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RE: MLB General Information PT 4

 
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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 9:22:33 AM   
djskillz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

Hate to be a Debbie Downer, but there are few signs that point to this org knowing what it's doing with prospects.

Arcia's ups/downs will further drive the point to be cautious with guys, to be sure they're ready for the bigs...if ever.


Which is stupid IMO. For most of these guys, just let them play and instill confidence in them. Don't bash them in the press or constantly sit them after one bad game, etc. LET THEM PLAY.

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Post #: 2501
RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 9:28:08 AM   
Mr. Ed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

Hate to be a Debbie Downer, but there are few signs that point to this org knowing what it's doing with prospects.

Arcia's ups/downs will further drive the point to be cautious with guys, to be sure they're ready for the bigs...if ever.


Which is stupid IMO. For most of these guys, just let them play and instill confidence in them. Don't bash them in the press or constantly sit them after one bad game, etc. LET THEM PLAY.


After that play Santana made/didn't make on the Pujols grounder, he looked nervous.

Looked uptight after the Error on Sunday.

These guys know when the bus is warming up. Who wants to play for a guy who rips them in the press for mistakes? They know when they screw up. They need encouragement. If some of them aren't smart enough to get it or care, which is surely possible, the criticism is probably warranted in public, if only to get their attention.

But that can be done in the manager's office, too.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 9:38:57 AM   
djskillz


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Exactly, Ed. The Twins will always be a team that needs to rely on young players with the market realities. You have to have an environment that fosters young players, not an environment where they're constantly gunshy and nervous about some crappy vet taking their job for little mistakes.

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Post #: 2503
RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 9:59:09 AM   
SoMnFan


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Great stuff Ed and Dustin
This roadblock at the top has to be removed.
We will never be relevant again, until HE is....

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 10:00:56 AM   
Dave E


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

Hate to be a Debbie Downer, but there are few signs that point to this org knowing what it's doing with prospects.

Arcia's ups/downs will further drive the point to be cautious with guys, to be sure they're ready for the bigs...if ever.


Which is stupid IMO. For most of these guys, just let them play and instill confidence in them. Don't bash them in the press or constantly sit them after one bad game, etc. LET THEM PLAY.


After that play Santana made/didn't make on the Pujols grounder, he looked nervous.

Looked uptight after the Error on Sunday.

These guys know when the bus is warming up. Who wants to play for a guy who rips them in the press for mistakes? They know when they screw up. They need encouragement. If some of them aren't smart enough to get it or care, which is surely possible, the criticism is probably warranted in public, if only to get their attention.

But that can be done in the manager's office, too.


Well said.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 10:02:50 AM   
twinsfan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

Hate to be a Debbie Downer, but there are few signs that point to this org knowing what it's doing with prospects.

Arcia's ups/downs will further drive the point to be cautious with guys, to be sure they're ready for the bigs...if ever.


Which is stupid IMO. For most of these guys, just let them play and instill confidence in them. Don't bash them in the press or constantly sit them after one bad game, etc. LET THEM PLAY.


After that play Santana made/didn't make on the Pujols grounder, he looked nervous.

Looked uptight after the Error on Sunday.

These guys know when the bus is warming up. Who wants to play for a guy who rips them in the press for mistakes? They know when they screw up. They need encouragement. If some of them aren't smart enough to get it or care, which is surely possible, the criticism is probably warranted in public, if only to get their attention.

But that can be done in the manager's office, too.


Well said.

Should have thrown to 3B. But Escobar didn't help the way he was kind of hovering around and not even on the bag for what would have been a force out. Maybe he thought he was a catcher?

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 10:04:08 AM   
Dave E


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quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

I actually would prefer the Twins spend in free agency and hold on to the prospects during this deadline. If we were closer to contention, it would be a different story.


Not much in FA thought that fits. You have to at least be seriously looking for an "ace" pitcher. This team can truly contend as soon as next year. The offense/position players are relatively set for the next few years so I don't think you spend anything there other than maybe a bench bat:

C-Pinto, 1b-Mauer, 2b-Dozier/Rosario, SS-Santana/Escobar/could use a new one maybe, 3b-Plouffe/Sano, RF-Arcia, CF-Buxton, LF-Hicks/Plouffe, DH-combo of those guys plus Vargas coming

That's a lot of talent there. Pitching, you have to assume you have at least a few guys in Meyer/Gibson/Hughes. And Nolasco is probably locked in as a #5 starter with his contract for a few years. Wouldn't hurt to grab one big gun for a couple years until (hopefully) Berrios/Stewart/Thorpe come knocking. Berrios really could be a Twin sometime next season if he keeps this up.


