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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 9:45:09 AM

CPAMAN

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

quote:

ORIGINAL: CPAMAN

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

7 years/155 million.

Twins will not sign a pitcher EVER to a 7 year deal.

EVER

nor should they.....

At some point, CPAMAN, we need a list of all your parameters for building a team. No long term deals, but sign really good guys, but for not too much money, etc.

Also waiting for this.

It starts with the farm system. Every ten years or so, every ML team should have a cycle where their minor league programs produce 2-3 stellar position players and at least 2 starting pitchers that form the nucleus of a championship team. Surround these core players with two quality higher-end FA and 2-3 mid-range FA and you have a World Series contender. The Twins presently have one high-end FA, zero quality minor league players transitioned to ML status, and one mid-range FA starting pitcher. You do the math.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 10:02:43 AM

Mr. Ed

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So by that model, what happens when the pitcher blows an arm out or doesn't pan out?

2 to 3 stellar position players? What if they leave, because you don't want to give them anything more than a 3 year deal?

And your minor league scouts don't hit.

And good luck hitting on higher end FA's that only will accept a 3 year contract.

To make this work, you'd better have the Tampa Bay scouts. They're really the only team that is consistently contending trying a method near this.

And even they went past 3 years on a contract with a player (Longoria).

Oh,and it helps that they have a good manager,too.

< Message edited by Mr. Ed -- 1/23/2014 10:04:51 AM >

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 10:06:12 AM

twinsfan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave E

Does my ability to analyze your mind frighten you?

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Post #: 1528

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 10:06:58 AM

twinsfan

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Milton better than Baker. Good one.

You're high, Tim.

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Post #: 1529

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 10:13:35 AM

twinsfan

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So I'm really confused. You guys are having it both ways. You laugh and say there's no way Baker has had the 3rd best starting pitching career w/ the Twins over the past 20 seasons. But then you say that it doesn't really mean anything if he is. So is he or not? That's the question. And all I'm getting are names like Liriano and Milton, which I guess are #4 and #5, but no way #3. So is everyone admitting defeat on this? Take back the laughs (at me, at least) and save them for the Twins.

How can you suggest Garza had a better Twins career than Baker?

THAT was the question.

3rd best starting pitching career with the Twins over the last 20 years. Baker is the answer, and I think all of you know it.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 10:14:42 AM

TJSweens

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The only real appreciable difference between Baker and Milton in their Twins careers was that Milton could actually make all of his starts in a season. Milton went through an IP stretch of 171, 206, 200, 220 and 171. Baker would have been in a wheel chair half way through that stretch. Milton's lowest total in that stretch is higher than all but 2 years of Baker's career. I would suggest you're the one who needs to step away from the crack pipe Matt.

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Post #: 1531

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 10:19:02 AM

TJSweens

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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

How can you suggest Garza had a better Twins career than Baker?

THAT was the question.

If you would quit toking while you read my post, you would have seen that I acknowledged that you must be focusing on Twins careers, not who is a better major league pitcher.

3rd best starting pitching career with the Twins over the last 20 years. Baker is the answer, and I think all of you know it.

No he isn't. Milton was better and Lohse was at least as good. Hell the first 2 years of Blackburnt's career were better than anything Baker did.

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Post #: 1532

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 10:25:41 AM

twinsfan

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Milton's career ERA+ was 94. Not sure what it was exactly with the Twins only, but it wasn't even 100.

Baker's career ERA+ is 102.

Milton's career WHIP was 1.34.

Baker's career WHIP is 1.26.

Baker's 16.0 WAR as a Twin ranks him 21st all-time on the Twins/Senators list.

Milton's 14.7 WAR as a Twin ranks him 24th on the list.

And your big argument is # of IP, right?

Well luckily for you, that's the only stat that Milton "bests" Baker in. A whopping 987-958 edge as Twins.

You'd think with all those additional innings Milton would have a better WAR than Baker, huh? Well....no. Milton was a more mediocre pitcher than Baker. So it doesn't work that way.

You lose, I win, end of story.

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Post #: 1533

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 10:26:39 AM

twinsfan

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Blackburn.

I was wondering when you'd go there.

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Post #: 1534

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 10:33:58 AM

TJSweens

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Back to back years for Blackburn: 193.1 IP 4.05 ERA / 205.2 4.03 ERA.

Show me where Baker was ever able to do that. He hit 200 IP once with an ERA of 4.37. His only 2 years with lower ERA's his body broke down both times.

