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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 12:19:41 AM   
JT2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Viking Rich

Coach Moss???

That would be Sweet!

www.dailynorseman.com/2019/1/17/18187658/coach-randy-moss-wide-receiver-coach-minnesota-vikings

I don't think so. Moss was all speed, height, jumping ability. He didn't run great routes or give great effort. He was born with superb tools and didn't get as much out of them as he could have. Not great coaching material in my book.


Couldn't disagree more.

Randy Moss="I play when I want to play."


Got it.
Post #: 2651
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 12:55:50 AM   
David Levine


Posts: 65557
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Viking Rich

Coach Moss???

That would be Sweet!

www.dailynorseman.com/2019/1/17/18187658/coach-randy-moss-wide-receiver-coach-minnesota-vikings

I don't think so. Moss was all speed, height, jumping ability. He didn't run great routes or give great effort. He was born with superb tools and didn't get as much out of them as he could have. Not great coaching material in my book.


Couldn't disagree more.

Randy Moss="I play when I want to play."


Come on, as a Vikings fan you should know the context of that quote.

He was responding to a question about what things/situations motivated him. Moss has said multiple times that "I play when I want to play" meant he motivated himself. That he didn't need outside forces to motivate him. Moss always wanted to play.

That said, I doubt he'd be a good coach, but not for the reasons you said. But because great players very rarely make good coaches. Its the guys who couldn't quite make it, or had to scratch and claw just to make the end of a roster for years that tend to be the best coaches.
Post #: 2652
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 1:37:24 AM   
JT2

 

Posts: 13056
Joined: 2/15/2011
From: United States
Status: online
It's so strange how we bolster mediocrity and critique excellence
Post #: 2653
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 8:28:07 AM   
Bill Jandro

 

Posts: 14096
Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

Some Vikings fans thought Gerhart was a great draft pick. Some of them even dug in, even after he left. Some fans wanted to be patient with Ponder. No names, you know who you are, be patient with Troy Williamson.

Meanwhile, Moss is criticized. That's really weird to me.


Two Pick Toby

ah the memories

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft
Post #: 2654
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 8:34:55 AM   
Bill Jandro

 

Posts: 14096
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

Spielman has overseen 12 drafts...

“Neglected the offensive line like a red headed stepchild” and “ constanty playing catch-up” are hyperbole, and yet those statements are ingrained “facts” to the one who use that type of hyperbole.

12 drafts, 23 offensive line players
14 wide receivers
18 DB or Safety’s
16 linebackers
Only 5 quarterbacks..

Who needs Quarterbacks in the draft when you can just spend 1/5 of your cap for someone else’s castoffs?


4 in the first 3 rounds. Add Beavers and Clemmings and its 6 in the Top 4 rounds.

17 of 23 picks in Rounds 5, 6 and 7.



Both are pretty crazy numbers. Only 4 top 3 round lineman in 12 years. And two of those in the last two years.

19 oline 4th round or later picks and virtually none of them developed into high quality players.

Quite an indictment on drafting and developing one of the most important areas on the team.


Maybe he doesn't take O-Linemen high because he knows he has no idea how to evaluate them?

Ricks job is to build a balanced team. He has scouts and coaches that recommend players but his job to choose which one and where in the draft. If their recommendations are bad he should get new scouts. Your only as good as the people under you.

Only 6 of 23 picks prior to rd 5 in 12 years really is a fireable offense.

That is not building a balanced team that's neglecting an important unit.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft
Post #: 2655
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 9:00:06 AM   
Phil Riewer


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From: MN
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Rick has done a good job of drafting....just think of the injuries to Floyd, Bridgewater, Kalil and Loadholt. How those four specifically cost us draft picks and resources to replace over the years.

Many bitch about using draft picks on oline and conveniently forget Loadholt and Kalil were drafted and how injuries hit them. Reiff, Remmers, Long, Smith, O'Neil are examples of resources needed to recover from Loadholt and Kalil injuries. Richardson is an example of a resource needed to replace Floyd. Just think of the money and draft picks to replace Bridgewater and what we could have used it on instead. It is one thing to draft well---another thing for players to stay healthy.

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 1/19/2019 9:02:24 AM >


_____________________________

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Post #: 2656
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 9:14:30 AM   
Phil Riewer


Posts: 15371
Joined: 8/24/2007
From: MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

Spielman has overseen 12 drafts...

“Neglected the offensive line like a red headed stepchild” and “ constanty playing catch-up” are hyperbole, and yet those statements are ingrained “facts” to the one who use that type of hyperbole.

12 drafts, 23 offensive line players
14 wide receivers
18 DB or Safety’s
16 linebackers
Only 5 quarterbacks..

