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RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 4:50:19 PM   
The Happy Norseman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Happy Norseman

quote:

ORIGINAL: hagar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bruce Johnson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trekgeekscott

I will say that I am sorry for the vitriol on here today.

I was insulted and didn't take it well. I apologize to all the other posters including Pager and DL.

It's sad one can't have a conversation on here without someone being an insulting jerk And I admit I went too far. But others did too.

Peace.


You guys are all good posters. I appreciate you all.

Elflein had a tough sophomore year and I don't believe he was 100%. Still, good centers can be found in the mid rounds. I wanted Daniels last year. One option is for Elflein to switch to guard if we find a really good center in the draft. say in the third round. It might be good insurance in case Elflein doesn't come back to his rookie year form. I don't have the inside information on Elflein.

Also, I'm wondering if we make a scheme change on the line again next year. It may depend on who the offensive line coach is what he can bring to the team. Being that we are bringing former Denver Broncos coaches to the offense, my hunch is that we will stick with the zone blocking scheme, though. Maybe it's good to see some continuity. Every year there is a new offensive line coach and there are wholesale changes in personnel. With that in mind, I really do hope Elflein returns to form. That will help if there are three starters returning to their same positions.



Good post Bruce. Free Agency is also deeper at the center position. Guard drops off pretty rapidly after Saffold, while centers seems to have more upgrade type options. Getting a veteran stud at center might do more for the guard positions than anything. Then you have more flexibility with the draft. If the right guy falls to you at 18, scoop him up. But you don't have to reach. Have Easton, Elflien, and rookie competing for 2 spots.

I'd be talking with Elf already, see if he's open to it.



After the draft Elf said his preference was Guard, so, I bet he'd be more than happy to move over
unless he's changed his mind since then.


This would mean Spielman blew the off-season again. He needs to ensure that the offensive line doesn't go into next season with any big question marks. Relying on moving Elf to guard and hoping that it works out is a failing proposition. In the offseason RS needs to sign a top tier guard like Saffold, plus a solid, consistent guard, plus Easton to a vet minimum deal. Then he needs to draft a guard or tackle in the first and another one in the 2nd or 3rd. Enough with signing guys and "hoping" they play well in a new position, or have recovered after an injury, or can be coached up because they've always sucked. The only thing that has worked at all for RS is using high draft picks on olinemen, or signing FA with proven track records. Late round guys and scrap heap free agents are late round guys and on the scrap heap for a reason. After this past year Spielman better have finally come to that realization.


Unless, of course, it works out.


Spielman got the Vikings into this mess because that's how he thinks. He hopes that things will work out, yet they never have. If he still hasn't figured that out, then this team is going to have the same problems next year, and that will be the end of his tenure with the Vikings.


Let's be clear, EVERY GM hopes that things will work out. And you are wrong that they never have. Some things have worked out pretty well. Diggs and Theilen for example.


I’m specifically referring to the oline which Spielman has continually treated like a red-headed step-child.

_____________________________

If the Cubs can win the World Series...
Post #: 2626
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 6:21:05 PM   
JT2

 

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That's the problem with being in a constant state of catch up. You neglect an area for so long, it becomes a big problem (QB, Coverage LB's, TE's, and now OL). The game changes, and we have been one of the slowest to recognize this. We end up in a situation where we have to invest heavily in one area, meanwhile we overestimate the "okay" areas.

To that point, Treadwell for sure, and Rudolph next season. No doubt in my mind that Spielman and Zimmer think he his integral to our success.
Post #: 2627
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 6:32:29 PM   
Todd M

 

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Two premium FA slots - 1a and 1b top tier money guys, and two premium draft slots - R1 & R2 to clean up 3 major holes..

Two OL starters and the TE field stretcher. I don't care what the 4th shot is or what it lands. Get these 3 things right and be smart enough to back it with a heavier than avg dose of later round guys, fringe players, and UDFA's that this new regime of coaches can solely comb over and groom and get as a 10 or 11 we can hang our hat on.

_____________________________

Waking up.
Post #: 2628
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 7:06:36 PM   
Daniel Lee Young


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Spielman has overseen 12 drafts...

“Neglected the offensive line like a red headed stepchild” and “ constanty playing catch-up” are hyperbole, and yet those statements are ingrained “facts” to the one who use that type of hyperbole.

12 drafts, 23 offensive line players
14 wide receivers
18 DB or Safety’s
16 linebackers
Only 5 quarterbacks..

Who needs Quarterbacks in the draft when you can just spend 1/5 of your cap for someone else’s castoffs?

_____________________________

"Thou shall not bear false witness"
There will be hell to pay.
Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the “M” is silent.......
Post #: 2629
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 7:17:22 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 65557
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

Spielman has overseen 12 drafts...