Even if the Twins had a development program we had confidence in, that's a lot to hope for for next year.

Arcia is up and down. Do I think he'll get it long term? Yes.

Buxton and Sano haven't played this year, and Buston hasn't had an at bat above high A. I have all the confidence in the world in him, but that is a LOT to expect of someone even with his talent level. Same with Sano, who was good, but not great, against, AA pitching last yaer.

Hicks, who knows?

Just because there is a ton of talent in the org doesn't mean it is going to come to fruition. And the fact of the matter is guys develop at different speeds; and some, even in the best orgs, hit walls and crash.

I expect this team to be better next year. But to make trades now thinking about the 2015 playoffs is pretty crazy and puts a ton of pressure on a bunch of kids.

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Post #: 2507
RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 10:06:32 AM   
djskillz


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Dave, to me it's about this division. Hell, we're "contending" now in this division. I don't expect all of those 9-10 guys to pan out in the next year or so. But if half do? We have something. I truly believe this team can be a playoff team next year if the right development decisions are made.

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Post #: 2508
RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 10:09:41 AM   
Mr. Ed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: djskillz

Dave, to me it's about this division. Hell, we're "contending" now in this division. I don't expect all of those 9-10 guys to pan out in the next year or so. But if half do? We have something. I truly believe this team can be a playoff team next year if the right development decisions are made.



But they won't be.

Gardy doesn't want to run a team with a bunch of young guys.

He wants his veterans.

Look at the crap this year.

It'll continue this way until Gardy and the front office decision makers are gone.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 10:10:19 AM   
djskillz


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Probably right, Ed. Sad.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 11:43:37 AM   
MDK


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I think players need to be moved through the system more quickly but I often wonder why position players that are young aren't eased into play.

We tend to toss them in, wait for the inevitable slump, then give them bench time. How would anyone feel with that approach.....that you failed.

How about beginning them in a platoon role......once they are established, begin using them on a regular basis.

And what the hell would it take to light a fire under Anderson's ass and get him to make a mound visit in the first inning with Gibson struggling. Did I miss something....did he ever visit with Gibson as he was struggling to find his control?

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 11:44:31 AM   
Mr. Ed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MDK

I think players need to be moved through the system more quickly but I often wonder why position players that are young aren't eased into play.

We tend to toss them in, wait for the inevitable slump, then give them bench time. How would anyone feel with that approach.....that you failed.

How about beginning them in a platoon role......once they are established, begin using them on a regular basis.

And what the hell would it take to light a fire under Anderson's ass and get him to make a mound visit in the first inning with Gibson struggling. Did I miss something....did he ever visit with Gibson as he was struggling to find his control?


You didn't miss anything. Maybe they were so stunned they didn't know what to do?

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 5:06:02 PM   
Stacey King


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Lincecum no hitting the hapless Padres offense thru 8.
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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 5:06:29 PM   
SoMnFan


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My Boy TimmyTimTim Lincecum has a no-no going thru 8!!!!
Talk about a guy resurrecting what looked like a career slide.
Love that little shit.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 5:06:53 PM   
SoMnFan


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Damn!
Stacey got me .....

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 5:35:46 PM   
SoMnFan


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Insider ...



With MLB's trade deadline just five weeks away, 23 teams are within six games of making the playoffs. This means just seven teams can be considered sellers at this juncture, with some of those still considering themselves either holding or buyers.

Several contending teams are looking for corner-outfield bats, middle infielders or bench help, and the trade market is not flooded with trade opportunities. However, a plethora of position players could move between now and the deadline.

I went through every major league roster and came up with 21 position players who have a shot of being traded this summer and could affect the pennant race. Below is a breakdown of the names as well as why (and where) they could be moved.

Middle infielders



lastname

Chase Utley | 2B | Philadelphia Phillies

The Phillies are hanging by a thread in the wild-card race, but they should be looking to sell, and Utley is probably their most attractive piece until Cliff Lee proves he is healthy. The caveat here is that Utley can veto any trade and has indicated he doesn't want to leave Philadelphia. That said, he could change his mind if the Phillies continue to struggle and he decides he wants one more shot at a World Series.