I'll Baker the edge for an entire body of work, but it kind of underscores how unremarkable Baker was.

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RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 10:34:48 AM

TJSweens

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Hell, looking back at the numbers one could easily make the case for Carlos Silva having a better Twins career than Baker.

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Post #: 1536

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 10:38:16 AM

twinsfan

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Career WAR as Twins/Senators (relievers included). The last number is IP.

1. Walter Johnson 152.3 5915.1
2. Bert Blyleven 49.3 2566.2
3. Brad Radke 45.6 2451.0
4. Johan Santana 35.5 1308.2
5. Camilo Pascual 33.5 2465.0
6. Jim Kaat 30.5 3014.0
7. Frank Viola 27.2 1772.2
8. Jim Perry 26.2 1883.0
9. Firpo Marberry 26.0 1652.0
10. Dutch Leonard 25.2 1899.1
11. Dave Goltz 24.6 1638.0
12. Jim Shaw 19.4 1600.2
13. Kevin Tapani 19.2 1171.1
Tom Zachary 19.2 1596.2
15. Joe Nathan 18.4 463.1
16. Bump Hadley 18.0 1298.0
17. Pedro Ramos 17.8 1544.0
18. George Mogridge 17.6 1017.1
19. Bob Porterfield 16.6 1041.2
20. General Crowder 16.4 1330.0
21. Scott Baker 16.0 958.0
22. Rick Aguilera 15.5 694.0
23. Mickey Haefner 15.3 1291.2
24. Eric Milton 14.7 987.1
25. Casey Patten 14.6 2059.1
26. Dean Chance 13.0 664.0
27. Scott Erickson 12.7 979.1
Earl Whitehill 12.7 996.2
29. Lloyd Brown 12.0 933.1
30. Doc Ayers 11.9 1122.0
31. Jack Kralick 11.8 673.2
32. Jim Merritt 11.2 686.2
33. Sad Sam Jones 11.1 708.2
Jerry Koosman 11.1 601.1
35. Harry Harper 11.0 1035.1
36. Dave Boswell 10.9 1036.1
37. Garland Braxton 10.8 582.2
Walt Masterson 10.8 1346.2
39. Ray Scarborough 10.6 909.1
40. Joe Mays 10.5 946.1
41. Stan Coveleski 10.3 500.2
42. Al Worthington 10.0 473.1
43. Connie Marrero 9.6 735.1
44. Eddie Guardado 9.5 704.2
Francisco Liriano 9.5 783.1
46. Bob Groom 9.4 1353.1
Sid Hudson 9.4 1819.2
48. Carlos Silva 9.0 773.2
Geoff Zahn 9.0 852.0
50. Allan Anderson 8.6 818.2

< Message edited by twinsfan -- 1/23/2014 11:09:40 AM >

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Post #: 1537

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 10:40:32 AM

twinsfan

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Your boy Carlos Silva is 48th, behind Joe Mays (probably the next silly name off your fingertips).

Liriano was so up and down (with more downs) that he doesn't even register here.

*Edit. Oh wait. I found him. Way down at 44th.

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Post #: 1538

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 11:03:12 AM

TJSweens

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I really don't care about Worthless Ass Riduculous ratings for players.

Silva: 203 IP 4.21 ERA / 188.1 IP 3.44 ERA / 180.1 IP 5.94 ERA / 202 IP 4.19 ERA.

Baker: 143.2 IP 4.26 ERA / 171.1 IP 3.54 ERA / 200 IP 4.34 ERA / 170.1 IP 4.49 ERA / 134.2 IP 3.14 ERA.

Outside of one anomalously bad year in which he still piled an inning total that would have been the second highest in Baker's career, Silva uniformly and consistently gave the Twins a lot of innings and a chance to win when he pitched and was durable. Baker showed he could be really good at times, really bad at others and he couldn't hold up for a full season.

FYI, I never mentioned Mays or Liriano. You keep bringing them up for some reason.

< Message edited by TJSweens -- 1/23/2014 11:05:15 AM >

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Post #: 1539

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 11:06:57 AM

Trekgeekscott

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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Career WAR as Twins (relievers included). The last number is IP.

1. Walter Johnson 152.3 5915.1

1. WAR is good for nothing.
2. Walter Johnson was never a Twin.

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Post #: 1540

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 11:09:54 AM

twinsfan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Career WAR as Twins (relievers included). The last number is IP.

1. Walter Johnson 152.3 5915.1

1. WAR is good for nothing.
2. Walter Johnson was never a Twin.

Fixed it.