“Neglected the offensive line like a red headed stepchild” and “ constanty playing catch-up” are hyperbole, and yet those statements are ingrained “facts” to the one who use that type of hyperbole.

12 drafts, 23 offensive line players
14 wide receivers
18 DB or Safety’s
16 linebackers
Only 5 quarterbacks..

Who needs Quarterbacks in the draft when you can just spend 1/5 of your cap for someone else’s castoffs?


4 in the first 3 rounds. Add Beavers and Clemmings and its 6 in the Top 4 rounds.

17 of 23 picks in Rounds 5, 6 and 7.
Post #: 2630
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 7:24:33 PM   
Viking Rich

 

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Good article on how the Vikings can make moves to clear up cap space for the upcoming season:

https://247sports.com/nfl/minnesota-vikings/LongFormArticle/Vikings-salary-cap-space-2019-how-to-clear-127924887/

Using Over The Cap's calculator with the moves the author projects, he has the Vikings with just over $54 million to play with heading into free agency and the official start of the 2019 offseason.

_____________________________

History Shows Us That if a Head Coach Does Not Win a Super Bowl Within 5 Years of His Hire, He Never Will.

Mike Zimmer Just Completed Year Five...
Post #: 2631
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 7:34:42 PM   
Daniel Lee Young


Posts: 4613
Joined: 9/21/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

Spielman has overseen 12 drafts...

“Neglected the offensive line like a red headed stepchild” and “ constanty playing catch-up” are hyperbole, and yet those statements are ingrained “facts” to the one who use that type of hyperbole.

12 drafts, 23 offensive line players
14 wide receivers
18 DB or Safety’s
16 linebackers
Only 5 quarterbacks..

Who needs Quarterbacks in the draft when you can just spend 1/5 of your cap for someone else’s castoffs?


4 in the first 3 rounds. Add Beavers and Clemmings and its 6 in the Top 4 rounds.

17 of 23 picks in Rounds 5, 6 and 7.

So who do you pass on in those twelve drafts to get pro bowl caliber offensive linemen?

Christian Ponder, for sure... others?

_____________________________

"Thou shall not bear false witness"
There will be hell to pay.
Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the “M” is silent.......
Post #: 2632
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 7:37:46 PM   
Pager


Posts: 8535
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

Spielman has overseen 12 drafts...

“Neglected the offensive line like a red headed stepchild” and “ constanty playing catch-up” are hyperbole, and yet those statements are ingrained “facts” to the one who use that type of hyperbole.

12 drafts, 23 offensive line players
14 wide receivers
18 DB or Safety’s
16 linebackers
Only 5 quarterbacks..

Who needs Quarterbacks in the draft when you can just spend 1/5 of your cap for someone else’s castoffs?


4 in the first 3 rounds. Add Beavers and Clemmings and its 6 in the Top 4 rounds.

17 of 23 picks in Rounds 5, 6 and 7.



Both are pretty crazy numbers. Only 4 top 3 round lineman in 12 years. And two of those in the last two years.

19 oline 4th round or later picks and virtually none of them developed into high quality players.

Quite an indictment on drafting and developing one of the most important areas on the team.

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.
Post #: 2633
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 7:38:08 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 65557
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

Spielman has overseen 12 drafts...

“Neglected the offensive line like a red headed stepchild” and “ constanty playing catch-up” are hyperbole, and yet those statements are ingrained “facts” to the one who use that type of hyperbole.

12 drafts, 23 offensive line players
14 wide receivers
18 DB or Safety’s
16 linebackers
Only 5 quarterbacks..

Who needs Quarterbacks in the draft when you can just spend 1/5 of your cap for someone else’s castoffs?


4 in the first 3 rounds. Add Beavers and Clemmings and its 6 in the Top 4 rounds.

17 of 23 picks in Rounds 5, 6 and 7.

So who do you pass on in those twelve drafts to get pro bowl caliber offensive linemen?

Christian Ponder, for sure... others?


Marcus McCauley, Tyrell Johnson, Asher Allen, Chris Cook, Toby Gerhart, Josh Robinson, Scott Crichton, Laquan Treadwell...
Post #: 2634
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 7:39:44 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 65557
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pager

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

Spielman has overseen 12 drafts...

“Neglected the offensive line like a red headed stepchild” and “ constanty playing catch-up” are hyperbole, and yet those statements are ingrained “facts” to the one who use that type of hyperbole.

12 drafts, 23 offensive line players
14 wide receivers
18 DB or Safety’s
16 linebackers
Only 5 quarterbacks..

Who needs Quarterbacks in the draft when you can just spend 1/5 of your cap for someone else’s castoffs?


4 in the first 3 rounds. Add Beavers and Clemmings and its 6 in the Top 4 rounds.

17 of 23 picks in Rounds 5, 6 and 7.



Both are pretty crazy numbers. Only 4 top 3 round lineman in 12 years. And two of those in the last two years.

