quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

i would not extend kirk. i would not extend Zim.

i would not panic if they do extend kirk

I think there is a way to get the prize with kirk, I do not think it will be BECAUSE of kirk, it might have to be a 9ers-ish type plan

get more Oline

i have said the last 3 years, this team will go as far as the Oline takes us


it will be interesting to see what happens with Defense this offseason


we do have to find a way to replace a probowl CB

No doubt about OL and DL strengths needed...

GM and HC should be under heavy scrutiny in their final year.

Im OK (YES REALLY) with extending Kirk to more years out with a heavy prorated signing bonus and low 2020 cap number. BUT this would have to be a more traditional type NFL contract with voidable or garbage numbers at end of contract as all other QBs get. Not this fully guaranteed contract with no trade clause stuff, that is just not sustainable to this teams well being at this point. I think that will be a huge sticking point between this GM and Agent for Kirk in any deal being made this year and Kirk has shown he has no problem playing on year to year deals in his past.

AS FOR OUR PROBOWL DB... does that mean we can get more in trade for him now?

Now there is something we can all agree on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Again, how does a 3 year, fully guaranteed contract differ from a "traditional" 5 year contract where only the first 3 years are guaranteed?

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Levine

Again, how does a 3 year, fully guaranteed contract differ from a "traditional" 5 year contract where only the first 3 years are guaranteed?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

i would not extend kirk. i would not extend Zim.

i would not panic if they do extend kirk

I think there is a way to get the prize with kirk, I do not think it will be BECAUSE of kirk, it might have to be a 9ers-ish type plan

get more Oline

i have said the last 3 years, this team will go as far as the Oline takes us


it will be interesting to see what happens with Defense this offseason


we do have to find a way to replace a probowl CB

Could his home state teams(Miami, Jacksonville) think they could get him back on track for a 7th rounder?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbusse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Anderson

quote:

ORIGINAL: drviking

i would not extend kirk. i would not extend Zim.

i would not panic if they do extend kirk

I think there is a way to get the prize with kirk, I do not think it will be BECAUSE of kirk, it might have to be a 9ers-ish type plan

get more Oline

i have said the last 3 years, this team will go as far as the Oline takes us


it will be interesting to see what happens with Defense this offseason


we do have to find a way to replace a probowl CB

Could his home state teams(Miami, Jacksonville) think they could get him back on track for a 7th rounder?

If traded, the team that gets him would face a $10.5 million cap hit unless the contract is restructered. Rhodes would seem to have an incentive to restructure.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

Im not trying to be totally polorizing on Kirk, his play or his contract, but they are big issues moving forward as should be with any team... All tied directly to issue long term with GM and HC. and all encapsulating the ability to sign strengths to fill holes and be competitive moving forward. Some very tough decisions by upper management will impact this team for another half a decade potentially in next months.

As for replacement QB, Im under impression if you continue to struggle to get pro bowl level or at least upper NFL O line play you must find a QB that is at least semi mobile and can make plays off schedule. Prefer to draft a young talent and take a chance they develop. That along with signing an available known journman talent for options. That said this can not be implemented until Kirk plays out his time and is allowed to walk from our cap in 2021. Unless Im missing some magical unicorn situational out that allows us to move on from Kirk this year its all his game.

How we play our cards on these issues in offseason this year will impact all other positions and management for future.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

Im not trying to be totally polorizing on Kirk, his play or his contract, but they are big issues moving forward as should be with any team... All tied directly to issue long term with GM and HC. and all encapsulating the ability to sign strengths to fill holes and be competitive moving forward. Some very tough decisions by upper management will impact this team for another half a decade potentially in next months.

As for replacement QB, Im under impression if you continue to struggle to get pro bowl level or at least upper NFL O line play you must find a QB that is at least semi mobile and can make plays off schedule. Prefer to draft a young talent and take a chance they develop. That along with signing an available known journman talent for options. That said this can not be implemented until Kirk plays out his time and is allowed to walk from our cap in 2021. Unless Im missing some magical unicorn situational out that allows us to move on from Kirk this year its all his game.

How we play our cards on these issues in offseason this year will impact all other positions and management for future.

It is almost like you think the Vikings have every hole on the team filled but Kirk? KC, SF, GB, and Balt are in a higher class than we are talent wise.....SF has the best team speed on Defense and best Run Blocking in NFC, KC has the Best Speed AFC on Offense, Baltimore has the best running game in the AFC along with Tenessee.
Was Zimmer wrong on the running game?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

Im not trying to be totally polorizing on Kirk, his play or his contract, but they are big issues moving forward as should be with any team... All tied directly to issue long term with GM and HC. and all encapsulating the ability to sign strengths to fill holes and be competitive moving forward. Some very tough decisions by upper management will impact this team for another half a decade potentially in next months.