Chance of being traded: 10 percent
Possible fits: Baltimore Orioles, Toronto Blue Jays, San Francisco Giants, Oakland Athletics, St. Louis Cardinals







lastname

Jimmy Rollins | SS | Philadelphia Phillies

Like Utley, Rollins can veto any trade and says he prefers to stay in Philly. But I think his mind could change if he has an opportunity to play for a team that has a real shot at winning the World Series such as the Tigers.

Chance of being traded: 10 percent
Possible fits: Detroit Tigers, Pittsburgh Pirates







lastname

Ben Zobrist | 2B/OF | Tampa Bay Rays

The Rays control Zobrist through next year at an affordable rate ($7.5 million), but they know his trade value will never be higher than it is right now. Several teams are looking for second-base upgrades, and Zobrist’s ability to play six positions could protect teams from potential injuries around the diamond in the second half. The Marlins and A's would be the best fits to play second.

Chance of being traded: 70 percent
Possible fits: Athletics, Miami Marlins, Atlanta Braves, Cardinals, Orioles, Blue Jays, Giants







lastname

Alexei Ramirez | SS | Chicago White Sox

Ramirez is having one of the best years of his career, so his trade value will never be higher. He could be a real difference-maker for the Pirates as they wait for Alen Hanson to develop. However, the price will be steep considering he is signed through next year with a team option for 2016.

Chance of being traded: 20 percent
Possible fits: Pirates, New York Mets, Tigers







lastname

Daniel Murphy | 2B | New York Mets

Murphy leads the NL with 94 hits and would be an upgrade at second for a few contenders despite his below-average defense. The Mets don't have a lot of trade pieces, but Murphy could be used to help them improve at first base, shortstop or left field.

Chance of being traded: 50 percent
Possible fits: Orioles, Blue Jays, Giants, Braves, Athletics







lastname

Aaron Hill | 2B | Arizona Diamondbacks

Hill will be owed $12 million in 2015 and 2016, so the D-backs would have to eat some salary to make this move. However, they want to open up the middle of their infield for Didi Gregorius, Chris Owings and prospect Nick Ahmed, so they have some incentive to move him. The Orioles are the team most likely to trade for a second baseman and add salary.

Chance of being traded: 20 percent
Possible fits: Orioles, Giants







lastname

Everth Cabrera | SS | San Diego Padres

Cabrera was an All-Star last season before being suspended for his connection to Biogenesis. He's just 27 years old and won't be a free agent until 2017, so perhaps a team could take him on as a long-term project hoping that his game-changing speed could be a weapon down the stretch.

Chance of being traded: 20 percent
Possible fits: Pirates, Tigers, Mets







lastname

Stephen Drew | SS | Boston Red Sox

In retrospect, the Red Sox probably regret signing Drew and forcing Xander Bogaerts -- one of the few bright spots of their season -- to play third base. Boston could salvage the signing by getting whatever it can for Drew.

Chance of being traded: 20 percent
Possible fits: Pirates, Tigers

Corner outfielders



lastname

Michael Cuddyer | OF | Colorado Rockies

Cuddyer is on the DL with a shoulder injury but would be a great trade piece -- assuming he comes back healthy before the deadline -- for a Rockies team that has fallen out of the race. He led the NL in hitting last year and is a great clubhouse presence. He'll be a free agent this winter and would be a perfect fit in left field for the Reds.

Chance of being traded: 50 percent
Possible fits: Cincinnati Reds, Kansas City Royals, Red Sox, Seattle Mariners, Orioles







lastname

Alex Rios | OF | Texas Rangers

The Rangers think power-hitting prospect Joey Gallo could play right field in 2015, but for that to happen, they need to move Rios, who has a reasonable 2015 team option of $13.5 million. He'd be an upgrade in Cincinnati or Kansas City.

Chance of being traded: 65 percent
Possible fits: Reds, Royals, Red Sox, Orioles, Mariners







lastname

Marlon Byrd | RF | Philadelphia Phillies

His age (36) could make him tough to deal, but he's signed through next year at a not-unreasonable $8 million and is slugging .474 with 13 homers. He helped the Pirates as a midseason acquisition last summer and could help another contender this year.