19 oline 4th round or later picks and virtually none of them developed into high quality players.

Quite an indictment on drafting and developing one of the most important areas on the team.


Maybe he doesn't take O-Linemen high because he knows he has no idea how to evaluate them?
Post #: 2635
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 7:41:29 PM   
Pager


Posts: 8535
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Viking Rich

Good article on how the Vikings can make moves to clear up cap space for the upcoming season:

https://247sports.com/nfl/minnesota-vikings/LongFormArticle/Vikings-salary-cap-space-2019-how-to-clear-127924887/

Using Over The Cap's calculator with the moves the author projects, he has the Vikings with just over $54 million to play with heading into free agency and the official start of the 2019 offseason.



This guy just about nails my thoughts for players and contracts. I don't think keeping Ruddy here on a restructured deal would be bad at all, IF we get a another TE (dynamic) to pair him with. So cut that number down to 48M (giving Thielan a raise).

_____________________________

Left picking up the pieces.
Post #: 2636
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 7:56:01 PM   
JT2

 

Posts: 13056
Joined: 2/15/2011
From: United States
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daniel Lee Young

Spielman has overseen 12 drafts...

“Neglected the offensive line like a red headed stepchild” and “ constanty playing catch-up” are hyperbole, and yet those statements are ingrained “facts” to the one who use that type of hyperbole.

12 drafts, 23 offensive line players
14 wide receivers
18 DB or Safety’s
16 linebackers
Only 5 quarterbacks..

Who needs Quarterbacks in the draft when you can just spend 1/5 of your cap for someone else’s castoffs?


4 in the first 3 rounds. Add Beavers and Clemmings and its 6 in the Top 4 rounds.

17 of 23 picks in Rounds 5, 6 and 7.

So who do you pass on in those twelve drafts to get pro bowl caliber offensive linemen?

Christian Ponder, for sure... others?


Marcus McCauley, Tyrell Johnson, Asher Allen, Chris Cook, Toby Gerhart, Josh Robinson, Scott Crichton, Laquan Treadwell...


Watch your mouth. Gerhart was favorably compared to Bo Jackson in here.
Post #: 2637
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 8:00:24 PM   
JT2

 

Posts: 13056
Joined: 2/15/2011
From: United States
Status: online
Unfortunately, quality scouting matters. Understanding the fluid nature and direction of the game also matters.

How many HC's went to Kamara's Pro-Day? How many recognized and worked him out as a WR?
How many GM's had Ponder and Manziel on their big board?

Last modern-game TE we drafted? Stuck on Greenway forever, how many coverage LB's are on that list?

Maybe we should just feel good because other teams missed too?

I remember when people hated McKinnie. My goodness, I wish we had a McKinnie now.

As an aside, it's hard to take Dan serious on Viking football. One day he berates posters for questioning Zimmer. 10 days later he calls for Zimmer's firing.
Post #: 2638
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 8:14:17 PM   
David Levine


Posts: 65557
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

Unfortunately, quality scouting matters. Understanding the fluid nature and direction of the game also matters.

How many HC's went to Kamara's Pro-Day? How many recognized and worked him out as a WR?
How many GM's had Ponder and Manziel on their big board?

Last modern-game TE we drafted? Stuck on Greenway forever, how many coverage LB's are on that list?

Maybe we should just feel good because other teams missed too?

I remember when people hated McKinnie. My goodness, I wish we had a McKinnie now.

As an aside, it's hard to take Dan serious on Viking football. One day he berates posters for questioning Zimmer. 10 days later he calls for Zimmer's firing.


I'm pretty sure Hodges (4th round) was the highest LB Spielman drafted before Barr.
Post #: 2639
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 9:43:30 PM   
Daniel Lee Young


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Hey Pete “I can’t use my real name because I said I was leaving forever “Christianson, I have never said “ fire Zimmer” , I have questioned his calling time outs and challenging stupid chit, but I guess if all you do is drink and bet to recoup your gambling losses, you are easily confused ..

Get help.

_____________________________

"Thou shall not bear false witness"
There will be hell to pay.
Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the “M” is silent.......
Post #: 2640
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 10:25:28 PM   
JT2

 

Posts: 13056
Joined: 2/15/2011
From: United States
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Apparently your much talked about blocked feature has failed you. Or maybe you're full of shit.

By the way, pretty sure your real name wasn't Danimal, was it? I know, you're a new man. Good for you, and I hope it's sustainable.

Plenty of people in here know my real name, maybe too many.

As far as drinking, I drink a shit ton of water. I also drink a lot of wine, I enjoy both. I also like DMT, acid and mushrooms. Your point?

Yeah, the gambling has me itching and destitute. Now you're a snowflake? You have a philosophical/societal/personal issue with gambling?

You're a drama queen.

