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RE: General Vikes Talk

 
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RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/17/2026 8:17:16 PM  1 votes
marty


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McCarthy was about to surpass Murray, when Murray was named the starter, which immediately gave Murray a little practice bump.

McCarthy and KOC don't seem to get along, possibly because McCarthy knows what it takes to have more success, how to call better plays, than KOC's slew of slow developing plays.

The Vikings win in the 4th quarter when things are speeding up, and BFlo's defense can take over the game.

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Post #: 126
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/17/2026 8:22:05 PM  1 votes
marty


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KOC and McCarthy might not get along, but by fate, or by God's will, they will probably be working together to have a shot at winning the division this year.

KOC can help to correct some of McCarthy's fundamentals, correct his flaws, getting him to throw some softer throws, while McCarthy can help KOC with his flaws in play calling and game management, and use their strengths to possibly win the division and go on a playoff run.

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Post #: 127
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/17/2026 8:24:11 PM  1 votes
beo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
o'connell cannot call in-game offensive plays...simple as that...he's a complete failure at in-game play calling...never did it before we hired him...lesson for wilfs: don't hire a head coach that also does the in-game play calling because you can't fire that guy without firing the head coach....

o'connell's preference has always been; pure progression, long developing pass plays...his quarterbacks have to sit back in the pocket waiting for the plays to develop, and when they're doing that, they've got these huge monsters trying to rip their heads off....

our qbs got injured last season, and it's not going well this season....

o'connell calls shitty running plays, and doesn't even like to call any running plays...why would he start aron jones?...why would he run mason off-tackle?...he likes murray because he can't play under center, and that means more passing plays....

o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up because he went to the hospital for the birth of his child...o'connell could have moved the activities on that wednesday, to thursday, so mccarthy could be there to practice, but no, then he wouldn't get to pout about it...and it was for a home game....

o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up because he did the 'griddy' while running in for a score against dallas... jefferson does the griddy every td....

o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up because he called/calls himself nine (9)...jefferson calls himself 'jets', but he's not immature....


I'm hardly a KOC apologist...

His handling of Darnold/JJM has been a disaster.

That being said:
"o'connell cannot call in-game offensive plays"
He is #10 winning % among active coaches... hardly inept.

"pure progression, long developing pass plays.."
true

"doesn't even like to call any running plays.."
look up last 6 games
against packers he had one of the higher run % for that week
i think running balance has/is changing

"o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up"
or maybe he is frustrated JJM is NEVER available
maybe Jettas gets a pass because he HAS PRODUCED
it's not only KOC criticising JJM for these things

< Message edited by beo -- 9/17/2026 8:36:26 PM >
Post #: 128
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 4:44:53 AM  1 votes
marty


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What is the breakdown by quarter of the KOC offense ?

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Post #: 129
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 7:34:49 AM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 32058
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
o'connell cannot call in-game offensive plays...simple as that...he's a complete failure at in-game play calling...never did it before we hired him...lesson for wilfs: don't hire a head coach that also does the in-game play calling because you can't fire that guy without firing the head coach....

o'connell's preference has always been; pure progression, long developing pass plays...his quarterbacks have to sit back in the pocket waiting for the plays to develop, and when they're doing that, they've got these huge monsters trying to rip their heads off....

our qbs got injured last season, and it's not going well this season....

o'connell calls shitty running plays, and doesn't even like to call any running plays...why would he start aron jones?...why would he run mason off-tackle?...he likes murray because he can't play under center, and that means more passing plays....

o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up because he went to the hospital for the birth of his child...o'connell could have moved the activities on that wednesday, to thursday, so mccarthy could be there to practice, but no, then he wouldn't get to pout about it...and it was for a home game....

o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up because he did the 'griddy' while running in for a score against dallas... jefferson does the griddy every td....

o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up because he called/calls himself nine (9)...jefferson calls himself 'jets', but he's not immature....


I'm hardly a KOC apologist...

His handling of Darnold/JJM has been a disaster.

That being said:
"o'connell cannot call in-game offensive plays"
He is #10 winning % among active coaches... hardly inept.