Chance of being traded: 20 percent
Possible fits: Reds, Royals, Red Sox







lastname

Josh Willingham | LF | Minnesota Twins

Another outfielder who makes sense in Cincinnati, and the Reds even have a perfect late-inning defensive replacement in Chris Heisey. Willingham would really lengthen their lineup and give them a much-needed right-handed bat.

Chance of being traded: 50 percent
Possible fits: Reds, Royals, Red Sox, Orioles







lastname

Seth Smith | OF | San Diego Padres

One of Josh Byrnes' best (and final) trades was getting Smith for reliever Luke Gregerson last winter. Smith, who will be a free agent this offseason, is raking this season (.925 OPS) and would be a great piece for a number of contending teams that need a left-handed bat.

Chance of being traded: 50 percent
Possible fits: Reds, Royals







lastname

Carlos Quentin | OF | San Diego Padres

Quentin's injury history and poor performance this season make it unlikely he'll be moved, but he belongs on this list because some team might believe it can coax out the 30-homer season he's shown before.

Chance of being traded: 10 percent
Possible fits: Mariners







lastname

Gerardo Parra | OF | Arizona Diamondbacks

Parra is one of the best defensive outfielders in the game, and although he doesn't hit enough to start in a corner spot on a regular basis, he would be the perfect fourth outfielder for a contender.

Chance of being traded: 50 percent
Possible fits: Pretty much any contender

Corner infielders/DH/C



lastname

Justin Morneau | 1B | Colorado Rockies

Coors Field is probably the best spot for Morneau to finish his career, but the Rockies will have to get younger at some point. Based on where they are in the standings, they should at least listen to teams that have interest. However, there isn’t much first-base demand among contending teams.

Chance of being traded: 35 percent
Possible fits: Rangers, Mariners







lastname

Chase Headley | 3B | San Diego Padres

Headley was an MVP candidate in 2012 but hasn't been able to live up to that performance since then, and he's already missed time this season with a fractured thumb and is now dealing with a herniated disk. The Angels could soon be looking for help at the hot corner if David Freese doesn't start hitting, and Headley -- who will be a free agent this winter -- would make sense.

Chance of being traded: 35 percent
Possible fits: Los Angeles Angels, New York Yankees







lastname

Kendrys Morales | DH | Minnesota Twins

The Twins believed they were contenders when they signed Morales a few weeks ago, but by the end of July, they might realize they’re still a year or two away, and trading Morales for a midlevel prospect could be the most prudent move. A reunion with the Mariners would make sense if Justin Smoak and Jesus Montero don't start hitting.

Chance of being traded: 25 percent
Possible fits: Mariners, Rangers







lastname

Adam Dunn | DH | Chicago White Sox

There isn't a big market for designated hitters, but Dunn could help Seattle, a team that has gotten a .571 OPS from its DH spot. The Mariners can prevent runs, and he would give their pitchers a bit more run support.

Chance of being traded: 5 percent
Possible fits: Mariners







lastname

Chris Carter | 1B/DH | Houston Astros

Carter hit 29 homers last year and is on pace to duplicate that performance in 2014. His .279 OBP makes him a bench player, but his above-average power gives him some value, even on a National League club.

Chance of being traded: 60 percent
Possible fits: Almost any contender







lastname

Kurt Suzuki | C | Minnesota Twins

He has had a solid year on offense and defense and will be the first name brought up if any contender loses a catcher to injury.

Chance of being traded: 25 percent
Possible fits: Depends on injuries

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 5:36:25 PM   
SoMnFan


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Congrats TIIMMMMMMMAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Free weed tonight!

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 5:46:35 PM   
MDK


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I love when knowledgeable baseball people analyze the Twins before the trade deadlines and propose trade scenarios for the Twins to get younger and better in the future.
Cause you know the Twins will be active before the trade deadline like they have been in the past 3 years with their 90+ losses per year.

It is absolutely......


Can you imagine Josh Willingham hitting in that homer friendly park in Cincy?????

_____________________________

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The day the music died
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Post #: 2518
RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 5:47:42 PM   
SoMnFan


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Like I said the other day .... National publications assume the Twins do things the way everyone else does. It is damn hilarious.
Spot on Miles.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 5:52:34 PM   
MDK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Like I said the other day .... National publications assume the Twins do things the way everyone else does. It is damn hilarious.
Spot on Miles.