Who needs Quarterbacks in the draft when you can just spend 1/5 of your cap for someone else’s castoffs?


4 in the first 3 rounds. Add Beavers and Clemmings and its 6 in the Top 4 rounds.

17 of 23 picks in Rounds 5, 6 and 7.



Both are pretty crazy numbers. Only 4 top 3 round lineman in 12 years. And two of those in the last two years.

19 oline 4th round or later picks and virtually none of them developed into high quality players.

Quite an indictment on drafting and developing one of the most important areas on the team.


Maybe he doesn't take O-Linemen high because he knows he has no idea how to evaluate them?

Ricks job is to build a balanced team. He has scouts and coaches that recommend players but his job to choose which one and where in the draft. If their recommendations are bad he should get new scouts. Your only as good as the people under you.

Only 6 of 23 picks prior to rd 5 in 12 years really is a fireable offense.

That is not building a balanced team that's neglecting an important unit.

Gerhart, CPatt, Harvin, Ponder, Bridgewater, RT Cook, Loadholt, AP, Dalvin Cook, O'Neil, Rudolph, 2017 1st round pick for Bradford, and Treadwell?

He has Drafted RT Cook, Loadholt, Kalil, O'Neil----what would 2017 1st round pick have been if they hadn't used it on Bradford.

< Message edited by Phil Riewer -- 1/19/2019 9:25:41 AM >


_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 2657
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 10:14:56 AM   
Bill Jandro

 

Posts: 14096
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Status: online
In the end this is a results orientated business.

I appreciate your "cup half full" mentality Phil but all your offering are excuses.

_____________________________

Oline...early and often this draft
Post #: 2658
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 10:15:05 AM   
Bill Johanesen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

sd


POST OF THE YEAR!
Post #: 2659
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 10:20:23 AM   
Bill Johanesen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

I will say that I am sorry for the vitriol on here today.

I was insulted and didn't take it well. I apologize to all the other posters including Pager and DL.

It's sad one can't have a conversation on here without someone being an insulting jerk And I admit I went too far. But others did too.

Peace.


You need to work on your apology skills. Fist you say it was because you were "insulted" (which is really a stretch), then you indirectly label each as an "insulting jerk", and to top it off you say they went too far!

WOW!
Post #: 2660
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 10:22:37 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 16667
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Sykes

Mark Craig
‏Verified account @markcraignfl
Jan 16

Mark Craig Retweeted Access Vikings

In 22 years as an NFL OC or head coach, Kubiak’s teams have run the ball 47 percent of the time. That’s plenty enough to saddle up alongside Zimmer.



The thing with that is the data goes back 22 years, back to times when the ball was run more. Might be better to see the last 5 years. BUT, Kubiak is enough of a dinosaur to get Zimmer excited.
Post #: 2661
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 10:23:48 AM   
thebigo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

In the end this is a results orientated business.

I appreciate your "cup half full" mentality Phil but all your offering are excuses.


And all you're offering is arm chair quarterbacking.
Post #: 2662
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 10:25:26 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 16667
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jbusse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

I will say that I am sorry for the vitriol on here today.

I was insulted and didn't take it well. I apologize to all the other posters including Pager and DL.

It's sad one can't have a conversation on here without someone being an insulting jerk And I admit I went too far. But others did too.

Peace.


You guys are all good posters. I appreciate you all.

Elflein had a tough sophomore year and I don't believe he was 100%. Still, good centers can be found in the mid rounds. I wanted Daniels last year. One option is for Elflein to switch to guard if we find a really good center in the draft. say in the third round. It might be good insurance in case Elflein doesn't come back to his rookie year form. I don't have the inside information on Elflein.

Also, I'm wondering if we make a scheme change on the line again next year. It may depend on who the offensive line coach is what he can bring to the team. Being that we are bringing former Denver Broncos coaches to the offense, my hunch is that we will stick with the zone blocking scheme, though. Maybe it's good to see some continuity. Every year there is a new offensive line coach and there are wholesale changes in personnel. With that in mind, I really do hope Elflein returns to form. That will help if there are three starters returning to their same positions.



Good post Bruce. Free Agency is also deeper at the center position. Guard drops off pretty rapidly after Saffold, while centers seems to have more upgrade type options. Getting a veteran stud at center might do more for the guard positions than anything. Then you have more flexibility with the draft. If the right guy falls to you at 18, scoop him up. But you don't have to reach. Have Easton, Elflien, and rookie competing for 2 spots.

I'd be talking with Elf already, see if he's open to it.

I'm not sure I'd count on much from Easton. He wasn't that good to begin with, and the recent experience is it takes a long while for o-lineman to regain their form after season ending injuries. John Sullivan, Fusco, and Elflein, for example.