As for replacement QB, Im under impression if you continue to struggle to get pro bowl level or at least upper NFL O line play you must find a QB that is at least semi mobile and can make plays off schedule. Prefer to draft a young talent and take a chance they develop. That along with signing an available known journman talent for options. That said this can not be implemented until Kirk plays out his time and is allowed to walk from our cap in 2021. Unless Im missing some magical unicorn situational out that allows us to move on from Kirk this year its all his game.

How we play our cards on these issues in offseason this year will impact all other positions and management for future.

It is almost like you think the Vikings have every hole on the team filled but Kirk? KC, SF, GB, and Balt are in a higher class than we are talent wise.....SF has the best team speed on Defense and best Run Blocking in NFC, KC has the Best Speed AFC on Offense, Baltimore has the best running game in the AFC along with Tenessee.
Was Zimmer wrong on the running game?

If he wants to run so bad it was wrong to pay two WR and a QB a combined $50 million.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

Im not trying to be totally polorizing on Kirk, his play or his contract, but they are big issues moving forward as should be with any team... All tied directly to issue long term with GM and HC. and all encapsulating the ability to sign strengths to fill holes and be competitive moving forward. Some very tough decisions by upper management will impact this team for another half a decade potentially in next months.

As for replacement QB, Im under impression if you continue to struggle to get pro bowl level or at least upper NFL O line play you must find a QB that is at least semi mobile and can make plays off schedule. Prefer to draft a young talent and take a chance they develop. That along with signing an available known journman talent for options. That said this can not be implemented until Kirk plays out his time and is allowed to walk from our cap in 2021. Unless Im missing some magical unicorn situational out that allows us to move on from Kirk this year its all his game.

How we play our cards on these issues in offseason this year will impact all other positions and management for future.

It is almost like you think the Vikings have every hole on the team filled but Kirk? KC, SF, GB, and Balt are in a higher class than we are talent wise.....SF has the best team speed on Defense and best Run Blocking in NFC, KC has the Best Speed AFC on Offense, Baltimore has the best running game in the AFC along with Tenessee.
Was Zimmer wrong on the running game?

If he wants to run so bad it was wrong to pay two WR and a QB a combined $50 million.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

Im not trying to be totally polorizing on Kirk, his play or his contract, but they are big issues moving forward as should be with any team... All tied directly to issue long term with GM and HC. and all encapsulating the ability to sign strengths to fill holes and be competitive moving forward. Some very tough decisions by upper management will impact this team for another half a decade potentially in next months.

As for replacement QB, Im under impression if you continue to struggle to get pro bowl level or at least upper NFL O line play you must find a QB that is at least semi mobile and can make plays off schedule. Prefer to draft a young talent and take a chance they develop. That along with signing an available known journman talent for options. That said this can not be implemented until Kirk plays out his time and is allowed to walk from our cap in 2021. Unless Im missing some magical unicorn situational out that allows us to move on from Kirk this year its all his game.

How we play our cards on these issues in offseason this year will impact all other positions and management for future.

It is almost like you think the Vikings have every hole on the team filled but Kirk? KC, SF, GB, and Balt are in a higher class than we are talent wise.....SF has the best team speed on Defense and best Run Blocking in NFC, KC has the Best Speed AFC on Offense, Baltimore has the best running game in the AFC along with Tenessee.
Was Zimmer wrong on the running game?

If he wants to run so bad it was wrong to pay two WR and a QB a combined $50 million.

Kirk threw for 26 TDs this year; on a running team. Pretty damn good unless you want a Tecmo Bowl Offense.
8th in TDs (with Mahomes, Rodgers, Watson) ahead of Brady

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

Im not trying to be totally polorizing on Kirk, his play or his contract, but they are big issues moving forward as should be with any team... All tied directly to issue long term with GM and HC. and all encapsulating the ability to sign strengths to fill holes and be competitive moving forward. Some very tough decisions by upper management will impact this team for another half a decade potentially in next months.

As for replacement QB, Im under impression if you continue to struggle to get pro bowl level or at least upper NFL O line play you must find a QB that is at least semi mobile and can make plays off schedule. Prefer to draft a young talent and take a chance they develop. That along with signing an available known journman talent for options. That said this can not be implemented until Kirk plays out his time and is allowed to walk from our cap in 2021. Unless Im missing some magical unicorn situational out that allows us to move on from Kirk this year its all his game.