We are smarter, better and dog gone it, we like ourselves for it.

And of course, we are nicer than anyone else.

_____________________________

2-3-1959
The day the music died
11-5-2025
The day US Democracy died
Post #: 2520
RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 5:57:12 PM   
SoMnFan


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I saw a guy hit a home run the other day.
He celebrated it.
It DISGUSTED me.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 6:24:45 PM   
ewen21

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Like I said the other day .... National publications assume the Twins do things the way everyone else does. It is damn hilarious.
Spot on Miles.


It's not just that. I was listening to WFAN on the way home from work yesterday and they were bemoaning the Yankees lack of young players. The host started to talk about how the Yankees need to develop young players better. The guy cited the Twins and mentioned Terry Ryan! I about drove off the road.
Post #: 2522
RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 6:28:51 PM   
SoMnFan


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Its hard to live up to reputations ...
Its even harder to live up to those you do not deserve ........

Somehow, someway, the Twins have manipulated a thought process across the country, where we are looked at as that team that builds internally, that relies solely on fundamentals, that executes perfectly.
We were that... for very short periods of time. It hasn't applied for a long, long, long time.
But hey, we got labeled, and we're milking it until the teat is dry.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 6:34:40 PM   
ewen21

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoMnFan

Its hard to live up to reputations ...
Its even harder to live up to those you do not deserve ........

Somehow, someway, the Twins have manipulated a thought process across the country, where we are looked at as that team that builds internally, that relies solely on fundamentals, that executes perfectly.
We were that... for very short periods of time. It hasn't applied for a long, long, long time.
But hey, we got labeled, and we're milking it until the teat is dry.


The catchphrases and slogans are still thrown around in Yankees broadcasts when they play the Twins. I can't watch on mlb.com so when the Twins play the Yankees I have to watch their broadcast team. They still talk about in terms of "doing things the right way" and "fundamentals" etc....etc.....etc....and "this isn't Ron Gardenhire's fault"

The Yankees radio broadcast team has a soft spot for the Twins and they are sooooo bad. John Sterling and Suzyn Waldman. If you listened it would make your skin crawl. It's as if they get everything from Dick Bremer and LeVelle
Post #: 2524
RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 6/25/2014 9:05:23 PM   
SoMnFan


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Crasnick with a great one today.


Tony Gwynn's recent death at age 54 produced a torrent of positive reactions from writers who recalled his earthy side and ability to connect with Joe Fan through a smile or a kind word. His humility was a major piece of his legacy.
Beyond his eight batting titles, 3,141 hits and .338 career batting average, Gwynn elicited praise for his artistry at the plate. Moments after Gwynn's passing, Greg Maddux took to Twitter and called the man known as Mr. Padre "the best pure hitter I have ever faced."
Gwynn showed signs of brilliance long before he wore that gaudy yellow and brown uniform in San Diego and staked his claim to the 5.5 hole between shortstop and third base. Gary Hughes, a longtime scout who now works as a special assistant with the Boston Red Sox, flashes back to a Joe DiMaggio League tournament in California in the late 1970s. The first year, a lefty hitter unfamiliar to Hughes collected 12 hits. The next year, the same kid showed up and banged out 11.
"I followed him after that purely out of interest," Hughes said. "And then, of course, he became Tony Gwynn."
Which hitters in baseball today personify the attributes that Gwynn showed at Long Beach Polytechnic High School through his retirement as a Padre in 2001? A lot of players earn reputations as good, productive, consistent hitters. Some, like Matt Stairs, even ascend to the coveted status of "professional hitter." But pure hitters dwell in rarefied air.
Who makes the cut? Hughes and three other baseball authorities -- Miami Marlins general manager Dan Jennings, Tampa Bay Rays hitting instructor Derek Shelton and Texas Rangers hitting coach Dave Magadan -- pondered the question and shared their thoughts on the term "pure hitter" and which active players best define it.
What is a pure hitter?
Ted Williams springs to mind, but one of his prime contemporaries and generational rivals is just as deserving of the label.
"The guy I think of when you talk about 'pure hitter' is Joe DiMaggio," Shelton said. "Those guys don't strike out. They control at-bats. They drive the ball the other way. Their swing mechanics are near flawless. There's a wide group of guys in the game who are good or even great hitters, but pure hitters are really a select category."
"
[Miguel Cabrera] has very few holes, and if you execute a pitch or he does have a hole, he adjusts. ... Very few hitters can change their lower-half load and have the same swing and timing. That puts him in an elite status.
"
--Rays hitting instructor Derek Shelton