I'm curious how certain you are that you never said Zimmer should be fired. Wanna' bet?

Yeah, you did say it. Dig your hole a little deeper.

< Message edited by JT2 -- 1/19/2019 12:51:53 AM >
Post #: 2641
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 10:37:24 PM   
bstinger

 

Posts: 7262
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Viking Rich

Coach Moss???

That would be Sweet!

www.dailynorseman.com/2019/1/17/18187658/coach-randy-moss-wide-receiver-coach-minnesota-vikings

I don't think so. Moss was all speed, height, jumping ability. He didn't run great routes or give great effort. He was born with superb tools and didn't get as much out of them as he could have. Not great coaching material in my book.

_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan
Post #: 2642
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 11:02:17 PM   
thebigo


Posts: 24978
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Viking Rich

Coach Moss???

That would be Sweet!

www.dailynorseman.com/2019/1/17/18187658/coach-randy-moss-wide-receiver-coach-minnesota-vikings

I don't think so. Moss was all speed, height, jumping ability. He didn't run great routes or give great effort. He was born with superb tools and didn't get as much out of them as he could have. Not great coaching material in my book.


Moss had great football IQ.
Post #: 2643
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 11:09:24 PM   
JT2

 

Posts: 13056
Joined: 2/15/2011
From: United States
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Viking Rich

Coach Moss???

That would be Sweet!

www.dailynorseman.com/2019/1/17/18187658/coach-randy-moss-wide-receiver-coach-minnesota-vikings

I don't think so. Moss was all speed, height, jumping ability. He didn't run great routes or give great effort. He was born with superb tools and didn't get as much out of them as he could have. Not great coaching material in my book.


Couldn't disagree more.
Post #: 2644
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 11:11:03 PM   
JT2

 

Posts: 13056
Joined: 2/15/2011
From: United States
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: thebigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Viking Rich

Coach Moss???

That would be Sweet!

www.dailynorseman.com/2019/1/17/18187658/coach-randy-moss-wide-receiver-coach-minnesota-vikings

I don't think so. Moss was all speed, height, jumping ability. He didn't run great routes or give great effort. He was born with superb tools and didn't get as much out of them as he could have. Not great coaching material in my book.


Moss had great football IQ.


He was so much more than the physical freak.
Post #: 2645
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 11:14:29 PM  1 votes
bstinger

 

Posts: 7262
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

quote:

ORIGINAL: bstinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Viking Rich

Coach Moss???

That would be Sweet!

www.dailynorseman.com/2019/1/17/18187658/coach-randy-moss-wide-receiver-coach-minnesota-vikings

I don't think so. Moss was all speed, height, jumping ability. He didn't run great routes or give great effort. He was born with superb tools and didn't get as much out of them as he could have. Not great coaching material in my book.


Couldn't disagree more.

Randy Moss="I play when I want to play."

_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan
Post #: 2646
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 11:24:24 PM   
JT2

 

Posts: 13056
Joined: 2/15/2011
From: United States
Status: online
Didn't he kind of invent the idea of not looking for the ball too early? Don't get me wrong, when he blew by defenders, he put his arm up. But when contested, he never gave any tell to the DB that the ball was coming.

Possibly the best WR to ever play the game. I have a difficult time conversing with people that choose to criticize him.
Post #: 2647
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 11:32:32 PM   
bstinger

 

Posts: 7262
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: JT2

Didn't he kind of invent the idea of not looking for the ball too early? Don't get me wrong, when he blew by defenders, he put his arm up. But when contested, he never gave any tell to the DB that the ball was coming.

Possibly the best WR to ever play the game. I have a difficult time conversing with people that choose to criticize him.

Fine with me, I never asked for you to converse. The original post was about him being a good WR coach, not being a good WR. I don't consider his a good WR coaching candidate. If you do, give reasons why he'd be a good coach, not reasons why he was a good WR.

_____________________________

"You guys are true athletes!"

--twinsfan
Post #: 2648
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/18/2019 11:51:13 PM   
JT2

 

Posts: 13056
Joined: 2/15/2011
From: United States
Status: online
I have NO clue what kind of WR coach he could/would be.

Your "original" post was also about your opinion of his effort and route running, as a player. I don't agree with you on that, at all.

Arguably the best WR to ever play the game....that's who we critique?

You're right, turns out I can converse with Viking fans that have strange takes.
Post #: 2649
RE: General Vikes Talk - 1/19/2019 12:11:16 AM   
JT2

 

Posts: 13056
Joined: 2/15/2011
From: United States
Status: online
Some Vikings fans thought Gerhart was a great draft pick. Some of them even dug in, even after he left. Some fans wanted to be patient with Ponder. No names, you know who you are, be patient with Troy Williamson.

Meanwhile, Moss is criticized. That's really weird to me.
Post #: 2650
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