"pure progression, long developing pass plays.."
true

"doesn't even like to call any running plays.."
look up last 6 games
against packers he had one of the higher run % for that week
i think running balance has/is changing

"o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up"
or maybe he is frustrated JJM is NEVER available
maybe Jettas gets a pass because he HAS PRODUCED
it's not only KOC criticising JJM for these things


Win playoff games and nothing else matters and that naysayers go away.
He overachieves during the season but can't win a playoff game......maybe that is talent or his coaching style doesn't win playoff games?

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 9/18/2026 8:39:47 AM >


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Post #: 130
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 8:08:22 AM   
marty


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Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: online
You usually have to do more quick hitters, and or run the ball more in playoff games, playoff defense will bring heat

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Post #: 131
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 8:28:05 AM   
beo

 

Posts: 2665
Joined: 3/18/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
o'connell cannot call in-game offensive plays...simple as that...he's a complete failure at in-game play calling...never did it before we hired him...lesson for wilfs: don't hire a head coach that also does the in-game play calling because you can't fire that guy without firing the head coach....

o'connell's preference has always been; pure progression, long developing pass plays...his quarterbacks have to sit back in the pocket waiting for the plays to develop, and when they're doing that, they've got these huge monsters trying to rip their heads off....

our qbs got injured last season, and it's not going well this season....

o'connell calls shitty running plays, and doesn't even like to call any running plays...why would he start aron jones?...why would he run mason off-tackle?...he likes murray because he can't play under center, and that means more passing plays....

o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up because he went to the hospital for the birth of his child...o'connell could have moved the activities on that wednesday, to thursday, so mccarthy could be there to practice, but no, then he wouldn't get to pout about it...and it was for a home game....

o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up because he did the 'griddy' while running in for a score against dallas... jefferson does the griddy every td....

o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up because he called/calls himself nine (9)...jefferson calls himself 'jets', but he's not immature....


I'm hardly a KOC apologist...

His handling of Darnold/JJM has been a disaster.

That being said:
"o'connell cannot call in-game offensive plays"
He is #10 winning % among active coaches... hardly inept.

"pure progression, long developing pass plays.."
true

"doesn't even like to call any running plays.."
look up last 6 games
against packers he had one of the higher run % for that week
i think running balance has/is changing

"o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up"
or maybe he is frustrated JJM is NEVER available
maybe Jettas gets a pass because he HAS PRODUCED
it's not only KOC criticising JJM for these things


Win playoff games and nothing else matters and that naysayers go away.
He overachieves during the season but can't win a playoff game......maybe that talent or his coaching style doesn't win playoff games?


100%
I feel KOC is another in a long list of "good but not great" Vikings coaches.
Post #: 132
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 8:41:16 AM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 32058
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
o'connell cannot call in-game offensive plays...simple as that...he's a complete failure at in-game play calling...never did it before we hired him...lesson for wilfs: don't hire a head coach that also does the in-game play calling because you can't fire that guy without firing the head coach....

o'connell's preference has always been; pure progression, long developing pass plays...his quarterbacks have to sit back in the pocket waiting for the plays to develop, and when they're doing that, they've got these huge monsters trying to rip their heads off....

our qbs got injured last season, and it's not going well this season....

o'connell calls shitty running plays, and doesn't even like to call any running plays...why would he start aron jones?...why would he run mason off-tackle?...he likes murray because he can't play under center, and that means more passing plays....

o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up because he went to the hospital for the birth of his child...o'connell could have moved the activities on that wednesday, to thursday, so mccarthy could be there to practice, but no, then he wouldn't get to pout about it...and it was for a home game....

o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up because he did the 'griddy' while running in for a score against dallas... jefferson does the griddy every td....

o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up because he called/calls himself nine (9)...jefferson calls himself 'jets', but he's not immature....


I'm hardly a KOC apologist...

His handling of Darnold/JJM has been a disaster.

That being said:
"o'connell cannot call in-game offensive plays"
He is #10 winning % among active coaches... hardly inept.