By most objective standards, any discussion of pure hitters should factor in hand-eye coordination, strength, a professional approach at the plate, an understanding of game situations and a devotion to the craft. Everyone loves hearing about the guy who could "roll out of bed and hit," but the reality is that Manny Ramirez was a hitting savant who spent countless hours studying pitchers and refining his unique skill set.
Are fluid hitting mechanics a prerequisite? Not necessarily. Vladimir Guerrero and Pablo Sandoval both merit discussion, and neither of them would appear in an instructional video. The same applies to Ichiro Suzuki, who has amassed 4,065 hits between Japan and the U.S. A lot of those hits came while he was halfway out of the box on his way toward first base.
"Ichiro may be the best hitter I've ever seen, and he was like watching a slow-pitch softball guy," Hughes said. "He could do anything he wanted with the bat and put the ball anywhere he wanted to put it."
Does power give a player an advantage over a singles-and-doubles guy in the pure hitter debate? In the estimation of most talent evaluators, yes. When Cabrera and a prime-time Albert Pujols hit .330 with monster power numbers, it places them a notch above the rest. Gwynn, Ichiro and Wade Boggs probably could have hit 20-plus homers a year, but they ultimately determined they would have sacrificed too much production at the other end.
"A lot of it is mindset," Magadan said. "Some guys are more wired to get base hits and not make outs. I think Tony and Wade were built that way."
Do an abundance of strikeouts hurt a player's case? Again, yes. David Wright is a wonderful hitter who's building a Hall of Fame résumé. But he'll go through long fallow stretches when he tries to do too much (in part because he doesn't have much help) and loses his grasp of the strike zone, and the whiffs begin to mount. The pure hitter rarely if ever gives away an at-bat.
Every baseball fan has his or her own perception of the ideal. I remember watching George Brett against the Yankees in the postseason in the late 1970s and thinking, "If my life was on the line and I had to depend on one player to get a hit, he'd be a pretty good choice." That's the ultimate test.
What attributes come into play?
Dan Jennings: "For me, the purity comes with guys who use their hands and remove their body from their swings. Most of them are linear hitters -- they're not rotational. They have the ability to deliver the barrel with their hands, ride through and extend. It's a thing of beauty."
A "rotational" hitter, in contrast, is on and off the ball and works more like a merry-go-round. Jennings classifies Mickey Mantle, Vladimir Guerrero and Adrian Beltre as hitters who've enjoyed great success in the majors with rotational swings. Beltre is so rotational, he'll routinely drop to his right knee after particularly vicious hacks.
Rays hitting instructor Derek Shelton on Robinson Cano: "As he's gotten stronger and more aware of the strike zone, he's just become more dangerous."
Derek Shelton: "If you're looking at the pure mechanics of the swing, it's someone who's able to stay balanced, control the barrel and stay short to the ball. But the pure hitter also stays within the controllables of the at-bat and doesn't get too amped up or try to do too much. Tony Gwynn's swing was beautiful, but you never saw him get outside of his approach. Very few guys in the game have that combination."
Dave Magadan: "A pure hitter has the ability to use the whole field. He's disciplined at the plate, and I don't mean having a lot of walks. I think of discipline as knowing what he wants to hit, and when he gets it, he swings at it and hits it hard. And if he doesn't get it, he takes it and waits for the pitch he's looking for. You can be disciplined and swing at the first pitch and line it to left-center for a double.
"Pure hitters all have great hand-eye coordination -- or hand-to-barrel of the bat coordination. They can manipulate the bat head and still make hard contact even when they're a little bit fooled or out in front. Look at Tony Gwynn's 3,000th hit. He was way out in front of that pitch and still managed to hit a soft line drive to the middle of the field. He always knew where the barrel of the bat was."
Gary Hughes: "The first thing for me is bat speed, because that gives a guy the ability to wait. And the pure hitter has great balance. You don't see him falling all over himself at the plate. He gets in the box, he's set and he stays in the box. He's not taking 10 minutes to get in there until his song finishes playing [over the P.A.]. He never looks not ready to hit."
The statistical definition
There's no litmus test for statistical purity at the plate, but ESPN Insider analyst Dan Szymborski classifies a pure hitter as "a guy who hits what he swings at and gets good results." So Szymborski looked back at hitters with a minimum of 2,000 plate appearances from 2008-14. He multiplied contact rate by batting average and came up with the following lists among active hitters:
•Most pure hitters: Joe Mauer, Victor Martinez, Marco Scutaro, Dustin Pedroia, Ichiro Suzuki, Robinson Cano, Martin Prado, Miguel Cabrera, Yadier Molina, Albert Pujols.
•Least pure hitters: Mark Reynolds, Carlos Pena, Adam Dunn, Pedro Alvarez, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Dan Uggla, John Buck, Ryan Howard, B.J. Upton, Chris Iannetta.
With a little tinkering, Cabrera and Pujols would probably climb the list and overtake Scutaro and Pedroia in the top group. But you get the picture.
The gold standard
A SELECT GROUP
Only 10 active MLB hitters have amassed a .300 career BA with a .360 OBP and a .450 SLG over 2,500 or more at-bats.
Player
BA
OBP
SLG