I don't think it is a given that Elf's poor performance was due to the effects of the injury. Now, it may have been but some here just state that was the reason.
Post #: 2663
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 10:39:22 AM   
Phil Riewer


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From: MN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

In the end this is a results orientated business.

I appreciate your "cup half full" mentality Phil but all your offering are excuses.


Nope...it is a sh&^ happens post. He drafted Oline over the last 12 years with a horrible OT pick in Cook and good ones in Loadholt, Kalil, and so far O'Neil. Sometimes injuries dictate a lot...Kalil, Loadholt, Bridgewater injuries created a lot of moves.

_____________________________

SSG Riewer, Greg A Co 2/136 CAB
KIA 23 March 2007 Habbaniyah Iraq
Post #: 2664
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 10:48:38 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 16667
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

In the end this is a results orientated business.

I appreciate your "cup half full" mentality Phil but all your offering are excuses.



Excuses and hyperbole are standard. Every team in the league has players with bad injuries that disrupt the 'plan'.

Plus he adds in Jake Long types as examples of pouring in resources. What was his salary for signing him in season? At the MOST it was vet minimum.
Post #: 2665
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 10:49:46 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 16667
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

In the end this is a results orientated business.

I appreciate your "cup half full" mentality Phil but all your offering are excuses.


Nope...it is a sh&^ happens post. He drafted Oline over the last 12 years with a horrible OT pick in Cook and good ones in Loadholt, Kalil, and so far O'Neil. Sometimes injuries dictate a lot...Kalil, Loadholt, Bridgewater injuries created a lot of moves.



Kalil started to suck his second year BEFORE the injuries.
Post #: 2666
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 10:55:35 AM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 16667
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

Spielman has overseen 12 drafts...

“Neglected the offensive line like a red headed stepchild” and “ constanty playing catch-up” are hyperbole, and yet those statements are ingrained “facts” to the one who use that type of hyperbole.

12 drafts, 23 offensive line players
14 wide receivers
18 DB or Safety’s
16 linebackers
Only 5 quarterbacks..

Who needs Quarterbacks in the draft when you can just spend 1/5 of your cap for someone else’s castoffs?


4 in the first 3 rounds. Add Beavers and Clemmings and its 6 in the Top 4 rounds.

17 of 23 picks in Rounds 5, 6 and 7.

So who do you pass on in those twelve drafts to get pro bowl caliber offensive linemen?

Christian Ponder, for sure... others?


Marcus McCauley, Tyrell Johnson, Asher Allen, Chris Cook, Toby Gerhart, Josh Robinson, Scott Crichton, Laquan Treadwell...



A mere four OL picks in the first three rounds over TWELVE years SHOULD have closed the case, but that who's who of draft head-scratchers and busts deep sixes it.
Post #: 2667
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 10:55:54 AM   
David Levine


Posts: 65557
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Jandro

In the end this is a results orientated business.

I appreciate your "cup half full" mentality Phil but all your offering are excuses.


Nope...it is a sh&^ happens post. He drafted Oline over the last 12 years with a horrible OT pick in Cook and good ones in Loadholt, Kalil, and so far O'Neil. Sometimes injuries dictate a lot...Kalil, Loadholt, Bridgewater injuries created a lot of moves.


I don't buy what you're spinning.

Injuries happen and smart teams plan for it. He's absolutely neglected the O-Line, relying on "shots in the dark" for the most part:

4 in the first 3 rounds in 12 years. Add Beavers and Clemmings and its 6 in the Top 4 rounds.

17 of 23 picks in Rounds 5, 6 and 7. That's negligence.
Post #: 2668
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 10:57:31 AM   
David Levine


Posts: 65557
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

It's so strange how we bolster mediocrity and critique excellence


Its seems a very Minnesotan (across all sports) thing to blame the best players for the failings of a team.
Post #: 2669
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 11:28:23 AM   
Pager


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Bill - that's a good point on Elf. I agree the team shouldn't view him as "having arrived".

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.
Post #: 2670
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 11:48:27 AM   
CPAMAN

 

Posts: 31750
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

Spielman has overseen 12 drafts...

“Neglected the offensive line like a red headed stepchild” and “ constanty playing catch-up” are hyperbole, and yet those statements are ingrained “facts” to the one who use that type of hyperbole.

12 drafts, 23 offensive line players
14 wide receivers
18 DB or Safety’s
16 linebackers
Only 5 quarterbacks..

Who needs Quarterbacks in the draft when you can just spend 1/5 of your cap for someone else’s castoffs?


4 in the first 3 rounds. Add Beavers and Clemmings and its 6 in the Top 4 rounds.

17 of 23 picks in Rounds 5, 6 and 7.

So who do you pass on in those twelve drafts to get pro bowl caliber offensive linemen?