"pure progression, long developing pass plays.."
true

"doesn't even like to call any running plays.."
look up last 6 games
against packers he had one of the higher run % for that week
i think running balance has/is changing

"o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up"
or maybe he is frustrated JJM is NEVER available
maybe Jettas gets a pass because he HAS PRODUCED
it's not only KOC criticising JJM for these things


Win playoff games and nothing else matters and that naysayers go away.
He overachieves during the season but can't win a playoff game......maybe that talent or his coaching style doesn't win playoff games?


100%
I feel KOC is another in a long list of "good but not great" Vikings coaches.


I disagree. He is still a really young coach.....he embraced this RB coach and how do you know he can't be great? If he admits being cute isn't winning games he is learning.

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Post #: 133
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 9:31:20 AM   
Bill Johanesen


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Like Parcells said, "You are what your record says you are."

Maybe he can be great? After 4 full years his record shows he has not been great. The maybe/excuse game is endless. Maybe 20 other coaches out there can be great.
Post #: 134
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 9:35:32 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 33319
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: beo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

.
o'connell cannot call in-game offensive plays...simple as that...he's a complete failure at in-game play calling...never did it before we hired him...lesson for wilfs: don't hire a head coach that also does the in-game play calling because you can't fire that guy without firing the head coach....

o'connell's preference has always been; pure progression, long developing pass plays...his quarterbacks have to sit back in the pocket waiting for the plays to develop, and when they're doing that, they've got these huge monsters trying to rip their heads off....

our qbs got injured last season, and it's not going well this season....

o'connell calls shitty running plays, and doesn't even like to call any running plays...why would he start aron jones?...why would he run mason off-tackle?...he likes murray because he can't play under center, and that means more passing plays....

o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up because he went to the hospital for the birth of his child...o'connell could have moved the activities on that wednesday, to thursday, so mccarthy could be there to practice, but no, then he wouldn't get to pout about it...and it was for a home game....

o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up because he did the 'griddy' while running in for a score against dallas... jefferson does the griddy every td....

o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up because he called/calls himself nine (9)...jefferson calls himself 'jets', but he's not immature....


I'm hardly a KOC apologist...

His handling of Darnold/JJM has been a disaster.

That being said:
"o'connell cannot call in-game offensive plays"
He is #10 winning % among active coaches... hardly inept.

"pure progression, long developing pass plays.."
true

"doesn't even like to call any running plays.."
look up last 6 games
against packers he had one of the higher run % for that week
i think running balance has/is changing

"o'connell thinks mccarthy needs to grow up"
or maybe he is frustrated JJM is NEVER available
maybe Jettas gets a pass because he HAS PRODUCED
it's not only KOC criticising JJM for these things


Win playoff games and nothing else matters and that naysayers go away.
He overachieves during the season but can't win a playoff game......maybe that talent or his coaching style doesn't win playoff games?


100%
I feel KOC is another in a long list of "good but not great" Vikings coaches.


I disagree. He is still a really young coach.....he embraced this RB coach and how do you know he can't be great? If he admits being cute isn't winning games he is learning.


He overachieves during the season but can't win a playoff game.
Post #: 135
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 10:06:33 AM   
Jeff Jesser


Posts: 20296
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From: Southern Cal
Status: online
This Quarterback Room, is 100% on the HMFIC.

These guys are all hand picked, 100% on KOC.

It’s not like he is a first year coach dealing with a roster and personnel that he had no influence or decisions upon the “53”


Not that anyone cares but this is where I'm at. I agree with Dan. I think KOC does well, overall, but his lack of actual QB success is baffling. You can sort of make a case that he was handed KC's and didn't have a say, after that, it's all on him and it's not been pretty. For a "QB whisperer" he sure sucks at finding a QB
Post #: 136
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 10:09:24 AM   
ratoppenheimer


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Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
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.
last season, on 3rd/4th down with under 2yards to go o'connell passed the ball 80% of the time....