Miguel Cabrera .321 .398 .567
Joe Mauer .319 .401 .461
Albert Pujols .319 .406 .594
Joey Votto .312 .419 .536
Ryan Braun .311 .371 .560
Matt Holliday .309 .386 .525
Victor Martinez .304 .369 .472
Hanley Ramirez .300 .372 .503
Troy Tulowitzki .300 .374 .519
David Wright .300 .379 .500
Source: Baseball-reference.com


Any discussion of the best pure hitters in the game begins and ends with Detroit's Miguel Cabrera, a two-time MVP with three batting titles and five Silver Slugger Awards. As a 21-year-old with the Marlins, Cabrera had 148 strikeouts and 68 walks. Last year, at age 30, he finished with 94 strikeouts and 90 walks. His ability to command the strike zone evolved with repetition and time.
So what makes Cabrera so transcendent? His lower half is a big factor in his dominance.
"His path to the ball is as good as you want it to be," Shelton said. "He has very few holes, and if you execute a pitch or he does have a hole, he adjusts. You'll see him with a high leg kick, but if he feels like he's getting beat, he'll just pick his heel up and down. Very few hitters can change their lower-half load and have the same swing and timing. That puts him in an elite status."
Others in the discussion
Robinson Cano ranks high on the list of hitters with pure hitting ability, a track record of production and an aesthetically pleasing approach. "He's maybe the most rhythmatic hitter in baseball," said Jennings.
Cano still has the same swing he used at age 19, said Shelton, who managed him in the low minor leagues in the New York Yankees' chain.
"Robbie will flatten out his barrel, and at times he looks beat and he'll end up fouling the ball over the other team's dugout," Shelton said. "But the length he creates through the zone creates so much backspin, his timing can be off and he'll still hit the ball hard. As he's gotten stronger and more aware of the strike zone, he's just become more dangerous."
Troy Tulowitzki, Joey Votto, Joe Mauer, Hanley Ramirez, Ryan Braun, Chase Utley, David Ortiz, Carlos Gonzalez, Paul Goldschmidt, Andrew McCutchen, Buster Posey and Matt Holliday are among the other big leaguers who embody many of the attributes of the pure hitter. Votto's .312 career batting average and .419 OBP are a testament to his ability, even if he's a lightning rod for debate because some old-school observers think he's too passive in run-producing situations. And Mauer has a discerning eye and a swing straight out of a textbook.
Minnesota third base coach Joe Vavra, the Twins' hitting instructor from 2006-2012, said Mauer's "pure hitter" characteristics include exceptional hand-eye skills and bat-speed impact, a balanced setup from the bottom up, an understanding of the importance of the legs in hitting, and the ability to stick to a plan with off-speed pitches. "There is nothing the pitcher can do to alter or change Joe mechanically, nor speed up or excite him," Vavra said in an email. "He is never going to surrender an at-bat to anyone."
Utley is renowned for his amazingly quick hands and no-frills approach. His swing isn't quite Paul Molitor-like in its simplicity, but it has very few moving parts. "Chase has that prototypical 1950s low-finish swing," Shelton said. "You have to stay short to the ball to do that."
Braun also has a novel approach to hitting that becomes more stunning upon closer inspection.
"He has a funky swing, and I mean funky in a good way because he kind of stops the bat at contact and keeps two hands on it," Shelton said. "Two or three clicks post-contact in a video, he's stopping the bat, and the way the ball comes off the bat is almost unbelievable. There are things that we do in a drill to keep the barrel in the zone, and he does it as his regular swing."
The switch-hitting professional
Victor Martinez, a favorite of hitting aficionados throughout the game, has all the bases covered in a very under-the-radar way.
#41 DH
Detroit Tigers
2014 STATS
GM
73
HR
19
RBI
50
R
39
OBP
.387