Christian Ponder, for sure... others?


Marcus McCauley, Tyrell Johnson, Asher Allen, Chris Cook, Toby Gerhart, Josh Robinson, Scott Crichton, Laquan Treadwell...


That is a good list of some really terrible players, none of whom proved to be even close to being NFL quality players.

_____________________________

Minnesota professional sports can't be awful forever, can they?
Post #: 2671
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 11:54:18 AM   
CPAMAN

 

Posts: 31750
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Viking Rich

Coach Moss???

That would be Sweet!

www.dailynorseman.com/2019/1/17/18187658/coach-randy-moss-wide-receiver-coach-minnesota-vikings

I don't think so. Moss was all speed, height, jumping ability. He didn't run great routes or give great effort. He was born with superb tools and didn't get as much out of them as he could have. Not great coaching material in my book.


Couldn't disagree more.

Randy Moss="I play when I want to play."


Yup, Moss demeanor and attitude is what coined the Denny Green classic, "Nobody plays like we play, when we play".

_____________________________

Minnesota professional sports can't be awful forever, can they?
Post #: 2672
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 12:01:06 PM   
Bill Johanesen


Posts: 16667
Status: offline
It was interesting to view about 15 minutes of an ESPN show ~ Mel Kiper's draft. I guess the players were slotted according to Kiper. McShay would talk about the pick, the draft #, and alternatives time and again referring to his view of better fits for today's game.

Kiper wouldn't say anything but I couldn't help but think Kiper projects to Zimmer watching but not realizing things have changed right in front of them. Like Chris Berman and John Madden, they once kept ratings up so it will take a while before they are ushered out because they have nothing new to offer.
Post #: 2673
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 12:19:16 PM   
stfrank

 

Posts: 6794
Joined: 7/22/2007
From: Twin Cities
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

Spielman has overseen 12 drafts...

“Neglected the offensive line like a red headed stepchild” and “ constanty playing catch-up” are hyperbole, and yet those statements are ingrained “facts” to the one who use that type of hyperbole.

12 drafts, 23 offensive line players
14 wide receivers
18 DB or Safety’s
16 linebackers
Only 5 quarterbacks..

Who needs Quarterbacks in the draft when you can just spend 1/5 of your cap for someone else’s castoffs?


4 in the first 3 rounds. Add Beavers and Clemmings and its 6 in the Top 4 rounds.

17 of 23 picks in Rounds 5, 6 and 7.

So who do you pass on in those twelve drafts to get pro bowl caliber offensive linemen?

Christian Ponder, for sure... others?


Marcus McCauley, Tyrell Johnson, Asher Allen, Chris Cook, Toby Gerhart, Josh Robinson, Scott Crichton, Laquan Treadwell...



A mere four OL picks in the first three rounds over TWELVE years SHOULD have closed the case, but that who's who of draft head-scratchers and busts deep sixes it.

And to think our dominant offensive line from '98 had 3 1st round picks on it. I sure hope Spielman can learn from the past.
Post #: 2674
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 12:50:51 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 65557
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stfrank

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Johanesen

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

Spielman has overseen 12 drafts...

“Neglected the offensive line like a red headed stepchild” and “ constanty playing catch-up” are hyperbole, and yet those statements are ingrained “facts” to the one who use that type of hyperbole.

12 drafts, 23 offensive line players
14 wide receivers
18 DB or Safety’s
16 linebackers
Only 5 quarterbacks..

Who needs Quarterbacks in the draft when you can just spend 1/5 of your cap for someone else’s castoffs?


4 in the first 3 rounds. Add Beavers and Clemmings and its 6 in the Top 4 rounds.

17 of 23 picks in Rounds 5, 6 and 7.

So who do you pass on in those twelve drafts to get pro bowl caliber offensive linemen?

Christian Ponder, for sure... others?


Marcus McCauley, Tyrell Johnson, Asher Allen, Chris Cook, Toby Gerhart, Josh Robinson, Scott Crichton, Laquan Treadwell...



A mere four OL picks in the first three rounds over TWELVE years SHOULD have closed the case, but that who's who of draft head-scratchers and busts deep sixes it.

And to think our dominant offensive line from '98 had 3 1st round picks on it. I sure hope Spielman can learn from the past.


The Colts realized they had a terrible line, so they actually did something about it:

They drafted OL in the 1st (6) and 2nd (37) rounds this year.

They've spent a ton of high picks building their line:

2018, R1, Pick 6: LG Quenton Nelson
2018. R2, Pick 37: RT Braden Smith
2016: R1, Pick 18: C Ryan Kelly
2015: R4, Pick 134: RG Mark Glowinski
2011: R1, Pick 22: LT Anthony Castonzo
Post #: 2675
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