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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 9:11:43 AM   
Dave E


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From: Minneapolis
Status: offline 		609.221 ASSAULT IN THE FIRST DEGREE.
Subdivision 1.Great bodily harm.Whoever assaults another and inflicts great bodily harm may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 20 years or to payment of a fine of not more than $30,000, or both.

I suspect the question will be whether Nelson's kick caused "great bodily harm" -- or was he already so hurt that Nelson's kick added nothing? Also not sure if there is any case law that says in the instance of multiple attackers, it doesn't matter who inflicted the blow that actually did the damage, but rather damage is imputed to all attackers.

Legally, I'll be interested to see what these guys are charged with if Kolstad dies.

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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 9:11:53 AM   
Dave E


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Status: offline 		One other note -- it's unlikely to matter that Kolstad threw the first punch.

< Message edited by Dave E -- 5/14/2014 9:24:38 AM >

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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 9:24:37 AM   
Jeff Jesser


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Status: offline 		Tim,


10 seconds is an eternity if you are running up and kicking a guy in the head that's on the ground. Hell, that's about 80 yards worth of space with someone of Nelson's athetlic skills.
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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 9:29:54 AM   
Dave E


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Status: offline 		One thing I did not know until today: first degree assault carries a higher maximum sentence than manslaughter. Interesting.

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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 10:01:40 AM   
Jim Frenette


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

One thing I did not know until today: first degree assault carries a higher maximum sentence than manslaughter. Interesting.


Dave you being a lawyer you might be able to answer. I believe if the kid died an autopsy could tell what blow caused the death. Can they determine now what was the damaging blow?

BTW, kolstad gf/wife is due to give birth to a little girl. So sad.

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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 10:03:01 AM   
TJSweens


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Jesser

Tim,


10 seconds is an eternity if you are running up and kicking a guy in the head that's on the ground. Hell, that's about 80 yards worth of space with someone of Nelson's athetlic skills.


That's the time it took for Nelson to get knocked to the ground, get back up, fight through a crowd and deliver a kick. Not to mention alcohol consumption likely mitigated some of Nelson's athletic skills. In that scenario 10 seconds is just not that long of a time.

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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 10:13:31 AM   
Dave E


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Frenette

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

One thing I did not know until today: first degree assault carries a higher maximum sentence than manslaughter. Interesting.


Dave you being a lawyer you might be able to answer. I believe if the kid died an autopsy could tell what blow caused the death. Can they determine now what was the damaging blow?

BTW, kolstad gf/wife is due to give birth to a little girl. So sad.


Not sure, Jim -- I'll be very curious to see what the doctors say about the blows to the head and whether they can attribute damage to the seperate blows. Nelson's attorney has been hinting that he will be looking at that closely.

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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 10:20:54 AM   
TJSweens


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Status: offline 		Based on the film and eye witness descriptions it shouldn't be hard to determine what blows caused what damage. The punch was to the face. The back of his head hit the pavement. Nelson's kick was to the side of the head.

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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 10:27:05 AM   
Dave E


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Status: offline 		But if he's brain damaged (which it sounds like he will be, if he survives), what amount is attributable to the punch in the face/hitting head on the ground/kicked in the side of the head? Did Nelson's kick make it worse, or no? I would think those are more difficult questions to answer (although I really have no idea).

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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 10:42:10 AM   
TJSweens


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Status: offline 		They could use MRI and CAT scan images to determine all of that. There is an extensive catalog of what type of blow causes what type of brain trauma.

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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 2:35:19 PM   
Karl Juhnke


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Status: offline 		I don't think it will matter whether Kolstad delivered the first punch.

You've got a right to defend yourself, but I don't see how a kick in the head of a man unconscious on the ground is defending yourself. There is only one intent in that situation. To cause grave physical harm. This isn't kids on a playground. "He started it" is not a valid defense.

< Message edited by Karl Juhnke -- 5/14/2014 2:58:54 PM >
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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 3:04:10 PM   
Jeff Jesser


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Status: offline 		Good description Karl. That's more to my point (if I had one really, was just thinking aloud). It's why I brought up "instigator versus aggressor".
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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 3:19:08 PM   
TJSweens


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Status: offline 		Actually, it does matter Karl. Who initiated the altercation is a factor in proving an assault. The fact of the matter is you easily charge Kolstad with 3rd degree assault as well. He struck a man who's back was turned with such force that it knocked him and one other person to the ground. It's not about self defense. It's about proving the assault and it is hard to claim one person committed the assault when the other person struck him first. You really have no idea that Nelson's sole intent was to cause grave physical harm. You really have no idea that Nelson knew how badly the other guy the other was hurt. For all you know he saw the guy who sucker punched him on the ground and decided to give him a kick before he got up. For that matter you really don't know that Nelson's kick did any damage other than to cause a bruise. Now, I am not saying that Nelson is innocent or undeserving of prosecution. I am saying that proving 1st degree assault is far from certain.

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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 3:38:48 PM   
TJSweens


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Status: offline 		Trevor Shelley on the other hand is the very definition of striking someone with the intent to injure.

But another witness told police he saw Shelley at 3 a.m. that morning and Shelley, wearing a ripped red shirt, said he had been downtown and walked up to someone that was “starting something” with Nelson. Shelley allegedly told the person at 3 a.m. that he “wound up and hit him as hard as he could.”