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Post #: 1541

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 11:11:10 AM

twinsfan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TJSweens

I really don't care about Worthless Ass Riduculous ratings for players.

Silva: 203 IP 4.21 ERA / 188.1 IP 3.44 ERA / 180.1 IP 5.94 ERA / 202 IP 4.19 ERA.

Baker: 143.2 IP 4.26 ERA / 171.1 IP 3.54 ERA / 200 IP 4.34 ERA / 170.1 IP 4.49 ERA / 134.2 IP 3.14 ERA.

Outside of one anomalously bad year in which he still piled an inning total that would have been the second highest in Baker's career, Silva uniformly and consistently gave the Twins a lot of innings and a chance to win when he pitched and was durable. Baker showed he could be really good at times, really bad at others and he couldn't hold up for a full season.

FYI, I never mentioned Mays or Liriano. You keep bringing them up for some reason.

Dave brought up Liriano (and slyly ranked him ahead of Radke).

Mays was your next bullet.

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Post #: 1542

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 11:13:19 AM

TJSweens

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I can assure Mays was not my next bullet. And no I wouldn't put Liriano ahead of Baker either. He is an even bigger potato chip than Scott.

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Post #: 1543

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 11:25:21 AM

CPAMAN

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Ed

So by that model, what happens when the pitcher blows an arm out or doesn't pan out?

2 to 3 stellar position players? What if they leave, because you don't want to give them anything more than a 3 year deal?

And your minor league scouts don't hit.

And good luck hitting on higher end FA's that only will accept a 3 year contract.

To make this work, you'd better have the Tampa Bay scouts. They're really the only team that is consistently contending trying a method near this.

And even they went past 3 years on a contract with a player (Longoria).

Oh,and it helps that they have a good manager,too.

The problem with the Twins is that they don't produce pitchers who "pan out". And they coddle their pitchers and too many complain of arm, shoulder and elbow soreness. These afflictions are the same thing that pitchers from prior decades pitched with for their entire careers. Similarly, the Twins should produce enough talent from their farm system that probably one player every two seasons ascends to the big league club and becomes a contributing ML player. With this rotation in place, there should always be several starting position players under the Twins control through their final arbitration seasons. Then, if the player is a superstar status, the Twins have to pony up the $ or trade that player while their value is high. The team should be able to maintain two players of this status all of the time plus at least one star starting pitcher. But they don't.

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Post #: 1544

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 11:28:36 AM

twinsfan

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Be sure to vote in the poll. A lot of lurkers. Make a difference!

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Post #: 1545

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 11:28:39 AM

CPAMAN

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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

So I'm really confused. You guys are having it both ways. You laugh and say there's no way Baker has had the 3rd best starting pitching career w/ the Twins over the past 20 seasons. But then you say that it doesn't really mean anything if he is. So is he or not? That's the question. And all I'm getting are names like Liriano and Milton, which I guess are #4 and #5, but no way #3. So is everyone admitting defeat on this? Take back the laughs (at me, at least) and save them for the Twins.

How can you suggest Garza had a better Twins career than Baker?

THAT was the question.

3rd best starting pitching career with the Twins over the last 20 years. Baker is the answer, and I think all of you know it.

What you are arguing Matt is something that is of no importance. The Twins have produced few decent pitchers and it shows up in their championship status over the past twenty seasons = nothing. You are arguing something equivalent to finishing in 7th place of 8 teams in a high school tournament. Who really cares who finished in 7th or 8th place?

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Post #: 1546

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 11:30:07 AM

twinsfan

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Actually it's like arguing who finishes 3rd out of 200 or so.

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Post #: 1547

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 11:55:50 AM

CPAMAN

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quote:

ORIGINAL: twinsfan

Actually it's like arguing who finishes 3rd out of 200 or so.

To make an argument that Scott Baker is the third best at anything is already depressing enough. I think your argument supports the contention held by most here that the Twins have a terrible pitcher draft, coaching and player development system within their organization. Enough said.

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Post #: 1548

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 12:46:08 PM

ronhextall

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When the team you like stinks and refuses to do things to really improve I find most conversations here are essentially like arguing over a pair of sunglasses while the spaceship you are on is going to crash into the sun.

Post #: 1549

RE: MLB General Information PT 4 - 1/23/2014 12:54:37 PM

TJSweens

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If we are plummeting into the sun I'll take an old school pair of Rayban's any day. Your retinas will be the last thing to burn up.

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Post #: 1550