How we play our cards on these issues in offseason this year will impact all other positions and management for future.

It is almost like you think the Vikings have every hole on the team filled but Kirk? KC, SF, GB, and Balt are in a higher class than we are talent wise.....SF has the best team speed on Defense and best Run Blocking in NFC, KC has the Best Speed AFC on Offense, Baltimore has the best running game in the AFC along with Tenessee.
Was Zimmer wrong on the running game?

If he wants to run so bad it was wrong to pay two WR and a QB a combined $50 million.

Kirk threw for 26 TDs this year; on a running team. Pretty damn good unless you want a Tecmo Bowl Offense.
8th in TDs (with Mahomes, Rodgers, Watson) ahead of Brady

So what are they? Seems to me their identity crisis on offense is a reason they have won so few big games the past two years.

If you just look at the stats against playoff teams the shine falls off PDQ.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

quote:

ORIGINAL: ronhextall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

Im not trying to be totally polorizing on Kirk, his play or his contract, but they are big issues moving forward as should be with any team... All tied directly to issue long term with GM and HC. and all encapsulating the ability to sign strengths to fill holes and be competitive moving forward. Some very tough decisions by upper management will impact this team for another half a decade potentially in next months.

As for replacement QB, Im under impression if you continue to struggle to get pro bowl level or at least upper NFL O line play you must find a QB that is at least semi mobile and can make plays off schedule. Prefer to draft a young talent and take a chance they develop. That along with signing an available known journman talent for options. That said this can not be implemented until Kirk plays out his time and is allowed to walk from our cap in 2021. Unless Im missing some magical unicorn situational out that allows us to move on from Kirk this year its all his game.

How we play our cards on these issues in offseason this year will impact all other positions and management for future.

It is almost like you think the Vikings have every hole on the team filled but Kirk? KC, SF, GB, and Balt are in a higher class than we are talent wise.....SF has the best team speed on Defense and best Run Blocking in NFC, KC has the Best Speed AFC on Offense, Baltimore has the best running game in the AFC along with Tenessee.
Was Zimmer wrong on the running game?

If he wants to run so bad it was wrong to pay two WR and a QB a combined $50 million.

And dont forget all that at the cost of neglecting the OL not only hampering your run first quest but also greatly deminishing your returns on QB and WR.

This is what you get when you have a HC and GM with differing mantras as to how an offense runs. Couple this with a revolving door at OC and schemes changing make for frustrating management of players used to their strengths meeting the value of the cap hit...

And make no mistake we see this on defense as well...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

IMHO in the era of Fantasy Football everyone is an armchair GM enamored by stats and flashy numbers, all to quickly forgetting about how plug and play equates when considered against what schemes the coordinators run and how that player fits both in play potential and cap issues.

Secondly and most overlooked is the issue of team chemistry... Players rise and fall in value to their team by what attitude they bring and how it equates to raising the level of play for all around them.

For that alone I would be willing to move on from Diggs and his pouting at times... get some value from him in trade potential while his numbers are good, Even with our admitted lack of WR skillset at the moment I would love to plug in a cheaper vet and evalute further some youth skillsets as well as lean heavier on our rookie TE... Use the cap for an upgrade at OL and run even more if Zimm wants... Hell run like SF did in the playoffs if you want with a stud or two on OL...

Have no idea where it would get us cap wise to move on from Diggs, as well as consider Rudy and even oft injured Cook, use the cap space for more glaring needs... Mattison, Boone, Ham and even Abdullah , if need be there are some good vet options at RB depth as well, just like SF did with semi no names at RB, its what Kubiaks system does with running backs (just as SF)

Let the young hungry skill set players take a step, Irv Smith, Alexander Mattison and Bisi / Dillon Mitchell could be huge is given a chance and opens up so much ability to re up some quality OL prospects.

Hell if available consider bringing back Jet if cut by SF and how about swapping Keenum for Mannion to back up Kirk...(oh the fun that would be)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

IMHO in the era of Fantasy Football everyone is an armchair GM enamored by stats and flashy numbers, all to quickly forgetting about how plug and play equates when considered against what schemes the coordinators run and how that player fits both in play potential and cap issues.

Secondly and most overlooked is the issue of team chemistry... Players rise and fall in value to their team by what attitude they bring and how it equates to raising the level of play for all around them.