Unprovoked he entered an altercation between 2 other people and drove his fist into someone's face as "as hard as he could". That is a much stronger case for 1st degree assault.

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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 4:02:05 PM   
Karl Juhnke


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

Actually, it does matter Karl. Who initiated the altercation is a factor in proving an assault. The fact of the matter is you easily charge Kolstad with 3rd degree assault as well. He struck a man who's back was turned with such force that it knocked him and one other person to the ground. It's not about self defense. It's about proving the assault and it is hard to claim one person committed the assault when the other person struck him first. You really have no idea that Nelson's sole intent was to cause grave physical harm. You really have no idea that Nelson knew how badly the other guy the other was hurt. For all you know he saw the guy who sucker punched him on the ground and decided to give him a kick before he got up. For that matter you really don't know that Nelson's kick did any damage other than to cause a bruise. Now, I am not saying that Nelson is innocent or undeserving of prosecution. I am saying that proving 1st degree assault is far from certain.


You're right, there's a lot we don't know. But I do know that when any person anywhere kicks another person squarely in the head while the person is lying on the ground there can be no other intent than to seriously injure the person. Just like when you kick a football there is no other possible intent than to send it flying somewhere. That's what happens when you do it. Period.

Fine, charge Kolstad with assault too for the first punch. But I still don't see how that changes Nelson's potential charges one bit.
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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 4:05:57 PM   
Dave E


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Status: offline 		Really doesn't matter if Nelson intended to harm him or not -- the question is whether he inflicted great bodily harm.

Wish I knew more about criminal law; because it would not shock me if the entirety of the damage can be attributed to everyone committing assault. Just don't know if that's true or not (certainly, Nelson's attorney's remarks would suggest the opposite, since he seems to be indicating he'll be investigating what blow did what damage).

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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 4:12:11 PM   
TJSweens


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Status: offline 		Nelson's already charged. Now it's about persuading the jury, unless a deal is worked out. By the time a trial comes around the raw public emotion will have subsided and a more balanced look at what actually happened will come front and center. At that point Kolstad's conduct leading up to the fight and the fact that Kolstad started the fight will influence the jury to some degree. My guess is that if the medical evidence shows that the brain injuries were caused by Shelley's assault on Kolstad, it will be a very uphill battle to convict Nelson of 1st degree assault.

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RE: Gopher Football - 5/14/2014 4:37:59 PM   
Dave E


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Status: offline 		By the time a trial comes around the raw public emotion will have subsided and a more balanced look at what actually happened will come front and center. At that point Kolstad's conduct leading up to the fight and the fact that Kolstad started the fight will influence the jury to some degree.

To some degree, I agree. In my experience, though, juries hone in very closely on the wording of the jury instructions (as they should) -- so I'm not sure how much the fact that Kolstad may have been the instigator will play into it. I'll be curious to see. The fact that he started it may well be balanced out by the fact that he may be sitting in the court room with brain damage.

As I believe you mentioned earlier, he may well cop to the third degree assault charge, which may well be the smart play. I'll be interested to see if the prosecutor will offer that sort of deal.

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RE: Gopher Football - 5/15/2014 8:25:17 AM   
TJSweens


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Status: offline 		My guess, which is next to worthless at this point, is that Nelson cops to 3rd degree and Shelley gets convicted of first degree. His defense is pretty pathetic to this point. He denies throwing the punch even though the cameras and several eye witnesses say he did. Now his lawyer is talking self defense, which is unbelievably puzzling. I remember National Lampoon once having an ad for the Ibor, the manly Welsh art of self defense by attacking others before they can attack you. Maybe this is what he is claiming.

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RE: Gopher Football - 5/15/2014 9:07:47 AM   
Dave E


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

My guess, which is next to worthless at this point, is that Nelson cops to 3rd degree and Shelley gets convicted of first degree. His defense is pretty pathetic to this point. He denies throwing the punch even though the cameras and several eye witnesses say he did. Now his lawyer is talking self defense, which is unbelievably puzzling. I remember National Lampoon once having an ad for the Ibor, the manly Welsh art of self defense by attacking others before they can attack you. Maybe this is what he is claiming.




Saw that article this morning and laughed out loud. I'm looking forward to his book "If I Did It."

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RE: Gopher Football - 5/16/2014 2:29:42 PM   
McMurfy


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Status: offline 		Just realized there is a Gopher Football Thread.
Haha, good one.

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RE: Gopher Football - 5/16/2014 2:36:15 PM   
twinsfan


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Status: offline 		I've gotta get a UND jab in now:

North Dakota 2 – 6 conf ; 3 – 8 overall



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RE: Gopher Football - 5/30/2014 4:28:30 PM   
Mr. Ed


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Status: offline 		Chaska lineman Dovich becomes Gophers first 2015 commitment

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RE: Gopher Football - 6/30/2014 6:23:38 PM   
lylej


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Ben Utecht ---- Memory loss at age 30.

Sad Story!!

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RE: Gopher Football - 7/2/2014 1:41:03 PM   
twinsfan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

Chaska lineman Dovich becomes Gophers first 2015 commitment

Is he still the only one? These announcement seem pretty slow coming in this summer. What's the goal this season? Win a bowl game, any bowl game?

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