at 11. I don't see either one of leading an NFL offense to anything.


I think Pennix has a chance. What if they can get him at 23?


Take him at 11, feel good about it. (Then practice your coin flipping.)



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Post #: 1343
RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 7:41:41 PM   
marty


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Rattler doesn't sound like a very good name for a QB, sounds like he would get Rattled

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RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 7:56:02 PM   
thebigo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Rattler doesn't sound like a very good name for a QB, sounds like he would get Rattled

Rattlers don't get rattled. They rattle others.
Post #: 1345
RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 7:57:12 PM   
Chris Olson


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No, marty, Rattler's the one doing the rattling
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RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 8:13:20 PM   
marty


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Sorta like Kenny the Snake Stabler ?

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RE: 2024 Draft - 4/19/2024 9:04:20 PM   
Murph


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

Sorta like Kenny the Snake Stabler ?




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RE: 2024 Draft - 4/20/2024 11:54:08 AM   
Daniel Lee Young


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offline Not a big Colin Cowherd fan but he made an interesting observation about QB's coming through the draft over the years

The ones that translated to the NFL were the ones that did one of two things:

"you either elevate an average or weak college roster, or on a stacked roster you're Superman... JJ McCarthy is neither."

1. Caleb-Superman
2. Drake-both
3. Jayden-Superman
4. McCarthy-neither
5. Penix-both?
6. Nix-not sure, Superman, I guess?

Here's his fuller explanation:

How do we predict who’s going to make it and who’s not? I went to the last ten drafts and we can argue that there are 12 quarterback ‘hits’ in the last ten drafts. Stroud, Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, Burrow, Lamar, Hurts, Love, Murray, Lawrence, Prescott, Goff.


At least half this list of 12 “hits” by cowherd, our panel of experts wouldn’t take if they were available for free..

Ergo Colin cowherd is an idiot and so is anyone who thinks he knows a god damn thing about QB play or potential in the NFL.

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Post #: 1349
RE: 2024 Draft - 4/20/2024 4:55:09 PM   
Bill Jandro

 

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I think I'd be ok with trading back and getting a mid to later 2nd rd pick and take Rattler.

If O'Connell is this so called qb whisperer. He can coach him up.

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