For that alone I would be willing to move on from Diggs and his pouting at times... get some value from him in trade potential while his numbers are good, Even with our admitted lack of WR skillset at the moment I would love to plug in a cheaper vet and evalute further some youth skillsets as well as lean heavier on our rookie TE... Use the cap for an upgrade at OL and run even more if Zimm wants... Hell run like SF did in the playoffs if you want with a stud or two on OL...

Have no idea where it would get us cap wise to move on from Diggs, as well as consider Rudy and even oft injured Cook, use the cap space for more glaring needs... Mattison, Boone, Ham and even Abdullah , if need be there are some good vet options at RB depth as well, just like SF did with semi no names at RB, its what Kubiaks system does with running backs (just as SF)

Let the young hungry skill set players take a step, Irv Smith, Alexander Mattison and Bisi / Dillon Mitchell could be huge is given a chance and opens up so much ability to re up some quality OL prospects.

Hell if available consider bringing back Jet if cut by SF and how about swapping Keenum for Mannion to back up Kirk...(oh the fun that would be)

The one thing you don't do---bring back an rb that has been hurt almost every year of their existence; Asiata was more valuable as he could play each week. Stud RBs & WR are found after the 3rd round in the draft every year. Cook is hurt a lot; not going to get much back even if he is a top 3-5 rb in the league.

Lots of talent on this team that barely played: Irv, Boone, Collins, Holmes, Hercules, Meadors, Samia, Dozier, Odin, Watts, Udoh, Hollins, Mattison, and Boyd.

Hollins has passed Mitchell.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lars

KC is a 1.5 point fav?

I will take KC -1.5 all day long.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lars

I like Cook a lot, too. But there is NO way I give a huge contract to a RB. We did that once with AD.

If you spend the resources in the trenches, you have much more flexibility elsewhere, IMHO.

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ORIGINAL: Phil Riewer

Was Diggs underutilized this year?
63 Receptions 1130 Yards 6 TDs

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ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

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ORIGINAL: Pager

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ORIGINAL: Ragnarök

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ORIGINAL: Pager

Keenum and many QBs do many similar "brain activity" Keenum does hours of VR.

Maybe research what others do so there is a basis of comparison?

I know what QBs do to feel they are getting a competitive edge, I clearly post a link above showing Brady does much of what Kirk does... That wasnt my real motive to say he does these things, its more so to understand that maybe the level he takes it isnt helping, possibly tormenting him to overthink far too much.

It is real that he is hot and cold, good Kirk and Bad Kirk, it seems to translate some to in game elements but far surpasses shitty OL play making him panic. Its something else, the dynamic alone of winning percentage playing a normal Sunday day game as compared to non regular start time games is REAL. And its not correlative to the record of W/L of team he is playing.

I have been very heavy handed and outspoken in my disdain for the Vikings signing Kirk from the start and it was heavily based on this variable that seems to dictate his play and ability to be consistant. Yes he can be a great QB and have incredible stats, make dazzling plays... But something in how ge is wired is always there ready to derail it all... Its just hard to justify that in a franchize QB and continue to go all in.

Everyone has their own opinions on Kirk Cousins. I myself dont see him as getting us to the end game.

My analysis is pretty simple. When Kirk has time - he's elite. When he doesn't - he's not. Like almost every other QB not named Mahomes and Wilson.

Blah blah "most time in nfl". It's a garbage stat since we roll out at one of the highest frequency. I would love to see how much time Cousins has/takes in straight drop back situations. We still look pretty atrocious in pass blocking in those situations.

I wanted Cousins. Still do. Kyle Shanahan mourned when they resigned Jimmy G - ending the option to sign with Cousins. McVay almost got a tampering charge he was so enthusiastic when asked about Cousins prior to him hitting the market.

I take a lot more stock in guys that have coached with him and turned Jimmy G and Goff into Superbowl starting QBs than anyone else's opinion.

To me it's upgrade the oline, another year in the system, and improve game/opponent scheming. I think we can win with Cousins.

I like your thoughts and totally agree on what coaches and GMs see in Cousins... he is enamoring in stats and potential.

I will say Im not sure his entire play or lack there of, decision making and bad Kirk with the grimmace doesnt directly relate to pressure of the game, whether it be OL breakdown or come back wins, end of game or overtime pressure point decision making. To a point he may be better in those situations, and as we have seen inexplicably at times especially in first quarter of games when series of plays have been planned and practiced if things go not as Kirk planned in his head prior he seems to change his persona and play. I think he plays better when he just lets it rip and doesnt overthink everything and that may come from just how he is wired.