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Post #: 137
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 10:17:58 AM   
Bill Johanesen


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Speaking of which, ESPN released an in-depth Seifert article about KOC: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/49964734/nfl-minnesota-vikings-kevin-oconnell-kyler-murray-jj-mccarthy
Post #: 138
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 10:20:55 AM   
ratoppenheimer


Posts: 9971
Joined: 12/9/2007
From: cascais, portugal...still in exile
Status: offline
.
mccarthy worked with the 1s most of camp, and he should be the one starting this weekend....

o'connell should game plan mccarthy just like he did the last five games of 2025....

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the journey...is paradise.
Post #: 139
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 10:28:40 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 33319
Status: offline
From the article I posted above:

While negotiating a contract extension after the 2024 season, sources said, O'Connell sought to secure final say over composition of the 53-man roster. Adofo-Mensah would have retained all of the other traditional authority granted to general managers under the proposal, but the Wilf family declined, having long ago decided they prefer the general manager to have total personnel power.

-----

Meanwhile, multiple sources said the Vikings were surprised by the degree of McCarthy's immaturity. O'Connell has hinted publicly at it, noting last season that McCarthy's feedback during film sessions indicated he was veering wildly off script. O'Connell also did not hide his displeasure with McCarthy's decision to celebrate a touchdown against the Dallas Cowboys 5 yards before he crossed the line of scrimmage. McCarthy's admission that he did it in part because he had been told not to during practice did not sit well internally.

None of that would have been a dealbreaker had McCarthy played better. But O'Connell and key members of his coaching staff, including offensive coordinator Wes Phillips and quarterbacks coach Josh McCown, could not solve his accuracy issues or coax him into making quicker decisions in the pocket.

His performance was the most significant factor in the Vikings' elimination from postseason contention with five regular-season games remaining. At that point, McCarthy's QBR ranked No. 47 among the 50 NFL quarterbacks who had made at least one start.

-----

In the case of McCarthy, who was 21 at the time, the Vikings thought he might need multiple years before it was time to play him, sources said.

O'Connell pushed hard to trade up from No. 11 to No. 3 to select Maye, but the New England Patriots turned down Adofo-Mensah's offer. Despite recent speculation that O'Connell opposed drafting McCarthy with a trade up to No. 10, multiple sources said he supported it alongside a development plan that included credible veteran options in 2024 (Darnold) and perhaps beyond. They thought McCarthy, because of his age and perceived room for growth, could eventually be a difference-maker.

-----

O'Connell himself flinches when he's referred to as a "quarterback whisperer." The moniker implies a Midas touch that elevates any quarterback he works with, a power that no NFL coach can realistically possess.

O'Connell has coaxed a career year from Sam Darnold, elevated Kirk Cousins into a fourth-quarter marksman, suctioned two wins from journeyman Josh Dobbs and gotten 1,110 passing yards in three starts from career backup Nick Mullens. But his work with young quarterbacks does not compare favorably.

Since the start of the 2023 offseason, the Vikings have drafted two quarterbacks and kept one undrafted rookie on their roster. Of the 97 quarterbacks who have started at least one NFL game since then, McCarthy, Jaren Hall and Max Brosmer rank No. 71, No. 90 and No. 94 in career QBR, respectively.

-----

O'Connell has built and maintained his connection with players based in part on lessons he took from his own disappointing NFL quarterback career. He annually earns top grades in the NFL Players Association workplace survey. Players do not necessarily point to distinctive approaches or special team-building exercises but instead emphasize what feels to them as a deep level of personal connection and substance.

"He has a really, really, really unique ability for the entire locker room to buy into the message and the goal and the principles of how we try to do things," right tackle Brian O'Neill said. "I think he has incredible buy-in and he's one of those guys that we want to win for him, and not just alongside him. The best way I can say it is it feels like we work together."

An AFC coach suggested that it's better to think of O'Connell as "a really good playcaller" who can give quarterbacks a decisive advantage if they understand and accept his concepts.

< Message edited by Bill Johanesen -- 9/18/2026 10:54:07 AM >
Post #: 140
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 10:52:16 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 33319
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It's interesting. The regime viewed JJM as needing time. Right away he got one year to theoretically watch/learn Darnold while being injured. Last year rolls around and it's decision time. Do you play him even while thinking he still needs more time, or do you let him watch some other QB while wondering if the #10 pick is ever going to play.