AVG
.329
You want consistency? Martinez has a .305 career batting average and an .835 OPS from the left side and a .302 average and an .852 OPS from the right. He has 540 walks and 617 strikeouts over 12 seasons, and he's never whiffed 80 times.
Shelton was Martinez's hitting coach in Cleveland and Magadan served the same role in Boston, and they both marvel at his ability to repeat his mechanics from both sides of the plate. By all accounts, Martinez also possesses the game awareness required of a pure hitter.
"Victor is really good at adapting to the situation," Magadan said. "If there's a runner on third with less than two outs and the infield is back, his focus is on getting the run in. If you hang him a breaking ball, he'll drive it. But he'll also hit a ground ball to short to drive in a guy. To me, pure hitters aren't one-dimensional. They take on many different looks throughout the game."
Said Shelton: "Victor has by far the best ability to remember pitches and at-bats that I've seen. You can go through a pregame prep with him and he'll say, 'This guy threw me a 2-1 changeup two years ago, and this is what I did with it.' His recall is uncanny. He also controls an at-bat better than any hitter I've ever seen. At no point is he ever rushed. You'll see him step out and bang his bat on his leg guard and it's like he's telling the pitcher, 'Hey, this is my time.' He gets guys to rush and make bad pitches, and when they do, he does damage."
Two under-the-radar guys
Jose Altuve
Altuve
From Derek Shelton: "Jose Altuve goes under-noticed. We just played [the Astros], and I saw him get three hits on three different pitches in three parts of the zone in one game. It's impressive. His swing is short, he controls himself and it looks like he has a plan. You don't have 102 hits on June 21 by accident."
From Dave Magadan: "Yadier Molina is a guy who's made himself into that type of player. He makes consistent hard contact. He hits the ball to all fields. He can hit for power, and he seems to focus in RBI situations late in the game. He's been in the batting race the last couple of years, and for a guy who's back there having to catch [almost 140] games a year, that's pretty impressive."
Up-and-comers
Dan Jennings is a big admirer of Atlanta's Freddie Freeman and Jose Abreu of the White Sox. Matt Adams is making some waves in St. Louis, and Giancarlo Stanton is earning raves from scouts as a strong, athletic player who has learned to take a more refined approach at the plate.
Of course, any conversation about pure hitters would be remiss not to include Angels outfielder Mike Trout, whose stunning impact in a short time is reflected by the impressive company he keeps at age 22. According to the Elias Sports Bureau, Trout and Rickey Henderson both reached base 347 times in their first 400 big league games. As ESPN Stats & Information also notes, Trout recently became the first player in history with at least 300 runs, 75 homers and 75 steals in his first 400 games.
"He's fearless," Hughes said. "That's probably true of a lot of good athletes. Or maybe it's semantics and he's just self-confident, but the situation doesn't bother him. He knows he's going to get a hit, and most people in the place know it."
After nearly 50 years in the game, Hughes adheres to the belief that "pure hitters are born," but he's seen enough prospects come and go to realize there's no such thing as a sure thing. As an amateur scout Hughes was blown away by a young Bill Buckner, who went on to amass 2,715 hits in the majors. He was also smitten by a young Preston Wilson, who had a nice career in the big leagues but was ultimately limited by his contact issues.
And Hughes counts himself among the privileged few who were around to watch a budding young craftsman named Tony Gwynn, who was exquisite in the batter's box from his first professional at-bat to his last. You can generate a spirited debate about which major leaguers do or don't fit the description of "pure hitter." But the great ones have one thing in common: They stand the test of time.


< Message edited by SoMnFan -- 6/25/2014 9:09:02 PM >


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