Then you look at the QB himself. What did he learn that first year watching. Why haven't the most basic mechanics improved.



I think the pivot point was last offseason. They should have stuck to their original thoughts about JJM needing time, signed a vet, and rotated/eased JJM in instead of handing him the keys. At the same time, JJM is simply not a good QB and has a bit of a frat-boy leader attitude. That won't work in the NFL, especially in KOC's offense. There is no better example of the type of QB that fits than Kirk Cousins who scripts out his life in 15 minute blocks.
Post #: 141
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 11:30:38 AM   
marty


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Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: online
The script is fine, but there are times a QB should go off script, especially if there is a combination of plays that involve way too much jargon and complexity, and are too slow developing to consistently work effectively against playoff defenses.

It's ultimately the players that win, not the coaches.

I am conflicted because I feel that the smartest thing is to just play and try to develop McCarthy, while just mediocre play from Wentz or Murray might be good enough to beat many teams, if the BFlo defense can become dominant.

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Post #: 142
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 11:32:46 AM   
marty


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Kirk Cousins is 1-3 as a playoff starter, maybe he needed to go off script a few times in his prime, to win more playoff games.

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Post #: 143
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 11:47:50 AM   
David Levine


Posts: 81312
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From: Las Vegas
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

o'connell should game plan mccarthy just like he did the last five games of 2025....


Have him play "not to lose" and rely on the defense and playing bad teams to win games?

Vikings won games despite McCarthy.

The most impressive win down the stretch was beating Detroit 23-10, with them playing all their starters.

We won that game with Max Brosmer throwing the ball for 51 yards and taking 7 sacks...
Post #: 144
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 11:59:04 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 33319
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marty

The script is fine, but there are times a QB should go off script, especially if there is a combination of plays that involve way too much jargon and complexity, and are too slow developing to consistently work effectively against playoff defenses.

It's ultimately the players that win, not the coaches.

I am conflicted because I feel that the smartest thing is to just play and try to develop McCarthy, while just mediocre play from Wentz or Murray might be good enough to beat many teams, if the BFlo defense can become dominant.


'Script' referred to Cousins mapping out his life, but sure. You can't have an automaton out there. That was Cousins' weakness.

As a baseline, KOC's offense requires someone well-versed in the myriad of details, timing, etc. In high pressure situations and tight spots, yeah you better be able to lead on the fly.

< Message edited by Bill Johanesen -- 9/18/2026 12:58:45 PM >
Post #: 145
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 1:08:54 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 33319
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: ratoppenheimer

o'connell should game plan mccarthy just like he did the last five games of 2025....


Have him play "not to lose" and rely on the defense and playing bad teams to win games?

Vikings won games despite McCarthy.

The most impressive win down the stretch was beating Detroit 23-10, with them playing all their starters.

We won that game with Max Brosmer throwing the ball for 51 yards and taking 7 sacks...


I hope he doesn't bring up the GB win again when GB rested everyone and started Clayton Tune at QB (6-11, 34 yards), and the leading WR was Jakobie Keeney-James (2 catches, 15 yards)... which are also his career stats. Neither are on a roster today.
Post #: 146
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 1:45:28 PM   
Todd M

 

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Murray will most likely be cleared but Kevin O'Conservartive didn't even wait for the call.
Post #: 147
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 3:27:48 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 33319
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Good that he's going beyond the minimum when the injury is to a player's brain.
Post #: 148
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 5:22:47 PM   
Karl Juhnke


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

Good that he's going beyond the minimum when the injury is to a player's brain.


Agree. I'm fine with a cautious 'bubble wrap' approach on Murray. Until we can fully see how he looks with this offense (beyond one stupid interception) his health is the most important priority. We saw that Wentz is a capable backup. Give him the keys one more week and don't rush Murray.

< Message edited by Karl Juhnke -- 9/19/2026 8:40:57 AM >


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Post #: 149
RE: General Vikes Talk - 9/18/2026 7:25:07 PM   
Todd M

 

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Going to be hard to ask for the keys back if Wentz pulls off a W in Chicago.
Post #: 150
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